Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

holyland red said:
Rant over?

Palestinians deny our right for self-determination. Until they change their mind they are not going to get anything more than they already have.

You're also wrong in that last paragraph in that the situation here is unprecedented. The supposedly "oppressed" here is not content with anything less than its rival vanishing from the face of the earth. Pretty tough to compromise with that, don't you think?
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Likewise, you'll find Israeli right wingers want Palestinians wiped off the earth. If you have any semblance of humanity and think they are not "oppressed" Ask yourself a question. How would you feel if you found your children in similar conditions? Carry on with these attitudes and it's not long off when Israel's bubble will burst.
holyland red said:
Denying the Jewish people's right for self-determination, i.e. a Jewish Israel is and has always been the very core issue of the Arab-Jewish conflict. Portraying the Arabs as the victims, "oppressed" or whatever "human rights" activists like to call them in a conflict they are sworn to continue until they rival disappear is a choice you are entitled to.

I'll not call you a Whelan if you return a favour and quit using "international law", human rights and morals as automatic choice buzzwords. It winds me up.
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Terrorists/terrorism seems to be an automatic choice buzzword used by your government over the last few years.
 
holyland red said:
Denying the Jewish people's right for self-determination, i.e. a Jewish Israel is and has always been the very core issue of the Arab-Jewish conflict. Portraying the Arabs as the victims, "oppressed" or whatever "human rights" activists like to call them in a conflict they are sworn to continue until they rival disappear is a choice you are entitled to.

I'll not call you a Whelan if you return a favour and quit using "international law", human rights and morals as automatic choice buzzwords. It winds me up.
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When was the last time I used any of those words in this thread?

Edit: I just did a search for each one and the only results I got were posts where I was quoting you and it was in the quote :lol:
 
Call me Whelan.

There is definitely a lack of human values, morals, and your country do constantly break international law.
 
Sultan said:
Likewise, you'll find Israeli right wingers want Palestinians wiped off the earth. If you have any semblance of humanity and think they are not "oppressed" Ask yourself a question. How would you feel if you found your children in similar conditions? Carry on with these attitudes and it's not long off when Israel's bubble will burst.

Terrorists/terrorism seems to be an automatic choice buzzword used by your government over the last few years.
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Both Arabs and Jews would have liked the other to just disappear. Difference is that the vast majority of Israelis favour a two-state solution. No Palestinian political faction is content with a Jewish Israel.

As long as they fight for the eradication of our state we are not in a position to express empathy, I'm afraid. You have already picked sides here too, and I'm hardly shocked at your prophecy/wishful thinking.
 
holyland red said:
Rant over?

Palestinians deny our right for self-determination. Until they change their mind they are not going to get anything more than they already have.

You're also wrong in that last paragraph in that the situation here is unprecedented. The supposedly "oppressed" here is not content with anything less than its rival vanishing from the face of the earth. Pretty tough to compromise with that, don't you think?
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clutching straws. Both sides deny the right of the other to exist peacfully. Both sides are deeply racistic. No matter what Palestinians are going to do, they wont get anything. So yes, its impossible to compromise with Israel as long as the USA+EU are supporting and enabling these politics. Its just not in the national interest of Israel that Palestina exist and Israel doesnt have to make any compromise, because they have the high-tec army.
I know that you try to rationalize your racism. Racists always do that. They have to or it would lead to serious internal conflict. Thats why you cant admid mistakes on your side. Its interesting to see what ideology and indoctrination can do to people.
 
PedroMendez said:
clutching straws. Both sides deny the right of the other to exist peacfully. Both sides are deeply racistic. No matter what Palestinians are going to do, they wont get anything. So yes, its impossible to compromise with Israel as long as the USA+EU are supporting and enabling these politics. Its just not in the national interest of Israel that Palestina exist and Israel doesnt have to make any compromise, because they have the high-tec army.
I know that you try to rationalize your racism. Racists always do that. They have to or it would lead to serious internal conflict. Thats why you cant admid mistakes on your side. Its interesting to see what ideology and indoctrination can do to people.
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30,000 Israelis chanted the name of an Israeli Muslim who took Bosnia apart in a Euro qualifier on Sunday. An Israeli Arab Druze stormed into the Jerusalem synagogue on Tuesday, and gave away his own life to stop the massacre. Repeating your mantra occasionally does not change the fact you don't have a clue.

Israel has expressed its willingness to compromise, from 1947 to Olmert's plan. Facht.
 
holyland red said:
Both Arabs and Jews would have liked the other to just disappear. Difference is that the vast majority of Israelis favour a two-state solution. No Palestinian political faction is content with a Jewish Israel.

As long as they fight for the eradication of our state we are not in a position to express empathy, I'm afraid. You have already picked sides here too, and I'm hardly shocked at your prophecy/wishful thinking.
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It's hardly difficult to make predictions. No country or power has lasted forever with just military power. Injustice is always short lived.

“If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him. … We need not wait to see what others do.”

Ghandi
 
holyland red said:
30,000 Israelis chanted the name of an Israeli Muslim who took Bosnia apart in a Euro qualifier on Sunday. An Israeli Arab Druze stormed into the Jerusalem synagogue on Tuesday, and gave away his own life to stop the massacre. Repeating your mantra occasionally does not change the fact you don't have a clue.

Israel has expressed its willingness to compromise, from 1947 to Olmert's plan. Facht.
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I would if an Israeli scored for United. Your point?
 
Sultan said:
I would if an Israeli scored for United. Your point?
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It's our national team, Sultan. Our national team. You'll never understand.

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Sultan said:
It's hardly difficult to make predictions. No country or power has lasted forever with just military power. Injustice is always short lived.

“If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him. … We need not wait to see what others do.”

Ghandi
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I agree with the injustice part. The unjustified anti-Israeli bias and double-standards will be gone soon. Soon enough the free world will realize that we're fighting the same corner.
 
holyland red said:
I agree with the injustice part. The unjustified anti-Israeli bias and double-standards will be gone soon. Soon enough the free world will realize that we're fighting the same corner.
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Yep unjustified. 2,100 dead Palestinians between July and August alone, women and children. But yep we are being unfair on the Israelis.
 
lem8sh said:
Yep unjustified. 2,100 dead Palestinians between July and August alone, women and children. But yep we are being unfair on the Israelis.
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Poor Israel. I mean they're only being backed at every turn by the strongest military in the world. It's so hard for them. :(
 
lem8sh said:
I'm still in shock at what he just posted tbh. The "unjustified anti Israeli bias" feck me.
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Don't worry, when things get hard just claim anti-Semitism.
 
lem8sh said:
The national team that is trying to qualify for championships of a continent you're not in?
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Boils my piss that they're in the European Qualifiers. A disgrace.
 
Lynk said:
Poor Israel. I mean they're only being backed at every turn by the strongest military in the world. It's so hard for them. :(
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Well to be fair for a very long time their neighbors who played an equal role in keeping up a pretty constant state of war Israel were backed by a country that was at the time at least the equal to the United States in both a political and military sense. Just fortunate for Israel that the Egyptians, Syrians, etc were so piss poor at using all that shiney Soviet made equipment and that their soldiers sucked.
 
Nobody is really questioning that their arab neighbours and their agendas are part of the problem. They are what they are: usually dictatorships that rule incredible intolerant societies. You´d live under constant threat for your life as a jew in those countries.
But does that explain or justify Israel´s politics? Of course not. Israel is in the position of total power over Palestina. Israel could have enforced any kind of resonable two state solution even against the will of the Palestinians long time ago. A solution that would be heavily in favor of Israel. Why didnt that happen? Its quite simple, Israel isnt interested in this scenario. Israel wants permanent control over all palestinian areas, that arent densely populated by Palestinians (=Gaza, Ramallah + 2-4 other cities) and total control over Jerusalem.
The status quo isnt really that bad for them. Israel is not on a diet. They arent under military control by another country. Only few of their people actually die. They can continue their settlement politics. They get significant foreign aid. All in all they are able to prosper.
Its a simple question of power and interest. Every year that goes by, Israel is gaining control over additional land. Of course they continue with that if they are able to.
 
lem8sh said:
Yep unjustified. 2,100 dead Palestinians between July and August alone, women and children. But yep we are being unfair on the Israelis.
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They all are, aren't they?

I'd just add it was yet another "war" that was started by the Palestinians?

I don't know who you are referring to as "we", but no Western civilized country would have reacted differently to an indiscriminate rocket attack on its popualtion centers.
 
Lynk said:
Poor Israel. I mean they're only being backed at every turn by the strongest military in the world. It's so hard for them. :(
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So I guess it's OK to barrage their civilians with rockets, while they are not allowed to return fire because they're strong. Does that stop with chemical weapons, or could we respond to that despite the flattering Jane's Defense Weekly histograms?
 
lem8sh said:
The national team that is trying to qualify for championships of a continent you're not in?
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Funny, isn't it? Nevermind, that continent is getting more ME-like by the day. By the time we make it to the finals you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between Paris and Algiers. Oh wait...
 
Sultan said:
Call me Whelan.

There is definitely a lack of human values, morals, and your country do constantly break international law.
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This is what happens when 2 sides have mutually exclusive goals although the progress in Northern Ireland should perhaps give us some hope because both sides were guilty of some unconscionable behavior that they excused to themselves in much the same way that the Israeli's and Palestinians justify current actions, based on how each side considered themselves to be wronged rather than based on what was the moral thing to do
 
Sometimes you just need to suck it up, talk to people who you consider terrorists and reach a true compromise for the greater and long term good. I don't think either side in this conflict are ready to do this yet. Sadly.
 
PedroMendez said:
But does that explain or justify Israel´s politics? Of course not. Israel is in the position of total power over Palestina. Israel could have enforced any kind of resonable two state solution even against the will of the Palestinians long time ago. A solution that would be heavily in favor of Israel. Why didnt that happen? Its quite simple, Israel isnt interested in this scenario.
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You mean defending a 10-miles wide country from a newly-founded one which doesn't recognize it's right to exist, and enjoys endless supply of weapons to pursue its goals.

PedroMendez said:
Israel wants permanent control over all palestinian areas, that arent densely populated by Palestinians (=Gaza, Ramallah + 2-4 other cities) and total control over Jerusalem.
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Total control of Jerusalem? Read Clinton and Olmert's plans and check for inaacuracy/ignorance on your side.

PedroMendez said:
The status quo isnt really that bad for them. .
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PedroMendez said:
Israel is not on a diet. .
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We could extend the life expectency here, of both Jews and Arabs, if we didn't have to invest so much in a military which is responsible for any life expectency of non-Muslims.

PedroMendez said:
They arent under military control by another country. Only few of their people actually die. .
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Only a few, eh? It's OK to have only a few Jews dead every now and then. Like the hundreds that were blown up on the streets following the infamous Oslo "peace process".

PedroMendez said:
They can continue their settlement politics. .
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But they don't.

PedroMendez said:
They get significant foreign aid. .
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The Palestinians enjoy a huge, unimaginable foreign aid. Is it possible that they have made their suffering a profitable business? Could they reject a settlement because they have no clue how to run a country rather than maintain a struggle?

PedroMendez said:
All in all they are able to prosper..
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We have done extremely well considering the circumstances, I'll give you that

PedroMendez said:
Its a simple question of power and interest. Every year that goes by, Israel is gaining control over additional land. Of course they continue with that if they are able to.
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The territory under Israel's control has steadilly shrunk since 1967.
 
holyland red said:
You mean defending a 10-miles wide country from a newly-founded one which doesn't recognize it's right to exist, and enjoys endless supply of weapons to pursue its goals.
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Wait so is Palestine the newly founded country now?
 
Lynk said:
Israel is not in Europe. They shouldn't be in UEFA.
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Yes, I know that bit of geography. Unfortunately, the Jewish state is not recognized by racist Arabs (and others) who refuse to compete with Israel. This has led to the farcical decision to ban Israel (instead of the racist Arabs) from Asian sport associations, hence we have to compete for European trophies.

It's all a bit surreal. African-Americans playing in Asia and winning European trophies. Maccabi even had an Aussie last season! Globalization at its best.
 
holyland red said:
Yes, I know that bit of geography. Unfortunately, the Jewish state is not recognized by racist Arabs (and others) who refuse to compete with Israel. This has led to the farcical decision to ban Israel (instead of the racist Arabs) from Asian sport associations, hence we have to compete for European trophies.

It's all a bit surreal. African-Americans playing in Asia and winning European trophies. Maccabi even had an Aussie last season! Globalization at its best.
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Surely the Asian governing body should step in? At worst these games should be played behind closed doors.
 
Lynk said:
Surely the Asian governing body should step in? At worst these games should be played behind closed doors.
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I don't see the massive problem with Israel being part of UEFA, the alternative would cause so many problems.
 
Lynk said:
Surely the Asian governing body should step in? At worst these games should be played behind closed doors.
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Hehe...Arab Blatters are not going to "step in", are they? Why should the games be played "behind closed doors"? There is a racist boycott of Israel, the price of which should be paid by the boycotting countries, don't you agree? What would you do if you had to "step in"?
 
Shamwow said:
I don't see the massive problem with Israel being part of UEFA, the alternative would cause so many problems.
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Yes, dealing with racially-motivated boycott of a UN member state could cause so much trouble. Sweeping all this under the carpet is so much easier, and in accordance with the spirit of sport.
 
holyland red said:
Yes, dealing with racially-motivated boycott of a UN member state could cause so much trouble. Sweeping all this under the carpet is so much easier, and in accordance with the spirit of sport.
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You're framing all the criticism of Israel as racially motivated when it isn't.
 
Shooting palestinian footballers in leg is all well and good and not racially motivated at all.
 
Shamwow said:
You're framing all the criticism of Israel as racially motivated when it isn't.
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Ban from Asian sport federations.

Israelis having to compete without the presence of their national flag in international competitions staged in Arab countries.

Arab/Muslim sportsmen and women refusing to compete with Israelis in major sports competitions.


World sport governing bodies do absolutely nothing. Call that what you like.
 
I love how HR is taking the moral high ground on racism. What's your opinion on black "infiltrators" again?
 
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