Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Honestly, it's iffy. Haganah's activities are probably the most relevant, given that they were the pre-cursor to the IDF. They were bombing civilian houses well pre-dating November 30th whilst other Jewish paramilitaries were bombing marketplaces, transport hubs and workplaces throughout December. These are organized military groups trained by, and acting with the backing of the Jewish authorities using weapons given to them by the Russians to undertake attacks on citizens. There's never a comparable Palestinian organization during the conflict, the first time there's any kind of concerted military action from their side was in February 1948, when a cobbled together force of 500 men blockaded Jerusalem.



There were Arab civilians murdered too. I'm not surprised that you don't see the difference between attacks and reprisals carried out by sections of the populace and the deployment of an organised military force to bomb civilian houses and drive innocents out of their homes - the government you constantly defend doesn't seem to either.

So the organized Jewish force was wrong to defend Jewish civilians because the Arab forces initially consisted of looting and murdering mobs and gangs? That the Arabs lacked organization and any national sentiments does not imply that organized Jewish forces did what they had to do, which was to defend their civilian population.

That Arab civilians feared reprisals for attacks on Jews and decided to leave in the months leading to the Arab invasion was only natural. Unfortunately for them, throwing the Jews to the sea never worked as they planned.
 
So the organized Jewish force was wrong to defend Jewish civilians because the Arab forces initially consisted of looting and murdering mobs and gangs? That the Arabs lacked organization and any national sentiments does not imply that organized Jewish forces did what they had to do, which was to defend their civilian population.

That Arab civilians feared reprisals for attacks on Jews and decided to leave in the months leading to the Arab invasion was only natural. Unfortunately for them, throwing the Jews to the sea never worked as they planned.

There were no 'Arab forces' until well into 1978, whereas the organized Jewish forces had been killing civilians and bombing their houses for months by then. It's very clear why you're on the side of the debate you're on when in your head 'defending the Jewish civilian population' means 'killing the Arab civilian population'. This 'looking after our own and it's okay if a few Arabs die' approach that the Israeli authorities have always taken and which you support is racism pure and simple. That's not to say that there isn't racism on the other side, because there clearly is, but I fail to see how yours is any more justified.
 
There were no 'Arab forces' until well into 1978, whereas the organized Jewish forces had been killing civilians and bombing their houses for months by then. It's very clear why you're on the side of the debate you're on when in your head 'defending the Jewish civilian population' means 'killing the Arab civilian population'. This 'looking after our own and it's okay if a few Arabs die' approach that the Israeli authorities have always taken and which you support is racism pure and simple. That's not to say that there isn't racism on the other side, because there clearly is, but I fail to see how yours is any more justified.

That's a revisionist history, just as your acount of events leading to the 1967 war.

ALA forces started training and infiltrated Mandatory Palestine in 1947. By the Arab gangs operated in the Jerusalem area, Jaffa and Lower Galilee. That the Kaukjis and Al-huseinis didn't get along together was none of our business. The two things they could agree on was the plan they had for Jews and collaboration with Nazi Germany during WW2.

I guess Jews need to apologise for organizing their defense forces given rhe threat for Jewish existence here. Just like for Iron Dome and prevention of high death toll from the Gaza missiles. Some things never change.
 
That's a revisionist history, just as your acount of events leading to the 1967 war.

ALA forces started training and infiltrated Mandatory Palestine in 1947. By the Arab gangs operated in the Jerusalem area, Jaffa and Lower Galilee. That the Kaukjis and Al-huseinis didn't get along together was none of our business. The two things they could agree on was the plan they had for Jews and collaboration with Nazi Germany during WW2.

I guess Jews need to apologise for organizing their defense forces given rhe threat for Jewish existence here. Just like for Iron Dome and prevention of high death toll from the Gaza missiles. Some things never change.

What's your source? According to Yoav Gelber, something of an authority on the subject, the ALA started to infiltrate during 1948. As for 1967, the events I've outlined are a matter of record. All the information I presented is taken from Israeli government files, the stuff they keep for themselves tends to be a bit more honest than the stuff their PR department pumps out. I guess the conspiracy against Israel is so deep-seated that not even the Israeli government's filing cabinets are safe?

Jewish people don't need to apologize for anything, the Israeli government does. Unlike you and your government I don't think it's right to dole out blame and punishment collectively on racial, national, religious or ethnic lines.
 
Fighting breaking out isn't the same as a war. There were skirmishes but the Palestinians didn't have military and weren't capable of fighting a war, never mind starting one. War was declared on the Palestinian people by an Israeli authority with an organised military. The intervention, motives and ineptitude of the various Arab armies aren't really relevant. I was just making an accurate point (again, as recorded in Israeli military documents) that it was the Israelis who trained a military force and deployed them to fulfill their ambitions to conquer territory, not the Palestinians.

Honestly, it's iffy. Haganah's activities are probably the most relevant, given that they were the pre-cursor to the IDF. They were bombing civilian houses well pre-dating November 30th whilst other Jewish paramilitaries were bombing marketplaces, transport hubs and workplaces throughout December. These are organized military groups trained by, and acting with the backing of the Jewish authorities using weapons given to them by the Russians to undertake attacks on citizens. There's never a comparable Palestinian organization during the conflict, the first time there's any kind of concerted military action from their side was in February 1948, when a cobbled together force of 500 men blockaded Jerusalem.

Again, you're blaming the Jews for being the more organized side in what was a civil war in which each side was attempting to seize as much territory as possible in advance of the planned British withdrawal in May. The fact the Arabs didn't have a centrally organized military force of their own is not the fault of the Jews. There were many factors that contributed to the Palestinian failure to organize in 1947 - the rivalries between the Mufti and rival families, the lack of social cohesion among the Palestinians, exhaustion after having been somewhat decimated during the revolt of 36-39, and crucially, the fact that they totally underestimated Jewish determination and believed they would roll back the Jews with few problems - indicated in that they referred to the 'organized military' you speak of throughout the war as 'Zionist gangs'. As Rashid Khalidi writes:

"the Palestinian catastrophe of 1947–49 was predicated on a series of previous failures. The Palestinians entered the fighting which followed the passage of the UN Partition resolution with a deeply divided leadership, exceedingly limited finances, no centrally organized military forces or centralized administrative organs, and no reliable allies. They faced a Jewish society in Palestine which, although small relative to theirs, was politically unified, had centralized para-state institutions, and was exceedingly well led and extremely highly motivated."

This is not to say that the Palestinians were necessarily wrong to use force to attempt to prevent the creation of a Jewish state - but the idea that they were just sitting idly by in late 1947 as the Jews declared war on them out of the blue is nonsense.
 
What's your source?

Benni Morris- 1948: A History of the First Arab-Israeli War

According to Yoav Gelber, something of an authority on the subject, the ALA started to infiltrate during 1948. As for 1967, the events I've outlined are a matter of record. All the information I presented is taken from Israeli government files, the stuff they keep for themselves tends to be a bit more honest than the stuff their PR department pumps out. I guess the conspiracy against Israel is so deep-seated that not even the Israeli government's filing cabinets are safe?

I don't know which sources are available only to the Israeli government and yourself, so I'll refer to what has been made public. The straits of Tiran blockade, the expulsion of UN "peace-keeping" forces from Sinai and the gathering of Arab armies around Israel's borders (before the "occupation" may I add), makes Israel's pre-emptive strike a defensive measure. A range of quotes from Arab leaders in days leading to the war does little to dispel this notion too (http://www.sixdaywar.org/content/threats.asp). You may well be aware that King Hussein of Jordan was advised by Israeli officials not to enter the war, but chose to shell Western Jerusalem and join the party. so much for the expansionist Zionist plot.

Jewish people don't need to apologize for anything, the Israeli government does. Unlike you and your government I don't think it's right to dole out blame and punishment collectively on racial, national, religious or ethnic lines.

We live in a democracy and therefore responsible for our countries policies. Nationally. For example, Tony Blair's government took the UK to the Iraq adventure and then Blair got re-elected. Don't you think it's wrong to clear the British public of any responsibility for the Iraq disaster?
 
Benni Morris- 1948: A History of the First Arab-Israeli War

I don't know which sources are available only to the Israeli government and yourself, so I'll refer to what has been made public. The straits of Tiran blockade, the expulsion of UN "peace-keeping" forces from Sinai and the gathering of Arab armies around Israel's borders (before the "occupation" may I add), makes Israel's pre-emptive strike a defensive measure. A range of quotes from Arab leaders in days leading to the war does little to dispel this notion too (http://www.sixdaywar.org/content/threats.asp). You may well be aware that King Hussein of Jordan was advised by Israeli officials not to enter the war, but chose to shell Western Jerusalem and join the party. so much for the expansionist Zionist plot.

Morris self-identifies as a Zionist and has been called up on the inaccuracy of his narrative by both Jewish and non-Jewish historians. He admits to the ethnic cleansing of 1948 but goes on to claim that it wasn't a bad or unnecessary thing and criticises the Israelis for only kicking 700,000 Palestinians out of their homes instead of all of them. In short he's an extremist, or certainly has become one in recent years.

The sources I speak of aren't only available to me and the Israeli government, they're in the Israeli Army Archives and have been cited in books on the subject, for example Miko Peled's book about his father's role as a soldier in 1948 and a general in 1967. Those sources refute the idea that the Israelis were concerned with self-defence. They were fully aware that there was no concerted domestic Arab military force and that the Jewish militias were comfortably capable of defeating the surrounding Arab armies. The military leadership saw an opportunity to expand Jewish territory at the expense of the Arab population and they took it, evicting hundreds of thousands of innocents as they went. The attitudes of surrounding Arab countries were extremely handy for Israeli propaganda after the fact, but they were never considered a serious threat by those in the know and in any the actions of Jordan or Egypt aren't justification for the wholesale expulsion of Arabs. We come back to the racist dimension of it - namely 'Some Arabs are threatening us so we will punish all Arabs collectively'.


We live in a democracy and therefore responsible for our countries policies. Nationally. For example, Tony Blair's government took the UK to the Iraq adventure and then Blair got re-elected. Don't you think it's wrong to clear the British public of any responsibility for the Iraq disaster?

I don't blame the British public for the Iraq War, most of us were against it. For the record, Blair was re-elected by about 22% of the electorate (35% of those you voted) in 2005. This very black and white idea of nationality seems to be prevalent from the Zionist side, as well as the extremist Arab side. Not all Israeli people support Israel's policy on Palestine, never mind all Jewish people. I don't believe that all Israeli people, or all Jewish people are culpable for the crimes of Israel in the same way that I don't believe that all Palestinian people are culpable for the crimes of extremists. The idea that populations of the same nationality or race are homogeneous is dangerous and racist, and its a huge factor in why this conflict is still ongoing.
 
Morris self-identifies as a Zionist and has been called up on the inaccuracy of his narrative by both Jewish and non-Jewish historians. He admits to the ethnic cleansing of 1948 but goes on to claim that it wasn't a bad or unnecessary thing and criticises the Israelis for only kicking 700,000 Palestinians out of their homes instead of all of them. In short he's an extremist, or certainly has become one in recent years.

Gelber who you cited above would consider himself a Zionist too, while Khalidi who I cited above would consider himself an anti-Zionist. Should we dismiss them all for their political positions?

Morris is the preeminent historian of the 1948 war for good reason - whatever his political inclinations (and I agree he's a bit of a kook in this respect), nobody knows the subject better, and nobody has done more to expose the myths held by both sides regarding what went down. You can of course disagree with the conclusions he draws from the evidence, but unlike many other 'historians' on both sides of this conflict, he does not exclude that evidence in order to distort what happened. In fact, he has been criticized in his approach for being overly reliant on archival evidence to the exclusion of other sources (he is a little too dismissive of the value of oral evidence).

The fact is all historians have their political prejudices. They're not something we can judge their work on, e.g. Eric Hobsbawm was a card-carrying member of the Communist Party for his entire life, yet is widely considered the greatest historian of 19th century Europe to have lived.

jeff_goldblum said:
They were fully aware that there was no concerted domestic Arab military force and that the Jewish militias were comfortably capable of defeating the surrounding Arab armies. The military leadership saw an opportunity to expand Jewish territory at the expense of the Arab population and they took it, evicting hundreds of thousands of innocents as they went.

Do you believe that, in late 1947, Jewish forces should have strictly confined themselves to defending the areas granted them by the UN partition plan? A plan openly rejected by the Arabs? That is not really the way wars work, and it's certainly not the way the Arabs considered the conflict. Here's Fawaz Gerges:

Many Egyptian and other Arab politicians failed to appreciate the strength of the Jewish armed forces – dismissively referred to as “the Zionist gangs” – despite the existence of strong evidence. Cultural misperceptions and racist attitudes toward Jews in general blinded and entrapped Arabs. As one senior Iraqi officer put it: “Arab propaganda underestimated the Zionists’ strength and considered their leadership a criminal gang that ruled through terrorism. Arabs believed that at the first opportunity Jews would rebel against their leaders who were forcing them to fight.” Indeed, Arab politicians listened to the misleading accounts of Azzam, secretary general of the Arab League, and Hajj Amin al-Husayni, the grand mufti of Palestine and chair of the Arab Higher Committee. They were both away from Palestine and ignorant of internal conditions there, and overestimated Arab strength, claiming that all “the Arabs needed was three or four thousand fighters to throw Jews in the sea.”

This helps explain the lack of unified, determined effort to achieve victory in contrast to the Jews. At the same time, it also shows that the Arabs were very much involved in a war in which they believed they could prevent the establishment of Israel. Unfortunately for the Palestinian Arabs, they lost.

On the other hand, it can be reasonably suggested that the entire Zionist project - the attempt to establish a Jewish state in Palestine - was an act of war. That is an argument with more merit to it than suggesting "the Jews declared war in November 1947", since it cuts to the root cause of the conflict from which all else mostly naturally follows. But then the discussion has to go way back beyond 1947.
 
Morris self-identifies as a Zionist and has been called up on the inaccuracy of his narrative by both Jewish and non-Jewish historians. He admits to the ethnic cleansing of 1948 but goes on to claim that it wasn't a bad or unnecessary thing and criticises the Israelis for only kicking 700,000 Palestinians out of their homes instead of all of them. In short he's an extremist, or certainly has become one in recent years.

What an excellent argument you got right there. Morris is a Zionist. He truly believes that the Jewish nation deserves a national home in its historic homeland, and thus he can't be an historian. Excellent logic. Morris "has been called up" only because he deserted the Israeli left. Of course he admits that deportations happened in 1948. So do I. He's an historian, and as such it isn't his business to say what was right or wrong. In that book I quoted he mentions events where Arabs were kicked out of their homes, as well as many others where Arabs left their homes willfully, in the hope (and promise by their leaders) that they would be back shortly when the Jews are annihilated.

An extremist...

The sources I speak of aren't only available to me and the Israeli government, they're in the Israeli Army Archives and have been cited in books on the subject, for example Miko Peled's book about his father's role as a soldier in 1948 and a general in 1967. Those sources refute the idea that the Israelis were concerned with self-defence. They were fully aware that there was no concerted domestic Arab military force and that the Jewish militias were comfortably capable of defeating the surrounding Arab armies. The military leadership saw an opportunity to expand Jewish territory at the expense of the Arab population and they took it, evicting hundreds of thousands of innocents as they went. The attitudes of surrounding Arab countries were extremely handy for Israeli propaganda after the fact, but they were never considered a serious threat by those in the know and in any the actions of Jordan or Egypt aren't justification for the wholesale expulsion of Arabs. We come back to the racist dimension of it - namely 'Some Arabs are threatening us so we will punish all Arabs collectively'.

So Benni Morris, the Zionist, is an "extremist" but Mr. Peled who identify himself with the most extreme left-wing groups in Israel (just like his father)is your credible source. Fair enough. Did they also mention in your sources how the Jews "comfortably defeated" the Arabs in Kfar Darom, Negba and especially Kfar Etzion in 1948? How long could Israel keep its reservists on the borders, which brought the country to a standstill, in light of Arab aggression leading to June 1967. The Arabs got exactly what they deserved back then.

Speaking of 1967, the WB and Gaza were still in Arab hands yet the annihilation campaign was in full force. This conflict is not about borders and Palestinian rights.


I don't blame the British public for the Iraq War, most of us were against it. For the record, Blair was re-elected by about 22% of the electorate (35% of those you voted) in 2005. This very black and white idea of nationality seems to be prevalent from the Zionist side, as well as the extremist Arab side. Not all Israeli people support Israel's policy on Palestine, never mind all Jewish people. I don't believe that all Israeli people, or all Jewish people are culpable for the crimes of Israel in the same way that I don't believe that all Palestinian people are culpable for the crimes of extremists. The idea that populations of the same nationality or race are homogeneous is dangerous and racist, and its a huge factor in why this conflict is still ongoing.

You choose your human rights/hate campaigns very carefully. I'll give you that.
 
Gelber who you cited above would consider himself a Zionist too, while Khalidi who I cited above would consider himself an anti-Zionist. Should we dismiss them all for their political positions?

Morris is the preeminent historian of the 1948 war for good reason - whatever his political inclinations (and I agree he's a bit of a kook in this respect), nobody knows the subject better, and nobody has done more to expose the myths held by both sides regarding what went down. You can of course disagree with the conclusions he draws from the evidence, but unlike many other 'historians' on both sides of this conflict, he does not exclude that evidence in order to distort what happened. In fact, he has been criticized in his approach for being overly reliant on archival evidence to the exclusion of other sources (he is a little too dismissive of the value of oral evidence).

The fact is all historians have their political prejudices. They're not something we can judge their work on, e.g. Eric Hobsbawm was a card-carrying member of the Communist Party for his entire life, yet is widely considered the greatest historian of 19th century Europe to have lived.


Do you believe that, in late 1947, Jewish forces should have strictly confined themselves to defending the areas granted them by the UN partition plan? A plan openly rejected by the Arabs? That is not really the way wars work, and it's certainly not the way the Arabs considered the conflict. Here's Fawaz Gerges:

Many Egyptian and other Arab politicians failed to appreciate the strength of the Jewish armed forces – dismissively referred to as “the Zionist gangs” – despite the existence of strong evidence. Cultural misperceptions and racist attitudes toward Jews in general blinded and entrapped Arabs. As one senior Iraqi officer put it: “Arab propaganda underestimated the Zionists’ strength and considered their leadership a criminal gang that ruled through terrorism. Arabs believed that at the first opportunity Jews would rebel against their leaders who were forcing them to fight.” Indeed, Arab politicians listened to the misleading accounts of Azzam, secretary general of the Arab League, and Hajj Amin al-Husayni, the grand mufti of Palestine and chair of the Arab Higher Committee. They were both away from Palestine and ignorant of internal conditions there, and overestimated Arab strength, claiming that all “the Arabs needed was three or four thousand fighters to throw Jews in the sea.”

This helps explain the lack of unified, determined effort to achieve victory in contrast to the Jews. At the same time, it also shows that the Arabs were very much involved in a war in which they believed they could prevent the establishment of Israel. Unfortunately for the Palestinian Arabs, they lost.

On the other hand, it can be reasonably suggested that the entire Zionist project - the attempt to establish a Jewish state in Palestine - was an act of war. That is an argument with more merit to it than suggesting "the Jews declared war in November 1947", since it cuts to the root cause of the conflict from which all else mostly naturally follows. But then the discussion has to go way back beyond 1947.

On the first bolded point - only when those positions clearly bias their conclusions. I chose to cite Gelber precisely because he is both an expert in the IDF and a Zionist who has worked with the government. My point being that holylandred is making claims that even Zionists with close links to the Israeli government don't come out with.

On the second point, I believe they should have defended their people and nothing more. They lost the moral high ground that they still stake a claim to as soon as they started the oppurtunistic land-grabbing. The UN Partition Plan was ridiculously anti-Arab anyway in terms of the proportion of the land it was giving to the Jewish minority. The Jews could have successfully held that territory and it still would have been an unfair settlement for Arabs - the threat from Egypt, Syria, Jordan etc. didn't give Israel the moral right to launch an attack on the Palestinians. The whole thing basically boils down to typifying all Arabs as a homogeneous 'other' - 'these Arabs hate us so attacking these other Arabs is justified'. At best that's a cynical ploy by the Jewish authorities to foster unity and justify expansionism, at worst it's racism plain and simple.

I agree with your last paragraph - although I do stand by the point that the Israelis began the conflict in earnest. Ultimately the part where the pro-Israel argument entirely collapses is its basis in Zionism - the belief that any ethnic or religious group has the right to rule over another is an illegitimate and dangerous one on which to build a state.

@holyland red - read my reply to 2cents about Morris. I don't think Zionists can't be historians, but you have to question all bias. I cited a Zionist historian myself to refute your claims. The situation with Mr. Peled is entirely different. His father wasn't a leftist with an agenda, he was an Zionist Israeli general who was a warmonger in 1948. He had an almost unique insight into the issues we're discussing and, despite having an overwhelmingly Zionist background, that insight led him to become critical of Israel. He's the exact opposite of the likes of Morris who was raised believing certain things and has never questioned them.

And not to bring it back to this, but yes, claiming that all Jewish people, regardless of where they actually came from, have the right to take other peoples' land because some Jewish people lived there thousands of years ago is definitely an extremist position.

I don't understand your point on Iraq. I'm not choosing my campaigns, I just don't see why I'm to blame for a war I didn't vote for, didn't benefit from and which I've always been highly critical of. Similarly, I don't think my Jewish coursemate is culpable for Israel's attacks on Palestinian civilians, or that any of the Palestinian refugees I play football with on a Sunday are to blame for attacks on Israeli citizens. That kind of nuance is something that the Israeli government seems incapable of understanding.
 
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@holyland red - read my reply to 2cents about Morris. I don't think Zionists can't be historians, but you have to question all bias. I cited a Zionist historian myself to refute your claims. The situation with Mr. Peled is entirely different. His father wasn't a leftist with an agenda, he was an Zionist Israeli general who was a warmonger in 1948. He had an almost unique insight into the issues we're discussing and, despite having an overwhelmingly Zionist background, that insight led him to become critical of Israel. He's the exact opposite of the likes of Morris who was raised believing certain things and has never questioned them.

And not to bring it back to this, but yes, claiming that all Jewish people, regardless of where they actually came from, have the right to take other peoples' land because some Jewish people lived there thousands of years ago is definitely an extremist position.

I don't understand your point on Iraq. I'm not choosing my campaigns, I just don't see why I'm to blame for a war I didn't vote for, didn't benefit from and which I've always been highly critical of. Similarly, I don't think my Jewish coursemate is culpable for Israel's attacks on Palestinian civilians, or that any of the Palestinian refugees I play football with on a Sunday are to blame for attacks on Israeli citizens. That kind of nuance is something that the Israeli government seems incapable of understanding.

Morris used to fit the profile you like so much in Peled. A Zionist with leftist views. However, he lost all credibility among your camp as soon as he was brave enough to admit he was wrong. He did so because, unlike the day-dreaming peace-brigade, when buses and restaurants full of civilians started blowing up here it became clear that the Palestinian leadership was not interested in peace. Plain and simple.

Speaking of bias, the second paragraph highlights yours. Dismissing the Jewish nation's rights in the Land of Israel while inventing a non-existing other "indigenous" nation to which it "belongs" is as biased as one could get.

Democracy=accountability. This holds for Israel, Gaza and the UK. You choose to bury your head in the sand so you can simplify conflicts as exchanges between "regimes" and "military establishments".

Palestinian refugees...
 
jeff_goldblum said:
On the first bolded point - only when those positions clearly bias their conclusions.

You believe Morris's conclusions to be biased only because you happen to disagree with them. Whereas he draws them entirely from the evidence presented, while at the same time leaving nothing out which might draw people towards other conclusions. A historian can't do any more than that.

On the second point, I believe they should have defended their people and nothing more.

That's fine - you believe they shouldn't have tried to establish a Jewish state, which was their entire raison d'etre for being in Palestine in the first place, something that could only be achieved by force given the Arabs' (understandable) resistance to it, and something which the Jews believe they had been handed a legal mandate to achieve. Which makes the entire debate over who initiated hostilities in late 1947 extraneous to the larger question of the roots of the conflict (interesting as the matter might be in itself), on which see below.

Other way round. The attempt to destroy a Jewish state in palestine was an act of war.

From the Palestinian Arab perspective, the Zionists were foreigners attempting to establish an alien political body on their land and transform them into a minority. The Arabs did not violently reject Jewish migration to Palestine until the extent of Zionist aims became clear to them. Similarly, Syrian Arabs did not violently oppose the arrival of Armenian refugees after 1915, since the Armenian arrivals had no political project which they were attempting to impose on the locals.

In resisting the establishment of the Jewish state, the Arabs were just doing what all people have done throughout history. Obviously there were mitigating circumstances which explain the Zionist project (I would argue that in attempting to create a Jewish state, the Zionists were just doing what all European peoples of that time had already done or were attempting to do in one form or another), but as far as the Arabs are concerned, that is the root of the conflict. All else follows logically enough from that perspective.
 
Speaking of bias, the second paragraph highlights yours. Dismissing the Jewish nation's rights in the Land of Israel while inventing a non-existing other "indigenous" nation to which it "belongs" is as biased as one could get.

Democracy=accountability. This holds for Israel, Gaza and the UK. You choose to bury your head in the sand so you can simplify conflicts as exchanges between "regimes" and "military establishments".

Palestinian refugees...

Just so we're clear what this argument is based on, why do you believe the 'Jewish nation' has the right to 'The Land of Israel'?
 
Just so we're clear what this argument is based on, why do you believe the 'Jewish nation' has the right to 'The Land of Israel'?

I guess this covers it?

On the 29th November, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish State in Eretz-Israel; the General Assembly required the inhabitants of Eretz-Israel to take such steps as were necessary on their part for the implementation of that resolution. This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their State is irrevocable.

And whilst we're on this subject, how about India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, pretty much all of Africa, the middle East etc etc, in fact what Fearless said.
 
Just so we're clear on what this argument is based on, please define what gives any peoples any rights to to any other lands.

Yeah, something along these lines...

You're the ones to claim a Jewish right to the land, I just want to know how you justify that. I'm not going to go into a treatise about property ownership and land rights to satisfy your attempt to derail the debate.

As a basic rule I'd say that someone whose family or community has been settled in a place for a reasonable length of time has the right to stay there and to call that land their home. They would certainly have more of a right to do so than someone who's never been there before and whose only connection to the land is that they follow the same religion or share some genetic material with some people who used to live there 2000 years ago.


I guess this covers it?

That's not a justification, that's a ruling from an international organisation. Incidentally the same one that now denounces Israel for war-crimes and human rights abuses. Zionism far pre-dates that ruling and profoundly influenced it. What I'm asking for is a justification for the belief that Jewish people have the right to what is now Israel - Zionists certainly don't believe that authority stems back to 1947.
 
Just so we're clear on what this argument is based on, please define what gives any peoples any rights to to any other lands.

Yeah, something along these lines...

I guess this covers it?

And whilst we're on this subject, how about India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, pretty much all of Africa, the middle East etc etc, in fact what Fearless said.

Israel's other potential claim to legitimacy, international recognition, is just as dubious. The two pacts which sealed Palestine's future were both concluded by Britain. First we signed the Sykes-Picot agreement with France, pledging to divvy up Ottoman spoils in the Levant. A year later, in 1917, the Balfour Declaration promised a national home for the Jewish people. Under international law the declaration was null and void since Palestine did not belong to Britain - under the pact of the League of Nations it belonged to Turkey.

By the time the UN accepted a resolution on the partition of Palestine in 1947, Jews constituted 32% of the population and owned 5.6% of the land. By 1949, largely as a result of paramilitary organisations such as the Haganah, Irgun and Stern gang, Israel controlled 80% of Palestine and 770,000 non-Jews had been expelled from their country.

Far from being a force for liberation and safety after decades of suffering, the idea that Israel is some kind of religious birthright has only imprisoned Jews in a never-ending cycle of conflict. The "promise" breeds an arrogance which institutionalises the inferiority of other peoples and generates atrocities against them with alarming regularity. It allows soldiers to defy their consciences and blast unarmed schoolchildren. It gives rise to legislation seeking to prevent the acquisition of territory by non-Jews.

It's a farce, basically. A total farce.

This is without going into the religious aspect.
 
As a basic rule I'd say that someone whose family or community has been settled in a place for a reasonable length of time has the right to stay there and to call that land their home. They would certainly have more of a right to do so than someone who's never been there before and whose only connection to the land is that they follow the same religion or share some genetic material with some people who used to live there 2000 years ago.

Whose the 'someone whose never been there before' - the thousands of Arabs who came in from surrounding countries to prosper from of Jewish industry or the refugeed Jews who's come to join there brethren who lived there (without be booted out)) since living memory?
 
By the religious aspect you mean that the holy books (including yours) ratify Israel as the promised land for the Jews.

Nope.

I'm not going to turn this debate into a religious one. By comment earlier was on the fact that there are two claims to the land that you/Zionists use. A political one and a religious one. Both of which are wrong.

Also - you didn't comment on the other parts I quoted earlier...?

There are interesting parallels here with the Nani thread.
The difference is your posts in the Nani thread aren't absolute nonsense.
 
You're the ones to claim a Jewish right to the land, I just want to know how you justify that. I'm not going to go into a treatise about property ownership and land rights to satisfy your attempt to derail the debate.

As a basic rule I'd say that someone whose family or community has been settled in a place for a reasonable length of time has the right to stay there and to call that land their home. They would certainly have more of a right to do so than someone who's never been there before and whose only connection to the land is that they follow the same religion or share some genetic material with some people who used to live there 2000 years ago.

This is a very basic rule you have there. "Reasonable length of time" only goes to serve your side of the debate. Continuous Jewish presence in what is now Israel predates all current nation states. That most of us were driven out throughout history doesn't change the fact that this is our homeland. If not, what is then? Do the Jews deserve their nation state? According to most estimates, Jews have been the largest ethnic group in Jerusalem for at least 150 years. Is that a reasonable length of time? Would that make the Jews entitled to a nation state in Jerusalem? What about other, sparsely populated land which was legally purchased from its Arab owners?

Nation states exist. Zionism is about the right of the Jewish nation to its own state. Anti-Zionism is denying that right, and therefore denies the Jews a basic right which other ethnic groups are granted. "Anti-Zionism" predates Zionism.

BTW, many Arabs have stayed here since 1948 and now proudly call this place their home. Most "Palestinian refugees" have never been here before.
 
Whose the 'someone whose never been there before' - the thousands of Arabs who came in from surrounding countries to prosper from of Jewish industry or the refugeed Jews who's come to join there brethren who lived there since living memory?

Complete ahistorical nonsense. By the time the Arabs took political control of the area it was under the rule of the Byzantine Empire and largely Christian. Jewish people had been in the minority since at least the 5th Century and hadn't constituted a majority since the time of Christ. In the 1530s there were 5,000 Jews in modern Israel and by 1850 there were around 15,000 (about 4% of the population.) I'm not sure whether this idea of Arabs coming in to benefit from Jewish industry is coming from - the technological and industrial revolution in Egypt and the Middle East during the Medieval Period came under Arab rule when both Christians and Muslims far outnumbered the Jewish population.

There are currently just over 6.1 million Jews in Israel, of whom 5.8 million are recent immigrants or the descendants of recent immigrants. These are people whose ancestors hadn't lived in the area for millenia, displacing an majority Arab population whose descendants had been living in the area continuously for hundreds of years by the time 1947 came round.

@holyland red - Modern-day Israel was someones elses' homeland before the Hebrews conquered it and forced them out. After they'd been settled there a generation of so Israel was the only homeland the Jews had known, just as it had been for those before them. Similarly, Palestine had been home to Arab families, communities and institutions for centuries by 1947. Their ancestors arrived in the 6th or 7th century when the area was a Christian Byzantine province in which Jews a tiny minority. Just like the Hebrews, they won it by right of conquest.

The problem with your argument is that it relies on this fundamentalist religious idea of the Jewish people being exceptional - somehow more important than anyone who came before or after. Israel wasn't It wasn't the Jewish homeland before the Hebrews conquered it 3000 years ago, it wasn't the Jewish homeland in the 5th century, and it certainly wasn't a Jewish homeland in 1947, aside from for those who had remained there. The millions of foreign-born Jews who have come over since don't deserve to live there more than Arabs who have lived their for generations simply because they're Jewish.
 
The British Governor of the Sinai from 1922–36 observed: “This illegal immigration was not only going on from the Sinai, but also from Transjordan and Syria, and it is very difficult to make a case out for the misery of the Arabs if at the same time their compatriots from adjoining states could not be kept from going in to share that misery.”

Ancestors, Byzantines, 5th century among other myths.
 
OK let’s break it down:

Rejecting arguments for Israel:

The Biblical claim – nobody except true Jewish and perhaps some Christian believers can accept this claim.

The Legal claim - the legitimacy of Balfour rests on the strength and interests of British imperialism at the time, not on any universally established rights. The UN decision of 1947 has more merit, but by then reflected facts on the ground rather than the original Zionist claim.

The Ancient Homeland – claim rests on a 3,000 year-old connection with the land, and most importantly on the existence of a sovereign Jewish entity in Palestine which came to an end around 2,000 years ago. However, there is zero precedent in any case in history of a claim based on such an ancient history being accepted. Imagine the reaction today if the Romanis of Europe decided to claim a state in Gujarat based on the fact they left there during the Middle Ages? If the land had been empty, then there would have been no problem. But while Zionist claims based on a sovereignty that last existed 2,000 years ago explains their focus on Palestine in particular as the location for their state, they cannot logically override the claims of the majority of the people inhabiting the land more recently.

Jewish Suffering – the strongest moral case for a Jewish state is the plight of the Jews throughout their history, and the belief that the best remedy for the so-called ‘Jewish problem’ is the Jewish people taking control of their own destiny through the creation of a Jewish state to sit as equals alongside the rest of the world’s modern nation-states. However, there is no logical way to argue that the relief of Jewish suffering in this way need be achieved at the expense of the Palestinians, since any suitable land available should suffice. And even if no empty land could be found, then the people to pay the price for the creation of such a state should lie somewhere between the Rhine and Volga, not in Palestine.

Tiny Israel vs. Expansive Arab Lands – it has been argued that since the Arabs inhabit vast lands from the Atlantic to the Gulf, they should get over it and accept Jewish sovereignty on a tiny piece of that land. This is an argument with some merit – however, there are obvious ways to go about requesting such land, and it is clear that, petitions to Sultan Abdulhamid and the Faysal-Weizmann negotiations notwithstanding, the Zionists were determined to establish their state no matter what the native Arabs agreed to.

There is no Palestinian people – Golda Meir’s famous line has the merit of being based on an element of truth in that the Arabs of Palestine were late in adopting a nationalist ideology through which to express their claim to the land. However, the fact that the Zionists found the Arabs in such a politically immature existence when they arrived should not have any moral bearing on the fact that they imposed their state on the locals without their consent, Palestinian nation or no.

Population Exchange – the argument goes that since a similar number of Jews were forced from Arab and Muslim lands following 1948, the Palestinians should accept their plight in terms of a population exchange. However, there is no reason Palestinian Arabs should be forced to pay for the actions of the other Arab states in their treatment of their Jewish population.

In rejecting Zionist claims based on the above propositions, the Palestinians were not doing anything abnormal according to what we know about how humans generally respond to the attempt of foreigners to impose themselves on a native population coercively (through hard or soft power). The fact that a host of factors have since led the Palestinians to fall to the sickness of antisemitism, conspiracy mongering, and indiscriminate terrorism, has no bearing on the legitimacy of their original and understandable rejection of Zionism.

A precedential case for Israel

Despite the above, a case can be made for the legitimacy of Israel based on precedent – Zionism as a legitimate national movement born from the same world and playing by the same rules as the nationalism of the rest of Europe (and increasingly the world), and the many cases where modern states have been born out of similar or worse circumstances than Israel, without receiving half the scrutiny Israel gets for being born in ‘original sin’.

The context – the Zionists were men and women who grew up in a world in a total flux, with all the traditional forms of political order falling apart around them, borders being redrawn, populations on the move, and with every ethnic group from the Alps to the Caucasus attempting by whatever means to achieve some measure of political autonomy. In this predicament, European Jews had a few choices. They could stay and either assimilate (mostly possible in Western Europe) or keep their heads down in their ghettos and try to weather the storm (Central and Eastern Europe, with tragic consequences). They could leave, to America or elsewhere in the West (which most did). Or they could try to negotiate the mess on equal terms with the other players by adopting nationalism - it would have been unnatural for Jews not to have been drawn to nationalism in such a situation. Therefore, there is nothing especially unique about Zionism that distinguishes it apart from the other forms of nationalism adopted by various European groups at the same time, apart from the fact that there was no obvious European territory up for grabs for these Jews to focus their attention on.

Right of conquest - If the idea that modern states cannot exist on the basis of conquest and settlement was applied fairly, dozens of states in the world would have to be disbanded. Israelis understandably get irked when being lectured by Americans, Australians and the likes on their treatment of the native Palestinians. Closer to home, the origins of the modern state of Turkey go back to the medieval conquest of Anatolia by the Seljuk Turks and subsequent Turkish migration from Central Asia, and the state was achieved by the ethnic cleansing and/or murder of a couple of million Armenian, Greek and Assyrian Christians (as with the Zionist project, there were mitigating circumstances, though probably less vital). The problem here for the Zionists is not that they dispossessed the Palestinians, but that they didn’t do it earlier, at a time when they would have got away with it without a fuss, and that they didn’t do it thoroughly enough, so as to leave no Palestinians around to try and get even with them. With this in mind, attempts to argue for the illegitimacy of Israel based on the supposed uniqueness of its original sin cannot be accepted given the number of other states born of similar or worse crimes, unless the argument rests on an entirely arbitrarily chosen place in time only after which the creation of such states became unacceptable.

National self-determination – unfortunately for the Palestinians, the fact is that, for the reasons outlined above, a community with its own distinct characteristics which fulfills all the elements of what we commonly accept to constitute a 'nation' now exists in Palestine. Attempts by the Palestinians to dismiss the Jews as simply a religious group, as the original PLO charter does, or as some type of modern-day Crusaders, something very common in Palestinian Arab discourse, are no less contemptuous than Golda Meir’s denial of the existence of the Palestinians. And in an international system based on the principle of national self-determination, in which new states routinely come into existence based on ethnic separatism, the Jews of Israel are no less deserving to this right than any other nation.
 
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@2cents Legal rights, by Dr. Jacques P. Gauthier (International Human Rights Lawyer, ME Specialist):

Please please watch this from 19.30 onward.



Thanks. I don't see anything there contradicting what I wrote above, but there are a couple of issues I have with his argument. Firstly, rather than Balfour (which as I've written above was based on British imperial interests), he focuses on San Remo as the source of the legitimacy of the Jewish state, noting that the San Remo agreement was based on the decisions of the five primary victors of WW1 (USA, UK, France, Italy and Japan), and noting that the other decisions these powers reached were also legally binding (such as the Treaty of Versailles, and we all know what a great decision that was!). So basically, the legitimacy is derived from the interests of five imperial powers rather than one. There is no moral reason why the Arabs of Palestine should have accepted this, since they were neither consulted on or represented at the talks. And in any case, with British troops on the ground in the region at the time, it was never in doubt which of these powers' interests would be represented by the agreement.

Secondly, he barely mentions the Palestinian Arabs at all, and subtly conflates the claims of one branch of Arabs (the Hashimites of the Hijaz), with those of all the Arab inhabitants of the Middle East, deducing from this that 'the Arabs' should actually be delighted with what they got from the agreement. In fact the Hashimites represented nobody but themselves - they entered the war through an opportunistic rebellion against their Ottoman masters, spent the war negotiating in bad faith with the British (who returned the favor) and the Ottomans (to whom they made continuous overtures behind British backs), and ended up completely reliant on British support to secure the monarchies of Iraq and Transjordan. The Arabs of Palestine mostly remained loyal to the Ottomans during the war. With the end of that empire, they found themselves completely unprepared to face the new world - they were not politically sophisticated enough to make claims to their own land in terms of the new language of international relations imposed on everybody else by the West. This is not a moral failing on their part, but rather a reflection of the backward nature of politics in the late Ottoman Empire.

Note I'm not arguing that Israel's legitimacy does not have a basis in international law. What I'm saying is that international law as it has been applied in Palestine does not reflect any universally accepted values, but rather enshrines the interests of a couple of powerful players (the British and Zionists) at a particular moment in time at the expense of less powerful players (the Palestinian Arabs) who, if the rights were based on universally accepted values, would have been the ones to decide their own destiny at that moment.
 
I always enjoy reading your posts and being educated @2cents. Do you study history or something?
 
Top post, @2cents. Balanced and fair.

Agreed, really good post that sums up both positions.

The one thing I'd say about the right of conquest argument - my point was that the Arabs came into possession of land in the Levant by the same process as the Hebrews did 1500 years earlier and so it seems inconsistent to claim that the descendants of the Hebrews have any great claim. If either of those events happened in the modern day they'd certainly be criticised. But however illegitimate that initial conquest was, past a certain cut-off you can't really continue to claim the illegitimacy of settlement on that land in favour of another claim. In the context of Palestine, whilst the Arab conquest of the Christian Byzantines would certainly be denounced by today's standards and likely declared illegal, you can't very well say that the current occupants claim to the land they lived in in relative peace for centuries (regardless of the changes in political control) is invalid. None of them had anything to do with the Arab conquest 1500 years ago so it could never be justifiable to deplace them.

A further point would be that, by the Zionist 'homeland' logic, the descendants of the Canannites/Assyrians in the area would have a greater claim than do the Jews and the only reason they don't is because the Hebrews were far more effective in their destruction of Canaanite/Assyrian/etc. culture and civilization in Old Testament Israel than were the Greeks/Romans/Arabs/Ottomans in the last 22 centuries in destroying Jewish culture.

The big thing here is that the Zionist position, and the policy of the Israeli government, isn't constructed on rational argument or debate, it's built on religious fundamentalism and a dangerous brand of exclusionary racism. I'm not opposed to those Israelis living in Israel to stay there, but I am certainly opposed to a government that commits war crimes and human rights abuses on racial lines and encourages illegal settlement and justifies it with ancient religious dogma. Similarly, any civilized society should have a problem with a state which by its very nature entails the dominance of one ethno-religious group other any others.
 
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Note I'm not arguing that Israel's legitimacy does not have a basis in international law. What I'm saying is that international law as it has been applied in Palestine does not reflect any universally accepted values, but rather enshrines the interests of a couple of powerful players (the British and Zionists) at a particular moment in time at the expense of less powerful players (the Palestinian Arabs) who, if the rights were based on universally accepted values, would have been the ones to decide their own destiny at that moment.

Universally accepted values? Thats a bit of a get out IMO, seeing as there undefinable and therefore not really applicable - especially in retrospect.
Not that I don't appreciate what your trying to say, but bottom line is you can only deal with whose in front of you.
 
The big thing here is that the Zionist position, and the policy of the Israeli government, isn't constructed on rational argument or debate, it's built on religious fundamentalism and a dangerous brand of exclusionary racism. I'm not opposed to those Israelis living in Israel to stay there, but I am certainly opposed to a government that commits war crimes and human rights abuses on racial lines and encourages illegal settlement and justifies it with ancient religious dogma. Similarly, any civilized society should have a problem with a state which by its very nature entails the dominance of one ethno-religious group other any others.


It seems to me that complaining about this is a bit like complaining that a home for battered women is sexist because it doesn't admit men. The place exists because Europeans (and later Arabs) couldn't stop themselves massacring their Jewish populations. If it's therefore racist in conception, so be it - better to live in a racist state than not to live at all.

Plech 2007
 
I always enjoy reading your posts and being educated @2cents. Do you study history or something?

Thanks, yes indeed I do.

In the context of Palestine, whilst the Arab conquest of the Christian Byzantines would certainly be denounced by today's standards and likely declared illegal, you can't very well say that the current occupants claim to the land they lived in in relative peace for centuries (regardless of the changes in political control) is invalid. None of them had anything to do with the Arab conquest 1500 years ago so it could never be justifiable to deplace them.

Agreed. Furthermore, the occupants themselves became Arabized, which meant that the Arab conquests were no longer looked upon as a conquest by foreigners, but instead became THE crucial historical episode which shaped their identity.

jeff_goldblum said:
any civilized society should have a problem with a state which by its very nature entails the dominance of one ethno-religious group other any others.

Dozens of such states exist (count the amount of states in the region which define themselves as 'Arab'). Ethnic nationalism (in contrast to civic nationalism) is by its very nature discriminatory. Unfortunately this was the type of nationalism which appealed in the conditions of late 19th/early 20th century Central/Eastern Europe and the Middle East where multi-ethnic empires were declining. In its origins then, Zionism is no different in this respect than Serbian, Albanian, Hungarian, Turkish, Arab nationalism etc., although all obviously emphasize different elements in defining themselves apart from others (e.g. religious heritage in the case of Zionism, language in the case of Arab nationalism, and a weird mixture of both with Turkish nationalism). The extremes which Zionism has expressed over the years are more a result of the peculiarities of the conflict as it has evolved since the late 19th century. In a condition of peace, it could well evolve to become more inclusive.

Universally accepted values? Thats a bit of a get out IMO, seeing as there undefinable and therefore not really applicable - especially in retrospect.
Not that I don't appreciate what your trying to say, but bottom line is you can only deal with whose in front of you.

Yeah I knew as soon as I wrote it that it's not really satisfactory. But I would say that there are varying degrees of what are regarded as acceptable claims to land and certainly today, very few would accept that the interests of foreigners (in this case British imperialists and Zionists) should take priority over the wishes of the current inhabitants of the land.
 
It seems to me that complaining about this is a bit like complaining that a home for battered women is sexist because it doesn't admit men. The place exists because Europeans (and later Arabs) couldn't stop themselves massacring their Jewish populations. If it's therefore racist in conception, so be it - better to live in a racist state than not to live at all.

Plech 2007

I understand the analogy, but it doesn't really fit. It wasn't generally the case that the Jewish people were in threat of annihilation after World War II had ended. Many millions of Jews were living happily in the UK and the USA even before the war and still are today - Jewish people were both politically and economically vital to Britain's prosperity during the 19th century and the USA's rise to being a world power in the early 20th Century and Jewish communities are a intrinsic part of the cultural make-up of both these countries. That's not to say that Hitler's destruction was the end of antisemitism, it clearly wasn't, especially in central and Eastern Europe, but the establishment of a Jewish state was by no means the only way to protect Jewish communities from being massacred wholesale. There was obvious challenges in relocation and settlement of populations who simply didn't feel safe living amongst people who had tried to destroy them, but other solutions were possible. It just so happened that the one that was seen as least objectionable by the western powers (due to a combination of racist disregard for the Arabs under British colonial rule and the strategic value of having a friendly state in the Levant as colonialism was winding down), and most satisfactory by the Zionists was to build a Jewish state in Palestine.

But ultimately, it was the settled population of Arabs in Palestine, who had themselves suffered greatly at the hands of Europeans, who were told that they had to sacrifice their lands to atone for crimes they hadn't committed. Taking yourself out of the tribalism of it all, does that really seem fair? If the boot was on the other foot, would you freely give up the lands your family had lived on for centuries because some westerners had decided that a few million people should be able to move there from Europe?
 
Dozens of such states exist (count the amount of states in the region which define themselves as 'Arab'). Ethnic nationalism (in contrast to civic nationalism) is by its very nature discriminatory. Unfortunately this was the type of nationalism which appealed in the conditions of late 19th/early 20th century Central/Eastern Europe and the Middle East where multi-ethnic empires were declining. In its origins then, Zionism is no different in this respect than Serbian, Albanian, Hungarian, Turkish, Arab nationalism etc., although all obviously emphasize different elements in defining themselves apart from others (e.g. religious heritage in the case of Zionism, language in the case of Arab nationalism, and a weird mixture of both with Turkish nationalism). The extremes which Zionism has expressed over the years are more a result of the peculiarities of the conflict as it has evolved since the late 19th century. In a condition of peace, it could well evolve to become more inclusive.

Whilst I agree that lots of states based on similar identity politics exist, I'd argue that in the other examples you mention these had a degree of historical precedent which Zionism lacks. Serbian and Albanian nationalism especially come in the context of majority ethnic populations historically rooted in certain areas who had little or no experience of self-determination in their recent history, either due to being part of foreign empires (Austro-Hungary/Ottoman) or the Soviet Bloc. In that context the formation of a state was tantamount to emancipation. Zionism wasn't a movement for Jewish self-determination in their own lands, it was the belief that the Jewish people had a divine right to rule a land which, outside of scripture, the vast majority of Jews had no tangible connection to, and that their status as God's chosen invalidated any Earthly claims lesser peoples might have to that same land. It was effectively the belief that the Jewish people had the right to take what wasn't theirs based solely on the fact that they were Jewish and the Arabs weren't.