Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Amir said:
I can't honestly tell you without knowing the specifics. If rockets are being fired from those places or stored there, or if IDF soldiers are being fired on from there, I'd find it hard not to justify it. The other option is just accepting it, which kind of makes the whole operation pointless.
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If the Hamas rockets or Hamas in general even, were causing half the amount of destruction, cost to civilian life, economic damage, etc., as that Israel is currently causing the population of Gaza then I would sort of be able to agree with you. Even if Hamas was causing a real & present risk towards the survival of Israel as a state I could agree with you. However, the facts are that neither are the case and objectively considering the cost of human life and destruction being caused by this offensive is highly disproportionate.
The priority should be, for both sides, to agree an immediate ceasefire to work out a long term peace with each other. This means both sides (and from a Palestinian perspective I by side I don’t mean just Hamas, but the Palestinians in general) making enormous concessions.
 
Rams said:
If the Hamas rockets or Hamas in general even, were causing half the amount of destruction, cost to civilian life, economic damage, etc., as that Israel is currently causing the population of Gaza then I would sort of be able to agree with you. Even if Hamas was causing a real & present risk towards the survival of Israel as a state I could agree with you. However, the facts are that neither are the case and objectively considering the cost of human life and destruction being caused by this offensive is highly disproportionate.
The priority should be, for both sides, to agree an immediate ceasefire to work out a long term peace with each other. This means both sides (and from a Palestinian perspective I by side I don’t mean just Hamas, but the Palestinians in general) making enormous concessions.
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Disproportionate you claim?

And by what system of agreed weights and measures do you base this upon?

Or, when you've failed to find that answer, I'll take any precedent that has clear parallels.
 
Fearless said:
Disproportionate you claim?

And by what system of agreed weights and measures do you base this upon?

Or, when you've failed to find that answer, I'll take any precedent that has clear parallels.
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Well, that depends how much you take human life into regard. Most people would objectively regard the killing of 1,300 mostly civilians within approx. 2 weeks, including many women & children, disproportionate over the damage done by either the Hamas rockets or tunnels over the past year or so. (With due regard that the cause of the offensive was the murder of the 3 kids by those Hamas members. Not that 2 wrongs make a right, or in this case 1,300 wrongs and 3 wrongs .)
 
Rams said:
If the Hamas rockets or Hamas in general even, were causing half the amount of destruction, cost to civilian life, economic damage, etc., as that Israel is currently causing the population of Gaza then I would sort of be able to agree with you. Even if Hamas was causing a real & present risk towards the survival of Israel as a state I could agree with you. However, the facts are that neither are the case and objectively considering the cost of human life and destruction being caused by this offensive is highly disproportionate.
The priority should be, for both sides, to agree an immediate ceasefire to work out a long term peace with each other. This means both sides (and from a Palestinian perspective I by side I don’t mean just Hamas, but the Palestinians in general) making enormous concessions.
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The rocket fire in recent weeks is the main reason for a very destructive economic situation. Even if I'm discounting the damage to the central area of Israel - though it exists there as well - and just focus on the southern part, that's ten of thousands of businesses massively affected, that's huge damage for agriculture, that's tourism close to being dead in Israel for large parts of the country - and not just right now. It'll take months to recover, just like in previous cases. Israel, and those civilians, cannot be - in a way - hostages to Hamas.

I just don't believe Israel's response should be affected by the face we have Iron Dome, which has saved dozens of lives and massive damage (not as much as in Gaza, granted, but bad enough). It's insane that somewhere between cities in Israel, there's a missile launcher that's waiting for the moment it will have to save people. Absolutely insane, and cannot be accepted.
 
Rams said:
Well, that depends how much you take human life into regard. Most people would objectively regard the killing of 1,300 mostly civilians within approx. 2 weeks, including many women & children, disproportionate over the damage done by either the Hamas rockets or tunnels over the past year or so. (With due regard that the cause of the offensive was the murder of the 3 kids by those Hamas members. Not that 2 wrongs make a right, or in this case 1,300 wrongs and 3 wrongs .)
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1300 civilians, eh? The IDF must have done a tremendous job avoiding Hamas casualties.
 
I just don't believe Israel's response should be affected by the face we have Iron Dome, which has saved dozens of lives and massive damage (not as much as in Gaza, granted, but bad enough). It's insane that somewhere between cities in Israel, there's a missile launcher that's waiting for the moment it will have to save people. Absolutely insane, and cannot be accepted.[/QUOTE]

Without Iron Dome the condemnation would be just the same (probably more actually, seeing as Israel would go in harder if civilian's were dying).
 
Rams said:
Well, that depends how much you take human life into regard. Most people would objectively regard the killing of 1,300 mostly civilians within approx. 2 weeks, including many women & children, disproportionate over the damage done by either the Hamas rockets or tunnels over the past year or so. (With due regard that the cause of the offensive was the murder of the 3 kids by those Hamas members. Not that 2 wrongs make a right, or in this case 1,300 wrongs and 3 wrongs .)
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I asked you by what system of agreed weights and measures you based 'disproportionate' on.

You haven't answered.
 
Amir said:
The rocket fire in recent weeks is the main reason for a very destructive economic situation. Even if I'm discounting the damage to the central area of Israel - though it exists there as well - and just focus on the southern part, that's ten of thousands of businesses massively affected, that's huge damage for agriculture, that's tourism close to being dead in Israel for large parts of the country - and not just right now. It'll take months to recover, just like in previous cases. Israel, and those civilians, cannot be - in a way - hostages to Hamas.

I just don't believe Israel's response should be affected by the face we have Iron Dome, which has saved dozens of lives and massive damage (not as much as in Gaza, granted, but bad enough). It's insane that somewhere between cities in Israel, there's a missile launcher that's waiting for the moment it will have to save people. Absolutely insane, and cannot be accepted.
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Yeah, it's a shite state of affairs. You can never know when the system will fail, or when the rockets being fired at you will be improved to a point where it is no longer effective. Obviously not a solution that is sustainable beyond the very short term. I agree that Israel need to respond to these rockets as though the Iron Dome isn't in place. Of course, I don't think they way they're responding is appropriate. It's the long-range, indiscriminate killing that so many people find hard to accept, me included. Especially when you're talking about an enemy that is packed into a tiny area and embedded within the civilian population.
 
holyland red said:
1300 civilians, eh? The IDF must have done a tremendous job avoiding Hamas casualties.
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Over 1400 people have been killed.

Even if they got 400 of Hamas(highly unlikely they got that many) there are still over 9,500 of them left and I would think thousands of young men radicalized and waiting to join. They will probably have more members than before when Israel stop.
 
thegregster said:
Over 1400 people have been killed.

Even if they got 400 of Hamas(highly unlikely they got that many) there are still over 9,500 of them left and I would think thousands of young men radicalized and waiting to join. They will probably have more members than before when Israel stop.
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Every time you kill a father, there is a son that might turn to extremism. Every time you kill a son, the same can happen with the father.

As much as I criticise Israel though, what's the fecking solution?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Of course, I don't think they way they're responding is appropriate. It's the long-range, indiscriminate killing that so many people find hard to accept, me included. Especially when you're talking about an enemy that is packed into a tiny area and embedded within the civilian population.
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Problem is none of us know whether any response we make can have any real affect if we're extra careful not to harm innocent people. It's not just the rockets anymore, it's tunnels leading past the border and straight into the middle of where Israelis live. Some of those tunnels actually start inside homes in the Gaza Strip and who knows where else. Which means going there, and going there forcefully, is something that has to be done, at least from our point of view. Otherwise those citizens in Israel will live in constant fear of waking up and finding a few terrorists in their homes.
 
thegregster said:
Over 1400 people have been killed.

Even if they got 400 of Hamas(highly unlikely they got that many) there are still over 9,500 of them left and I would think thousands of young men radicalized and waiting to join. They will probably have more members than before when Israel stop.
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I don't know how many were killed, and I certainly don't know how many of these were combatants. How the hell do you know? What is with this conflict that people form opinions and get so emotional without having the faintest idea on what's going on? Rams' figure of 1300 dead civilians and yours (not even 400 combatants) too are figures you pulled out of your arses, yet they are presented here as god given truths.
 
Grinner said:
Iron Dome isn't a very sexy name. Sounds like summat Brunel would have engineered.
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It's part of a set. A technological replacement for the Iron Wall.

"Zionist colonisation must either stop, or else proceed regardless of the native population. Which means that it can proceed and develop only under the protection of a power that is independent of the native population – behind an iron wall, which the native population cannot breach." 1923, Jabotinsky.

My formatting.
 
Even without the bombing and deaths, the way in which Gaza has been and is being handled by Israel is not sustainable or acceptable and will only serve to create more problems in the future.

I know it's not simple for Israel especially now that they have allowed Hamas to take control but they have done nothing to help the situation and it's pretty clear that things are only going to get worse.
 
holyland red said:
I don't know how many were killed, and I certainly don't know how many of these were combatants. How the hell do you know? What is with this conflict that people form opinions and get so emotional without having the faintest idea on what's going on? Rams' figure of 1300 dead civilians and yours (not even 400 combatants) too are figures you pulled out of your arses, yet they are presented here as god given truths.
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You're one to talk you absolute muppet.

You say that 1300 is a number he pulled out of his ass. Perhaps you would like to argue with United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, because their official figures (at the time of this post) is 1263. 58 that's the number of Israeli deaths. 2 civilians and 56 soldiers.


http://www.ochaopt.org/content.aspx?id=1010361. There click on that, of course by the time you do it will probably have gone up a bit more.

Israel keeps talking about a right to respond to fire, they sure do. But shouldn't that be returned with an equal amount? By their own spokesperson's admission the IDF has said that 80 percent of their victims are not Hamas but civilians. Yet somehow we have to keep listening to this overwhelming propaganda from your like.

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/14/5898581/chart-israel-palestine-conflict-deaths
That chart (vox link) shows the deaths in the conflict from the start of the millennium by now this too is probably dated. If you are reading this far you will have starting frothing at the mouth about credibility of that site. So I'll tell you - It's also a site run by mostly by Jews who worked for U.S. establishment mouthpieces for years, in fact individually they advocate some of the most modest positions around.

You seem to be on this thread round the clock and yet your overall contribution has been to set up a row of straw men, some time back I made a comment on another thread and was called out by @Eboue as a nuisance for posting a row of green smileys , THAT post was still better than anything useful you have said in this thread. Get a brain, better yet, get some empathy.
 
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Haddock said:
Israel keeps talking about a right to respond to fire, they sure do. But shouldn't that be returned with an equal amount?
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Seriously? What country would do that? 'We want to stop you from doing what you're doing, and our weapons are far stronger, but we'll try to respond by returning a similarly strong fire and nothing more'.
 
Amir said:
Seriously? What country would do that? 'We want to stop you from doing what you're doing, and our weapons are far stronger, but we'll try to respond by returning a similarly strong fire and nothing more'.
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What about using the analogy of a man in a prison cell (with other prisoners) who has found some rocks and starts throwing them at the guards, so the guards respond by throwing a grenade in?
 
Shamwow said:
What about using the analogy of a man in a prison cell (with other prisoners) who has found some rocks and starts throwing them at the guards, so the guards respond by throwing a grenade in?
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The only way this analogy can be used in comparison is if Hamas's rockets really weren't that much danger. Except they are, it's just our (not full proof) defensive capabilities that manage to nullify them.
 
Haddock said:
You're one to talk you absolute muppet.

You say that 1300 is a number he pulled out of his ass. Perhaps you would like to argue with United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, because their official figures (at the time of this post) is 1263. 58 that's the number of Israeli deaths. 2 civilians and 56 soldiers.


http://www.ochaopt.org/content.aspx?id=1010361. There click on that, of course by the time you do it will probably have gone up a bit more.
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So its 1300 civilians out of 1263 casualties?

Haddock said:
Israel keeps talking about a right to respond to fire, they sure do. But shouldn't that be returned with an equal amount? By their own spokesperson's admission the IDF has said that 80 percent of their victims are not Hamas but civilians. Yet somehow we have to keep listening to this overwhelming propaganda from your like.
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I have not heard the IDF spokesman quoting that figure. And no, we don't have to return fire in equal amount. Where did you get that daft idea from? Last I heard the Yanks didn't fly airline jets into two mud huts in Kabul.

Haddock said:
http://www.vox.com/2014/7/14/5898581/chart-israel-palestine-conflict-deaths
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Haddock said:
That chart (vox link) shows the deaths in the conflict from the start of the millennium by now this too is probably dated. If you are reading this far you will have starting frothing at the mouth about credibility of that site. So I'll tell you - It's also a site run by mostly by Jews who worked for U.S. establishment mouthpieces for years, in fact individually they advocate some of the most modest positions around.
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Run by Jews? What does that have to do with anything?

Haddock said:
You seem to be on this thread round the clock and yet your overall contribution has been to set up a row of straw men, some time back I made a comment on another thread and was called out by @Eboue as a nuisance for posting a row of green smileys , THAT post was still better than anything useful you have said in this thread. Get a brain, better yet, get some empathy.
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I blame Eboue. He should never have dug you out of your green smiley thread.
 
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moses said:
It's part of a set. A technological replacement for the Iron Wall.

"Zionist colonisation must either stop, or else proceed regardless of the native population. Which means that it can proceed and develop only under the protection of a power that is independent of the native population – behind an iron wall, which the native population cannot breach." 1923, Jabotinsky.

My formatting.
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Agreement Between Emir Feisal and Dr. Weizmann[16]

3 January 1919

His Royal Highness the Emir Feisal, representing and acting on behalf of the Arab Kingdom of Hedjaz, and Dr. Chaim Weizmann, representing and acting on behalf of the Zionist Organization, mindful of the racial kinship and ancient bonds existing between the Arabs and the Jewish people, and realizing that the surest means of working out the consummation of their natural aspirations is through the closest possible collaboration in the development of the Arab State and Palestine, and being desirous further of confirming the good understanding which exists between them, have agreed upon the following:

Articles:

  • Article I (*Arab State and Palestine? Can one be any clearer about Palestine not being Arab?)
The Arab State and Palestine in all their relations and undertakings shall be controlled by the most cordial goodwill and understanding, and to this end Arab and Jewish duly accredited agents shall be established and maintained in the respective territories.

  • Article II
Immediately following the completion of the deliberations of the Peace Conference, the definite boundaries between the Arab State and Palestine shall be determined by a Commission to be agreed upon by the parties hereto.

  • Article III
In the establishment of the Constitution and Administration of Palestine, all such measures shall be adopted as will afford the fullest guarantees for carrying into effect the British Government's Declaration of the 2nd of November, 1917. (*That's the Balfour declaration)

  • Article IV
All necessary measures shall be taken to encourage and stimulate immigration of Jews into Palestine on a large scale, and as quickly as possible to settle Jewish immigrants upon the land through closer settlement and intensive cultivation of the soil. In taking such measures the Arab peasant and tenant farmers shall be protected in their rights and shall be assisted in forwarding their economic development.

  • Article V
No regulation or law shall be made prohibiting or interfering in any way with the free exercise of religion; and further, the free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination or preference, shall forever be allowed. No religious test shall ever be required for the exercise of civil or political rights.

  • Article VI
The Mohammedan Holy Places shall be under Mohammedan control.

  • Article VII
The Zionist Organization proposes to send to Palestine a Commission of experts to make a survey of the economic possibilities of the country, and to report upon the best means for its development. The Zionist Organization will place the aforementioned Commission at the disposal of the Arab State for the purpose of a survey of the economic possibilities of the Arab State and to report upon the best means for its development. The Zionist Organization will use its best efforts to assist the Arab State in providing the means for developing the natural resources and economic possibilities thereof.

  • Article VIII
The parties hereto agree to act in complete accord and harmony on all matters embraced herein before the Peace Congress.

  • Article IX
Any matters of dispute which may arise between the contracting parties hall be referred to the British Government for arbitration.

Given under our hand at London, England, the third day of January, one thousand nine hundred and nineteen

Chaim Weizmann Feisal Ibn-Hussein

Reservation by the Emir Feisal

If the Arabs are established as I have asked in my manifesto of 4 January, addressed to the British Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, I will carry out what is written in this agreement. If changes are made, I cannot be answerable for failing to carry out this agreement.
 
Haddock said:
You're one to talk you absolute muppet.

You say that 1300 is a number he pulled out of his ass. Perhaps you would like to argue with United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, because their official figures (at the time of this post) is 1263. 58 that's the number of Israeli deaths. 2 civilians and 56 soldiers.


http://www.ochaopt.org/content.aspx?id=1010361. There click on that, of course by the time you do it will probably have gone up a bit more.

Israel keeps talking about a right to respond to fire, they sure do. But shouldn't that be returned with an equal amount? By their own spokesperson's admission the IDF has said that 80 percent of their victims are not Hamas but civilians. Yet somehow we have to keep listening to this overwhelming propaganda from your like.

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/14/5898581/chart-israel-palestine-conflict-deaths
That chart (vox link) shows the deaths in the conflict from the start of the millennium by now this too is probably dated. If you are reading this far you will have starting frothing at the mouth about credibility of that site. So I'll tell you - It's also a site run by mostly by Jews who worked for U.S. establishment mouthpieces for years, in fact individually they advocate some of the most modest positions around.

You seem to be on this thread round the clock and yet your overall contribution has been to set up a row of straw men, some time back I made a comment on another thread and was called out by @Eboue as a nuisance for posting a row of green smileys , THAT post was still better than anything useful you have said in this thread. Get a brain, better yet, get some empathy.
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Interestingly the last link you posted mentions that since 2000 Israelis and Palestinians were dying in almost equal numbers. Until the point when Israel decided to fully prioritise the implementation of defensive measures whilst Hamas went into a total attack mode, firing thousands of rockets and perfecting their cynical human shields strategy. This is where the numbers start getting disproportionate, Israel going mad on defending its population by any means necessary and the Hamas not giving a flying feck about any number of dead men women and children.

Btw, what about the dozen of Palestinian casualties killed due to the rockets falling short? Collateral damage?
 
holyland red said:
Agreement Between Emir Feisal and Dr. Weizmann[16]
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Feisal had no authority or mandate to make any such agreement. He was quite happy to notionally sell the Palestinians down the river to further his own aims (which were about to be fecked over by the British and French, as he seems to fear in his coda) . Unsurprisingly this 'agreement' had no real world impact.
 
peterstorey said:
Feisal had no authority or mandate to make any such agreement. He was quite happy to notionally sell the Palestinians down the river to further his own aims (which were about to be fecked over by the British and French, as he seems to fear in his coda) . Unsurprisingly this 'agreement' had no real world impact.
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The point, Pete, was that he didn't even know what "Palestinians" meant.

Who had a mandate to represent the Arabs that lived in mandatory Palestine anyway? Were they any different to Syrian, Iraqi, Lebanese or Egyptian Arabs?
 
holyland red said:
I don't know how many were killed, and I certainly don't know how many of these were combatants. How the hell do you know? What is with this conflict that people form opinions and get so emotional without having the faintest idea on what's going on? Rams' figure of 1300 dead civilians and yours (not even 400 combatants) too are figures you pulled out of your arses, yet they are presented here as god given truths.
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The UN.


(ANSAmed) - NEW YORK, JULY 31 - UN humanitarian affairs chief Valerie Amos told the Security Council on Thursday that over 80% of those killed in Gaza were civilians, including 251 children. The statements were made in a videoconference at the emergency meeting of the UN Security Council. Seven UN staff were among those killed. She added that the number of displaced in the Gaza Strip had exceeded 400,000 people, including 240,000 staying in UN facilities, she continued. She added that ''no place in Gaza is safe''.(ANSAmed).
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80% of 1400 is 1120. So less than 400 Hamas operatives were killed.

So we still have thousands of Hamas operatives who are safe and thousands more who are now likely to want to join.
 
holyland red said:
The point, Pete, was that he didn't even know what "Palestinians" meant.

Who had a mandate to represent the Arabs that lived in mandatory Palestine anyway? Were they any different to Syrian, Iraqi, Lebanese or Egyptian Arabs?
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I think he did but he didn't give two fecks about them since they weren't 'proper' Arabs in his estimation. The people who actually lived in Palestine were the people who had a right to represent themselves and follow the path of.... self-determination.
 
thegregster said:
The UN.




80% of 1400 is 1120. So less than 400 Hamas operatives were killed.

So we still have thousands of Hamas operatives who are safe and thousands more who are now likely to want to join.
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So it wasn't 1300 civilians even according to the UN? Just checked the UN figures, and found that there were ~400 women and children among the casualties. That's roughly 1000 adult men out of about 1400 dead. I'm not sure the UN could determine whether every adult male casualty was combatants or not.
 
peterstorey said:
I think he did but he didn't give two fecks about them since they weren't 'proper' Arabs in his estimation. The people who actually lived in Palestine were the people who had a right to represent themselves and follow the path of.... self-determination.
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They did, as did their neighbouring Jews. Things could have worked out so much better had they not decided to define their national identity as opposition to Zionism. Mandatory Palestine included tons of space for both peoples.
 
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