Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

peterstorey said:
If you don't sort this out soon you'll have a middle-east superpower on your doorstep and a US more concerned with domestic issues. At your peril.
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What ME superpower? There aren't any. The US is obviously has its own interests in mind, but we also have a very basic one we can't compromise. Abbas declared earlier today that the Palestinians will never abandon their so-called right of return, meaning that short of committing national suicide Israel cannot be constructive as suggested here.

We have two more years of hostile US administration to see through. Things have been worse before.
 
peterstorey said:
In 20 years they'll get a lot worse.
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Predicting ME events 20 years from now is quite bold. How do you see 2035 Syria? Will it still exist? How about Jordan? Who will be the next king there, or will the hashemites be fecked off and the country go back to what it was, i.e. part of "Palestine"? Will Iran be nuclear or not? Will there be an Iraq? You have to admit that Israel is an island of stability in comparison.

It's not like Israel is rejecting some generous peace deals too. What's on the table right now are deals that aimed at ending Israel's existence as a Jewish state. How could things get any worse?
 
holyland red said:
It's not like Israel is rejecting some generous peace deals too. What's on the table right now are deals that aimed at ending Israel's existence as a Jewish state. How could things get any worse?
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You show zero desire to sort a two-state solution and continue to build a 'Greater Israel'.
 
peterstorey said:
You show zero desire to sort a two-state solution and continue to build a 'Greater Israel'.
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That "Greater Israel" business is absolute nonsense. Israel will never stop building in Jerusalem with all due respect. I've already pointed out before that there is no construction of new settlements that would prevent a two-state solution if the will was there on both sides. Unfortunately, the Arabs have never agreed to a Jewish Israel which makes.any suggestion of a two-state solution pointless. I doubt recent events in Gaza will increase the prospects of yet another withdrawal too.
 
holyland red said:
That "Greater Israel" business is absolute nonsense. Israel will never stop building in Jerusalem with all due respect. I've already pointed out before that there is no construction of new settlements that would prevent a two-state solution if the will was there on both sides. Unfortunately, the Arabs have never agreed to a Jewish Israel which makes.any suggestion of a two-state solution pointless. I doubt recent events in Gaza will increase the prospects of yet another withdrawal too.
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Why are you building new settlements if you want an equitable solution?
 
Which new settlements?

As I said, no matter how much I want a peaceful solution, the Arabs don't and never have recognized our right for a nation state here. Not when we agreed to accept 100,000 refugees in 1949, and not even in return to the territories captured in 1967 ( the three no's).
 
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Huge new Israeli settlement in West Bank condemned by US and UK
British foreign secretary urges Israel to reverse decision to seize 990 acres of Palestinian land near Gvaot to create new city
 
peterstorey said:
Why are you building new settlements if you want an equitable solution?
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they are not actually building new settlements, but expand the old ones. There is obviously no meaningful difference between those statements, but holyland red will bang about this as evidence, that Israel stopped their settlement policy. He lives in total denial over the fact, that nowadays about 650.000 jewish settlers live in Palestine (compared to 100.000 20 years ago) and doesnt want to understand that this is irreversible. A two state solution is factually dead and nobody can change this anymore.
So why is he and 99% of all politicians in denial about this?
Because the conclusion is very unpleasantness. Its either a lawless reality of permanent suppression and displacement or a one state solution.
 
I have no knowledge of any new city that has been built here for quite a while. I doubt there are any such plans too.
 
Gva'ot (Hebrew: גְּבָעוֹת) is an illegal Israeli outpost[1] located in the West Bank, in the westernmost area of the Gush Etzionsettlement bloc. It is "named for the hills (gva'ot) from which Balaam spoke"[2] according to Numbers 23:9 as the neighbouring settlement Rosh Tzurim.

On 31 August 2014, Israel declared 988 acres of land surrounding Gva'ot as part of state land in West Bank.[3] Gva'ot had yet to be recognized by the Israeli government, due to the lack of defined boundaries, this land appropriation is the first required step to officially recognizing Gva'ot.[3]

As of August 2014, there were 10 families living in Gva'ot.[3] The international community considers Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law, although the Israeli government disputes this.[4]
 
Territorial exchange would have made a two-state solution viable, keeping most of the settlers under Israeli rule.

Thing is that the Arabs would never accept a Jewish Israel so that is a irrelevant. Israel should not evacuate a square inch for anything less than cessation of hostilities, recognition in the Jewish state and no furter future demands.
 
peterstorey said:
Gva'ot (Hebrew: גְּבָעוֹת) is an illegal Israeli outpost[1] located in the West Bank, in the westernmost area of the Gush Etzionsettlement bloc. It is "named for the hills (gva'ot) from which Balaam spoke"[2] according to Numbers 23:9 as the neighbouring settlement Rosh Tzurim.

On 31 August 2014, Israel declared 988 acres of land surrounding Gva'ot as part of state land in West Bank.[3] Gva'ot had yet to be recognized by the Israeli government, due to the lack of defined boundaries, this land appropriation is the first required step to officially recognizing Gva'ot.[3]

As of August 2014, there were 10 families living in Gva'ot.[3] The international community considers Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law, although the Israeli government disputes this.[4]
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An outpost with 10 families, in a territory which is going to remain under Israeli control in exchange for a nearby chunk of land is definitely what is stopping us from the peaceful coexistence Arabs are craving.

..."Huge new Israeli settlement". I bet it's a Guardian piece.
 
peterstorey said:
Death by a thousand cuts. Provocative, unnecessary etc etc,
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There is no question that Israeli governments have been engaged in some draft provocations, and done some silly mistakes which undermined Israeli interests. However, I still believe that if the Palestinians wanted peaceful coexsistence with a Jewish state they'd be living in their independent state long ago.
 
You have the power right now. You can initiate and secure a pretty favourable settlement. In 25 years time with a nuclear Iran you won't have that advantage.
 
peterstorey said:
You have the power right now. You can initiate and secure a pretty favourable settlement. In 25 years time with a nuclear Iran you won't have that advantage.
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A nuclear Iran is bad news for everyone, I agree about that. I'm not sure what you are referring to as an achievable favourable settlement though.

I'm not sure Iran is going to remain a theocracy for 25 years, or become nuclear at all. The prospect of a nuclear Iran raises concerns among many people who are not as willing as Bibi to admit it openly.

Again, with politicians you rarely know their true intentions. I think at this point in time we are drifting away from what could be seen as an achievable two-state solution until fairly recently, settlements or not. This window of opportunity is all but shut because:

1. First and foremost is the inability of Arabs to accept Jewish sovereignty of any territory in the ME.
2. The Palestinians did well to increases the range of their missiles, shaking the Tel Aviv population a bit during the recent Gaza clashes. In contrast to previous events when the periphery had to carry the burden, this time the Israeli population understand that any uncalculated risks in the WB will result in them co-starring the next round.
3. Syria- The Golan Heights survived a two-decade peace campaign by left-wing politicians and mainstream media, trying to market the Assads (the young educated Bashar in particular) as Israel's best bet for lasting peace. I think the 10000s enjoying the current holiday in the Sea of Galillee appreciate not worrying about getting beheaded in what would have been a Syrian territory if the Israeli people had caved in to the pressure from within.
 
holyland red said:
A nuclear Iran is bad news for everyone, I agree about that. I'm not sure what you are referring to as an achievable favourable settlement though.

I'm not sure Iran is going to remain a theocracy for 25 years, or become nuclear at all. The prospect of a nuclear Iran raises concerns among many people who are not as willing as Bibi to admit it openly.
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Iran is a sleeping giant, shackled by theocracy and screwed by the US's regime change 60 years ago. In 20 years' time their young, educated population will throw off the yoke to become the region's super-power (80m people nearly 50% under 25, vast size and natural resources)
 
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peterstorey said:
Iran is a sleeping giant, shackled by theocracy and screwed by the US's regime change 60 years ago. In 20 years' time their young, educated population will throw off the yoke to become the region's super-power (80m people nearly 50% under 25, vast size and natural resources)
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A democratic, liberal Iran would be welcomed here. There is no reason why it should pose any threat to Israel. If anything, Israel and a democratic Iran share interests as well as common enemies/rivals.
 
I seriously doubt Iran poses a threat to Israel. Sounds like the usual existential paranoia being drummed up to keep certain people in political office.
 
Raoul said:
They certainly would not be incentivized to do something that would lead to their own destruction, which is a critical flaw in the argument from the fear mongering side.
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In the words of your favourite "moderate" Iranian, Hashemi Rafsanjani:

"If one day, the Islamic world is also equipped with weapons like those that Israel possesses now, then the imperialists' strategy will reach a standstill because the use of even one nuclear bomb inside Israel will destroy everything. However, it will only harm the Islamic world."

Again, was Deir-a-Zur also fear mongering, or did it turn out to be yet another example of scary Yank ignorance?
 
There's a difference between having nukes to use them and having them as a device to gain leverage in geopolitical affairs. Even the North Koreans don't use theirs. Its all just a game to have a more prominent seat at the table. On the other hand, its likewise understandable why the Israelis are nervy about this given Iran's policy on Israel, as well as the fact that it would effectively negate their nuclear advantage.
 
Not even very good at being Nazis...

Report: Hamas leader's daughter received medical treatment in Israel
Daughter of Ismail Haniyeh was admitted to Tel Aviv hospital in October after suffering complications from routine procedure.

Reuters


A daughter of the leader of Hamas in Gaza was admitted to an Israeli hospital for emergency medical treatment this month after she suffered complications from a routine procedure, two sources familiar with the case said.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4581806,00.html
 
holyland red said:
Not even very good at being Nazis...

Report: Hamas leader's daughter received medical treatment in Israel
Daughter of Ismail Haniyeh was admitted to Tel Aviv hospital in October after suffering complications from routine procedure.

Reuters


A daughter of the leader of Hamas in Gaza was admitted to an Israeli hospital for emergency medical treatment this month after she suffered complications from a routine procedure, two sources familiar with the case said.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4581806,00.html
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They did really good propaganda too
 
Mozza said:
They did really good propaganda too
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Yes, of course, but why send your family members for treatment in Nazi Israel when your Arab brothers are just across the tunnel/Rafah crossing?

Quite interesting too that the entire family of the Hamas leader have been here for treatment, yet Hamas did not allow ordinary Palestinians to get treatment here. Poor Jews.
 
peterstorey said:
You show zero desire to sort a two-state solution and continue to build a 'Greater Israel'.
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Any 'two-state solution' must involve Egypt, Jordan etc given their share of responsibility for the crisis. Land swaps form both former attackers are central to this.
Jordan - as it's 80% of palestine and for choosing to attack Israel in '67 (hence the West Bank problem as well as withdrawing Jordan citizenship rights) and of course Egypt for igniting the war(s) in the first place.

President Sisi's rumoured Sinai package may well be the start of something really special.
 
Fearless said:
Any 'two-state solution' must involve Egypt, Jordan etc given their share of responsibility for the crisis. Land swaps form both former attackers are central to this.
Jordan - as it's 80% of palestine and for choosing to attack Israel in '67 (hence the West Bank problem as well as withdrawing Jordan citizenship rights) and of course Egypt for igniting the war(s) in the first place.

President Sisi's rumoured Sinai package may well be the start of something really special.
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Was such an offer actually made ? Seems everyone is denying it.
 
holyland red said:
Yes, of course, but why send your family members for treatment in Nazi Israel when your Arab brothers are just across the tunnel/Rafah crossing?

Quite interesting too that the entire family of the Hamas leader have been here for treatment, yet Hamas did not allow ordinary Palestinians to get treatment here. Poor Jews.
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If you hadn't been occupying their nation for the past 60 years they'd have the means to take care of themselves
 
Mozza said:
If you hadn't been occupying their nation for the past 60 years they'd have the means to take care of themselves
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Why would the Palestinian leadership deny their general population treatment in Israel, but send their own family members to reap the rewards of Zionism?
 
Just so everyone knows, there have been 5 Palestinian children killed either by settlers running them over, or shot by the IDF in the last week... Where's the worldwide outrage and uproar? Not even a Twitter hashtag?

Honestly, the more and more I see things developing in Palestine, the more I see a Baudrillardian 'hyperreality' coming into being. The world only seems to care once the numbers of dead Arabs go past a certain threshold. And the Arabs? Well, they're the worst. A special place in Hell will be reserved for those bootlicking 'leaders'.
 
rotherham_red said:
Just so everyone knows, there have been 5 Palestinian children killed either by settlers running them over, or shot by the IDF in the last week... Where's the worldwide outrage and uproar? Not even a Twitter hashtag?

Honestly, the more and more I see things developing in Palestine, the more I see a Baudrillardian 'hyperreality' coming into being. The world only seems to care once the numbers of dead Arabs go past a certain threshold. And the Arabs? Well, they're the worst. A special place in Hell will be reserved for those bootlicking 'leaders'.
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Why won't you report the details here then? Sounds like you're in a position to provide a balanced account of recent events.
 
rotherham_red said:
Just so everyone knows, there have been 5 Palestinian children killed either by settlers running them over, or shot by the IDF in the last week... Where's the worldwide outrage and uproar? Not even a Twitter hashtag?

Honestly, the more and more I see things developing in Palestine, the more I see a Baudrillardian 'hyperreality' coming into being. The world only seems to care once the numbers of dead Arabs go past a certain threshold. And the Arabs? Well, they're the worst. A special place in Hell will be reserved for those bootlicking 'leaders'.
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The circus of western journalistic concern has moved on you dummy, it's all about Ebola and Islamic state - get with the programme.
 
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