Youtube Gaza and Jon Snow and take it from there.
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
- Thread starter Raoul
- Start date
Youtube Gaza and Jon Snow and take it from there.
Agreed, and I do feel the lack of outcry from our governements also animates us. We are usually rightly, not shy to condemn the killing of children. It may be a lazy morality, but we feel a bit better if our spokepeople actually speak what we feel.
Lol, 'vague allegations'. Where have you been the last three weeks Moses? Please don't remove them though, Hellboy et al would run out of the vocabulary required for this discussion otherwise.
Israeli officer: I was right to shoot 13-year-old child
Radio exchange contradicts army version of Gaza killing
An Israeli army officer who repeatedly shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza dismissed a warning from another soldier that she was a child by saying he would have killed her even if she was three years old.
The officer, identified by the army only as Captain R, was charged this week with illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and other relatively minor infractions after emptying all 10 bullets from his gun's magazine into Iman al-Hams when she walked into a "security area" on the edge of Rafah refugee camp last month.
A tape recording of radio exchanges between soldiers involved in the incident, played on Israeli television, contradicts the army's account of the events and appears to show that the captain shot the girl in cold blood.
The official account claimed that Iman was shot as she walked towards an army post with her schoolbag because soldiers feared she was carrying a bomb.
But the tape recording of the radio conversation between soldiers at the scene reveals that, from the beginning, she was identified as a child and at no point was a bomb spoken about nor was she described as a threat. Iman was also at least 100 yards from any soldier.
Instead, the tape shows that the soldiers swiftly identified her as a "girl of about 10" who was "scared to death".
The tape also reveals that the soldiers said Iman was headed eastwards, away from the army post and back into the refugee camp, when she was shot.
At that point, Captain R took the unusual decision to leave the post in pursuit of the girl. He shot her dead and then "confirmed the kill" by emptying his magazine into her body.
The tape recording is of a three-way conversation between the army watchtower, the army post's operations room and the captain, who was a company commander.
The soldier in the watchtower radioed his colleagues after he saw Iman: "It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward."
Operations room: "Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?"
Watchtower: "A girl of about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death."
A few minutes later, Iman is shot in the leg from one of the army posts.
The watchtower: "I think that one of the positions took her out."
The company commander then moves in as Iman lies wounded and helpless.
Captain R: "I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over."
Witnesses described how the captain shot Iman twice in the head, walked away, turned back and fired a stream of bullets into her body. Doctors at Rafah's hospital said she had been shot at least 17 times.
On the tape, the company commander then "clarifies" why he killed Iman: "This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over."
The army's original account of the killing said that the soldiers only identified Iman as a child after she was first shot. But the tape shows that they were aware just how young the small, slight girl was before any shots were fired.
The case came to light after soldiers under the command of Captain R went to an Israeli newspaper to accuse the army of covering up the circumstances of the killing.
A subsequent investigation by the officer responsible for the Gaza strip, Major General Dan Harel, concluded that the captain had "not acted unethically".
However, the military police launched an investigation, which resulted in charges against the unit commander.
Iman's parents have accused the army of whitewashing the affair by filing minor charges against Captain R. They want him prosecuted for murder.
Record of a shooting
Watchtower
'It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward'
Operations room
'Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?'
Watchtower
'A girl of about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death'
Captain R (after killing the girl)
'Anything moving in the zone, even a three-year-old, needs to be killed'
If an Israeli officer sets protocol like "anything moving in the zone, even a three year old, needs to be killed", then its hardly a surprised so many children have been killed.
Radio exchange contradicts army version of Gaza killing
An Israeli army officer who repeatedly shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza dismissed a warning from another soldier that she was a child by saying he would have killed her even if she was three years old.
The officer, identified by the army only as Captain R, was charged this week with illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and other relatively minor infractions after emptying all 10 bullets from his gun's magazine into Iman al-Hams when she walked into a "security area" on the edge of Rafah refugee camp last month.
A tape recording of radio exchanges between soldiers involved in the incident, played on Israeli television, contradicts the army's account of the events and appears to show that the captain shot the girl in cold blood.
The official account claimed that Iman was shot as she walked towards an army post with her schoolbag because soldiers feared she was carrying a bomb.
But the tape recording of the radio conversation between soldiers at the scene reveals that, from the beginning, she was identified as a child and at no point was a bomb spoken about nor was she described as a threat. Iman was also at least 100 yards from any soldier.
Instead, the tape shows that the soldiers swiftly identified her as a "girl of about 10" who was "scared to death".
The tape also reveals that the soldiers said Iman was headed eastwards, away from the army post and back into the refugee camp, when she was shot.
At that point, Captain R took the unusual decision to leave the post in pursuit of the girl. He shot her dead and then "confirmed the kill" by emptying his magazine into her body.
The tape recording is of a three-way conversation between the army watchtower, the army post's operations room and the captain, who was a company commander.
The soldier in the watchtower radioed his colleagues after he saw Iman: "It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward."
Operations room: "Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?"
Watchtower: "A girl of about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death."
A few minutes later, Iman is shot in the leg from one of the army posts.
The watchtower: "I think that one of the positions took her out."
The company commander then moves in as Iman lies wounded and helpless.
Captain R: "I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over."
Witnesses described how the captain shot Iman twice in the head, walked away, turned back and fired a stream of bullets into her body. Doctors at Rafah's hospital said she had been shot at least 17 times.
On the tape, the company commander then "clarifies" why he killed Iman: "This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over."
The army's original account of the killing said that the soldiers only identified Iman as a child after she was first shot. But the tape shows that they were aware just how young the small, slight girl was before any shots were fired.
The case came to light after soldiers under the command of Captain R went to an Israeli newspaper to accuse the army of covering up the circumstances of the killing.
A subsequent investigation by the officer responsible for the Gaza strip, Major General Dan Harel, concluded that the captain had "not acted unethically".
However, the military police launched an investigation, which resulted in charges against the unit commander.
Iman's parents have accused the army of whitewashing the affair by filing minor charges against Captain R. They want him prosecuted for murder.
Record of a shooting
Watchtower
'It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward'
Operations room
'Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?'
Watchtower
'A girl of about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death'
Captain R (after killing the girl)
'Anything moving in the zone, even a three-year-old, needs to be killed'
If an Israeli officer sets protocol like "anything moving in the zone, even a three year old, needs to be killed", then its hardly a surprised so many children have been killed.
LOL indeed, I found the 'zionist scum' post and infracted him. I tend not to read all of the posts, only the people I am debating with, so yet again, please report the posts you find offensive or stop bitching about it. It was vague because it wasn't quoted, he said Zionist was the issue, when really the issue was 'zionist scum'. It's not rocket science to report an offensive post.
Speechless.
Thanks, will take a browse now.
I don't know who he was referring to as beasts, but how about calling a country (obviously not the Jews) a cancer among other titles?
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I heard about this "shooting anything that moves" concept when I was at the India-Pakistan border and talking to the Indian soldier who was in charge of that post on the border, but that was strictly for movement in the "No Man's Land" that separated the two borders, as they were wary of explosives being sent on camels or other moving things. Highly doubt the scenario is similar here. Just seems barbaric on the soldier's part and nothing else.
Ok, then stop bringing them up as some sort of injustice. I have explained before I don't read all the posts.
Yes, this is tragic
For your clarification, I am not ridiculing any Semitic languages. I'd call the use of any language other than English "scribbling" in this thread as it might as well be for all my ability to comprehend it.
My regard for Hebrew is pretty high for obvious reasons. Still don't understand a word of it myself.
You haven't missed a single post in which I suggested double standards here. Well done.
Here's a vidieo the attack at the market yesterday:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/jul/31/camera-crew-captures-strike-near-gaza-ambulance
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/jul/31/camera-crew-captures-strike-near-gaza-ambulance
Relax Herman, I wasn't being serious, and I suspect you're probably not an anti-Semite.
It suggests that deaths of civilians - particularly children, are more systemic than we assume.
No, I have (wearily) said twice that I mainly just read the posts of people I am debating with. You don't seem to though.
I have only infracted people in this thread for anti Isreal posts, double standards you say? Should I infract you to balance it up?
Systemic? The death of a child in October 2004?
Didn't realise the story was 10 years old, must have been article hopping, apologies. Still a distressing read nonetheless.
Reading things that soldiers do in wars is always distressing, people always commit terrible acts in these environments. We need to be careful not to demonise Israel and Israeli soldiers. What's going on can be opposed and criticised entirely on it's own merit and on what is factually happening because that's bad enough. Not specifically directed at you I just thought this was a decent segue.
Absolutely. IDF soldiers, as with many militaries, follow orders. With groups like Breaking the Silence I have faith that not all of them are brazen about what's happening in Gaza.
'You kno nothin Jon Snow' - We have all thought it for fek sake. Someone needed to say it
I can't get into the head of a soldier in those places. Obviously there are some right creeps who have no place in the army, barely in human society. On the other hand, we are talking about 18-19-20 year olds who sometimes have to make a split second decision. And the wrong one might mean their own death. It's a terrible situation for all involved.
It's bad when it's the west bank in general, it's far more extreme right now in Gaza, with houses being loaded with weapons, bombs, and also provide entry to those tunnels. It's easy to say 'don't harm children, don't harm the innocent'. Is it possible? Certainly, in a very surgical operation that will mean the deaths of hunderds of Israeli soldiers. In other words, it's not going to happen.
It's bad when it's the west bank in general, it's far more extreme right now in Gaza, with houses being loaded with weapons, bombs, and also provide entry to those tunnels. It's easy to say 'don't harm children, don't harm the innocent'. Is it possible? Certainly, in a very surgical operation that will mean the deaths of hunderds of Israeli soldiers. In other words, it's not going to happen.
don't do that to newbies man. To be fair your Arabic and Hebrew scribbling is terrible, it all looks the same. And you write from right to left so get lost with that. We should all be speaking and writing in English, the lingua franca.
Agreed. Good history lesson. Although I'm always skeptical when it comes to these articles.
Even if that is the case does this justify the fact that over 1,300 mainly Palestinian civilians, many women & children included, have been killed by the Israeli's during this offensive? Does it justify the bombing of UN schools for example?
Yeah, you always have to be aware of the underlying agenda of the author and any potential for bias that may cause. Of course, that applies to everything you read. Even academic journals!
To be fair your Arabic and Hebrew scribbling is terrible, it all looks the same. And you write from right to left so get lost with that. We should all be speaking and writing in English, the lingua franca.
The ancient world was doing just swell with Aramaic scriptures. English doesn't make sense to me phonetically, strange Europeans.
Especially academic journals! Sneaky bastards.
The ancient world was doing just swell with Aramaic scriptures. English doesn't make sense to me phonetically, strange Europeans.
Oh I agree. To this day I can't figure what people mean when they start spelling. The I as an E and the A is an EJ. That's why Serbian is the best, you always pronounce every single letter.
'Leigh' should be spelled 'Li', ffs.
I can't honestly tell you without knowing the specifics. If rockets are being fired from those places or stored there, or if IDF soldiers are being fired on from there, I'd find it hard not to justify it. The other option is just accepting it, which kind of makes the whole operation pointless.
Made the headlines for several years here. The charges, trial, acquittal, TV documentary, a libel case pressed by the officer against the TV channel, which he won.
This is like when you have a disagreement with your wife and you're throwing all of these rational points at her but she ends up winning the arguement simply because she can cry and shout the loudest.
Sean Hannity's response to Russell Brand. It's insane how childish he is, and that I had never heard of him before today.
Only one person talking sense in that conversation
Jebus, how does Fox News get such high ratings in the US? Hamas TV is probably more progressive than it