Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Mihajlovic said:
That's the what the frustration is about though. Surely there's room for a mutual acknowledgement of, let's say, a shared suffering. "Let's forgive each other", for example, instead of "I hope we can forgive you!" Why is that so difficult to express?
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Again, it is meant to be partial. The Israeli view is well represented within Israel. The author is someone who lives/lived in Israel and tried to tell the other side of the story. So it is not surprising that there is a certain emphasis on Palestinian suffering as well as part of the Palestinian society not being able to get over some things that happened in the past. In the end, every understanding will of course have to include acknowledgement of both sides for each other's suffering and both sides will have to forgive each other. But that won't happen as long as the spirit demonstrated by holyland red prevails where each side looks for an excuse to dismiss the other side's story.

You can be open and accept his story as a mosaic of the bigger picture without neglecting that there are other elements, too. No story will ever incorporate every aspect and be completely balanced in everyone's eyes. Some people are able to acknowledge that, other use it as an excuse to dismiss it.
 
Mihajlovic said:
I'm merely pointing out that if you're looking for true reconciliation then we both need to make that step. I will recognize your plight and acknowledge the injustice done to you but it's only fair if you do the same and we both forgive each other and fecking move on.
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of course both sides need to make a step. Its a marathon, but both sides insist, that they´ll only start running if the other side reached the finish line; so nobody ever starts running. You can make the first steps without the other side doing the same. When one side reach out, people on the other side of the fence will acknowledge that and do the same. You´ll never break any vicious circle, if you expect the others to do the first step.
 
Well part of the reason I've been banging on about the historic injustice meted out to the Palestinians is that this needs to be acknowledged and some measure of reparation applied to any settlement. So there needs to be a measure of truth and reconciliation before moving on to an equitable two-state solution.
 
peterstorey said:
Well part of the reason I've been banging on about the historic injustice meted out to the Palestinians is that this needs to be acknowledged and some measure of reparation applied to any settlement. So there needs to be a measure of truth and reconciliation before moving on to an equitable two-state solution.
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Bit of a one-sided position, unsurprisingly.
 
Raoul said:
Where's your passion for all the Syrians that have been murdered over the past couple of years ?
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Why the continuous comparisons to other countries with shocking records? Why is it not possible to discuss this on merit?

Also if you don't see the unique circumstances here I would be mystified. It's to do with the scale of the deaths in terms of time, consistency and also the fact that for so long our western governments have displayed shocking double standards. Our governments would have no issue speaking out agaist Syria and China (the other comparison made earlier) and Hamas.

The people of Palestine are being killed on top of having their basic rights removed, all with the seeming ok from our governments against the will of their electorates. It's the apparent impunity with which Israel kills children that grates. If our governments did thier job, we wouldn't feel so angered by the situation.

There is no debate about Syria, China and Hamas and what shits they are. If people started defending the killing in Syria you might see a similar reaction. Not so with Israel, with them the worst thing said is that it's tit for tat. The reality is that it's a mismatch of David and Goliath proportions. Israel and her allies are unrivalled. And a mismatch always resonates.
 
Mihajlovic said:
Bit of a one-sided position, unsurprisingly.
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Well the idea that you have to balance every sentence is infuriating. The palestinians have been the victims of a major and ongoing injustice, it's a pretty factual statement. You accept that and move on. That's how healing works.
 
holyland red said:
Italian Reporter Confirms Deaths In Al-Shati Result Of Hamas Misfire, Not Israeli Missile
Reporter could not confirm until away from potential Hamas retaliation.

http://www.truthrevolt.org/israel-r...hati-result-hamas-misfire-not-israeli-missile
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That website :lol:

I clicked on it and was immediately encouraged to by a Ben Shapiro book called "How to debate Leftists and Destroy them", only to finally get onto the site to see the headline story (just above a story titled "Why Stupid Leftists Succeed") called "A Brief History of Mental Illness" which includes such enlightening insights on mental health as...

Well, looking back, I can say that while I didn’t go full progressive – you should never go full progressive! – I did have some whacky ideas. I’d think and say things like:

If a criminal breaks into my apartment and steals my TV set in order to buy himself something to eat, then that’s okay because I’m bright and educated and I can always go get another TV set. Or:

Why do we need guns when we have the police? Or:

If we’d just raise taxes and give poor people money there wouldn’t be any more poverty.

I was mentally ill. I was mentally ill because I passionately believed in things that I knew nothing about, that’s why.
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I might start linking to the Marxist/Leninst Blogspot in every response to you from now on..It's about as fecking balanced.
 
moses said:
Well the idea that you have to balance every sentence is infuriating. The palestinians have been the victims of a major and ongoing injustice, it's a pretty factual statement. You accept that and move on. That's how healing works.
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Don't think you really have a clue how it works.
 
Mockney said:
That website :lol:

I clicked on it and was immediately encouraged to by a Ben Shapiro book called "How to debate Leftists and Destroy them", only to finally get onto the site to see the headline story (just above a story titled "Why Stupid Leftists Succeed") called "A Brief History of Mental Illness" which includes such enlightening insights on mental health as...



I might start linking to the Marxist/Leninst Blogspot in every response to you from now on..It's about as fecking balanced.
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Raoul has posted the source already.

https://twitter.com/gabrielebarbati/statuses/493824468540596227
 
Mihajlovic said:
Don't think you really have a clue how it works.
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I do, we have a history here. The whole process of reconciliation has dominated this island for the past decades.

The idea that we as an internal community can ostracise Hamas for killing and condone Israel for the same thing is insane. You want balance, explain that to me. Why is it ok for one side to kill and not the other. Why have Israelis got their human rights protected but Palestinians don't? I and most of the world sees that as an injustice, yet that statement is one eyed to you. Why?

http://www.filmsforaction.org/artic...nor-prohamas-or-antiisrael-it-makes-me-human/
 
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thegregster said:
Its their fault for not letting the people of Palestine have a vote on the issue.

So can anybody come up with a good reason as to why the people of British mandate Palestine weren't allowed a vote on their future?

Why was it all done over their heads?
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Because the territory belong to the Ottomans who lost the war. The same argument that you use here invalidates the Jordanian border because they didn't get to vote on that either. In fact which borders do you think were voted into existence in 1918? I blame Pete for all this nonsense.
 
I am deeply saddened to the atrocities happening in Gaza right now and these Zionist scum are really heartless people. Adding to that people on here right now who are ProIsraeli it just sickens me to my stomach. People with bad intel and misinformed with the actual situation that is going on is beyond my head.
 
Raoul said:
This thread has already covered all of the Israel-Hamas angles, however the continued avoidance of recognizing the destructive nature of other conflicts is a legitimate sub-strand to this debate.
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No its not, its off topic. Classic way to deflect from Isreals monstrosity is to engage in a round of what about that place, in the Israel thread lets focus on there crimes shall we
 
Mockney said:
That website :lol:

I clicked on it and was immediately encouraged to by a Ben Shapiro book called "How to debate Leftists and Destroy them", only to finally get onto the site to see the headline story (just above a story titled "Why Stupid Leftists Succeed") called "A Brief History of Mental Illness" which includes such enlightening insights on mental health as...



I might start linking to the Marxist/Leninst Blogspot in every response to you from now on..It's about as fecking balanced.
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The website may well be dodgy, but are the reports of the Italian reporter any less credible from those coming out from Palestinian sources?

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/3...ion-misfired-rocket-killed-children-in-shati/

[URL='http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/30/italian-journalist-defies-hamas-out-of-gaza-far-from-hamas-retaliation-misfired-rocket-killed-children-in-shati/']Italian Journalist Defies Hamas: ‘Out of Gaza Far From Hamas Retaliation: Misfired Rocket Killed Children in Shati’
[/URL]

Italian journalist Gabriele Barbati said he was able to speak freely about witnessing a Hamas misfire that killed nine children at the Shati camp, confirming the Israel Defense Forces version of events, but only after leaving Gaza, “far from Hamas retaliation.”

On Twitter, Barbati, Jerusalem Correspondent for Radio Popolare Milano, and a former reporter for Sky Italia, in Beijing, said, “Out of #Gaza far from #Hamas retaliation: misfired rocket killed children yday [yesterday] in Shati. Witness: militants rushed and cleared debris.”

He said, “@IDFSpokesperson said truth in communique released yesterday about Shati camp massacre. It was not #Israel behind it.”

On Tuesday, the IDF released aerial photos showing how a rocket from Gaza targeting Israel hit the Shati camp, run by the UNRWA, and Al Shifa Hospital, which has become a de-facto Hamas headquarters, against international rules of war.

Barbati said he was unable to speak about the Al Shifa hit, but he was certain that it was a Hamas rocket that hit the Shati camp, and a witness saw militants rushing to clean the debris.

Blogger Elder of Ziyon, who praised Barbati for telling the truth in a war where many journalists have been intimidated by Hamas, noted that “When Hamas made the area off limits to reporters, it was cleaning the area from any debris that could show the truth.”


An IDF diagram showing how four rockets from Gaza hit the sea, Israel, Shati and Al Shifa Hospital. Photo: IDF.

On Tuesday, CAMERA, the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America, called out two correspondents from The Wall Street Journal for deleting photographs that would implicate Hamas in the war crime of using the Al Shifa hospital as a military headquarters. Other journalists, including a Gazan reporter for French media recounted to France’s Libération how Hamas had interrogated him in the same hospital, but later asked the newspaper to take down the story.

Elder of Ziyon said, “Every single report on TV from Gaza should have this disclaimer: ‘Our reporters have been threatened, implicitly and perhaps explicitly, by Hamas to only report one side of the story.Viewers must not trust anything they are saying.’”

“There is an assumption of fairness in journalism, a contract between the media and the viewers,” the influential blogger said. “This contract has been broken, as far as I can tell, by nearly every single reporter in Gaza in nearly every report, with a couple of rare exceptions.”
 
Mockney said:
Oh I'm not doubting the story. I'm just amused by the bonkers Fox News level nuttiness of the website.
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JohnDoe said:
Fox News is fair and balanced though.
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Mockney said:
You'd certainly think so if you read that website.
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Always stick to mainstream media for credible stories on Israel:

bbc180402.jpg


guardian170402.jpg


Following Operation Defensive Shield in 2002, the Guardian’s editorial commented in its April 17 edition that: “Israel’s actions in Jenin were every bit as repellent as Osama Bin Laden’s attack on New York on September 11.” No need for links to the Marxist/Leninist Blogspot, Mockney.
 
Wizard Keyaz said:
I am deeply saddened to the atrocities happening in Gaza right now and these Zionist scum are really heartless people. Adding to that people on here right now who are ProIsraeli it just sickens me to my stomach. People with bad intel and misinformed with the actual situation that is going on is beyond my head.
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I think at least the posters who actually live in Israel are pretty well informed about what's going on in their country.

What's a Zionist again?
 
So what's the end game here?

Both Hamas and Israel have burned a lot of political capital this month, so something has to give soon.
 
Another case for human shields HR?



EDIT: Sorry I haven't been following the thread closely.. Is it "it was hamas" excuse day?
 
IOF mentality (the source of the human mistakes):

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What's the difference between Israel and Hamas exactly?

Add to that the fact that Israeli leaders were chosen on who is more anti-Arab (Fact that can't be argued), and Hamas were chosen on who's more anti-Israel (while being occupied and oppressed).
 
Hehe...an Israeli soldier admitting murder on social networks. good job, Ihab.

I believe you didn't participate in the pro-Israeli demonstration Sunday night, when Christian Arabs distanced themselves from your Hamas-supporting mob.
 
holyland red said:
Hehe...an Israeli soldier admitting murder on social networks. good job, Ihab.

I believe you didn't participate in the pro-Israeli demonstration Sunday night, when Christian Arabs distanced themselves from your Hamas-supporting mob.
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Do you think I'm some kind of monster to participate in a pro-Israeli demonstration? Also don't spread lies, a very small minority of Christian Arabs might have been there, but keep trying to make this a religion war. Keep trying to cause a division between Arabs, it's sick and sleazy and immoral, which is well within the norms and boundaries for your nation, it might work though. Many people can bought off with financial promises, keep doing that too.

I support Palestinian's right to defend themselves, to resist their oppressor, I do not support Hamas.

On the soldier twitter thing, focus on the mentality. Killing civilians won't really bother them, and that's whats happening. (First soldier says in hebrew: "All the arabs will die today.")
 
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IhabX7 said:
Do you think I'm some kind of monster to participate in a pro-Israeli demonstration?

I support Palestinian's right to defend themselves, to resist their oppressor, I do not support Hamas.

On the soldier twitter thing, focus on the mentality. Killing civilians won't really bother them, and that's whats happening. (First soldier says in hebrew: "All the arabs will die today.")
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You do not have to convince me that plenty of Israelis are scumbags. I believe you can find scumbags anywhere you go, including idiots who would brag about hate crimes. Moreover, in Israel we have plenty of scumbags on both sides of the political spectrum, including some who think only monsters support our country.
 
holyland red said:
You do not have to convince me that plenty of Israelis are scumbags. I believe you can find scumbags anywhere you go, including idiots who would brag about hate crimes. Moreover, in Israel we have plenty of scumbags on both sides of the political spectrum, including some who think only monsters support our country.
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We're not occupying other people's land though do you agree? You are occupying our land. We've seen the horrors. Arabs who support Israel after everything that the Israelis have done to their families are egoistical in the sense that "I just want to live happily", with some sort of Stockholm syndrome. I have no respect for people who sell themselves, or have such a disregard to all the people massacred and exiled. No respect. I can understand people who still believe in co-existence and work hard for that cause alongside leftist Israelis. Those people are not pro-IDF. Those people I can respect the difference in opinion with.
 
IhabX7 said:
We're not occupying other people's land though do you agree? You are occupying our land. We've seen the horrors. Arabs who support Israel after everything that the Israelis have done to their families are egoistical in the sense that "I just want to live happily", with some sort of Stockholm syndrome. I have no respect for people who sell themselves, or have such a disregard to all the people massacred and exiled. No respect. I can understand people who still believe in co-existence and work hard for that cause alongside leftist Israelis. Those people are not pro-IDF. Those people I can respect the difference in opinion with.
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We're not occupying anyone's land. Israeli Christians begin to realise that if it wasn't for the Jewish state you were going to slaughter them, just as you are doing in every other country surrounding us.

You believe in co-existence with people who share your views, and that is why you refer to people who disagree with you as animals. Just like the scumbag soldiers you cite in your above post (assuming these are real twitts) and millions of other intolerant Arabs in neighbouring states.

BTW, more and more Israeli Christians do not identify themselves with Arabs at all. Stockholm.
 
In light of the apparent perceived injustice within Israel about why this is receiving much more attention than other atrocities in the wold, I thought the stats in this article (from independent Stanford/NYU research) were interesting.

"TBIJ reports that from June 2004 through mid-September 2012, available data indicate that drone strikes killed 2,562 - 3,325 people in Pakistan, of whom 474 - 881 were civilians, including 176 children. TBIJ reports that these strikes also injured an additional 1,228 - 1,362 individuals," according to the Stanford/NYU study.
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That's an awful lot of dead children and I think it's probably true that they're not creating the same level of outrage because the western media and all of our Facebook feeds aren't plastered with images of their corpses. There's still a few obvious differences, though. The ratio of civilian to armed combatant dead is a lot less onerous and the US have killed fewer children in 8 years than Israel has killed in less than 8 weeks.

Of course, the main issue here is that arguing the toss about which atrocity is the least morally wrong kind of misses the point. You should be able to debate the rights and wrong of any one conflict without needing to decide where it sits on some sort of war crime sliding scale. Anyone arguing that the global scrutiny applied to Israel's actions is unfair is at best misguided, at worst deliberately disingenuous.
 
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holyland red said:
We're not occupying anyone's land. Israeli Christians begin to realise that if it wasn't for the Jewish state you were going to slaughter them, just as you are doing in every other country surrounding us.

You believe in co-existence with people who share your views, and that is why you refer to people who disagree with you as animals. Just like the scumbag soldiers you cite in your above post (assuming these are real twitts) and millions of other intolerant Arabs in neighbouring states.

BTW, more and more Israeli Christians do not identify themselves with Arabs at all. Stockholm.
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They are Palestinian Christian Arabs in Israel. Stop saying Israeli Christians to give it legitimacy.

I already gave my reasons why I do not respect pro-Israeli Arabs. Don't go in circles.

You seem to think that I side with Arab countries or ISIS? Hell no. I just want justice (won't happen in my lifetime it seems). After that I'm fecking off from this shithole.
 
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Pogue Mahone said:
In light of the apparent perceived injustice within Israel about why this is receiving much more attention than other atrocities in the wold, I thought the stats in this article (from independent Stanford/NYU research) were interesting.



That's an awful lot of dead children and I think it's probably true that they're not creating the same level of outrage because the western media and all of our Facebook feeds aren't plastered with images of their corpses. There's still a few obvious differences, though. The ratio of civilian to armed combatant dead is a lot less onerous and the US have killed fewer children in 8 years than Israel has killed in less than 8 weeks.

Of course, the main issue here is that arguing the toss about which atrocity is the least morally wrong kind of misses the point. You should be able to debate the rights and wrong of any one conflict without needing to decide where it sits on some sort of war crime sliding scale. Anyone arguing that the global scrutiny applied to Israel's actions is unfair is at best misguided, at worst deliberately disingenuous.
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Wow...the number of "high-level" targets killed as a percentage of total casualties is extremely low -- about 2%. Interesting indeed. I also think that responding to a barrage of thousands of rockets is far more proportionate than sitting in the comfort of your US airbase and wiping out villages half way across the globe.

I would also suspect that a more distubring truth hides behind the term "available data". There is plenty of "available data" in Gaza, because there is footage coming out of there and because "available data" there is basically any figure "Palestinian sources" would blame Israel for. For all the bravery of journalists providing horror stories and images one wonders why there is no "available data" of Hamas losses. Just what the Palestinian ministry of interior ordered- all the casualties are civilians.
 
IhabX7 said:
They are Palestinian Christian Arabs in Israel. Stop saying Israeli Christians to give it legitimacy.

I already gave my reasons why I do not respect pro-Israeli Arabs. Don't go in circles.

You seem to think that I side with Arab countries or ISIS? Hell no. I just want justice (won't happen in my lifetime it seems). After that I'm fecking off from this shithole.
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http://tlv1.fm/news/so-much-to-say/...istians-take-streets-haifa-unusual-protest-2/


What you percieve as justice will make this place no different to any neighbouring country. For your own sake, feck off ASAP and wait for CNN updates on justice.
 
holyland red said:
http://tlv1.fm/news/so-much-to-say/...istians-take-streets-haifa-unusual-protest-2/


What you percieve as justice will make this place no different to any neighbouring country. For your own sake, feck off ASAP and wait for CNN updates on justice.
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If the region is so bad, why create an alien state in it?

You would love it if all Arabs fecked off.

Israel has a big role in what's happening in neighbouring countries. Who can know how it would have been without Israel. I bet not Utopia, but who knows.

It's so easy being an Israeli, clear conscience. No blame. It's all Hamas.

http://www.haaretz.co.il/opinions/.premium-1.2392399
 
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You didn't answer my question HR, explain the difference between Hamas and Israel in this offensive.
 
Kaos said:
So Al-Sissy and the inbreds in the Saudi royal family are indifferent? Quelle surprise. Those regimes are notoriously pro-US, all you have to tell them is jump and they'll ask how high. They're not representative of the Arab population in their respective nations or in the Middle East.
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One would think that's common knowledge.
 
IhabX7 said:
IOF mentality (the source of the human mistakes):

10580271_451116961697766_4635025959563461663_n.png



Untitled-27.png


What's the difference between Israel and Hamas exactly?

Add to that the fact that Israeli leaders were chosen on who is more anti-Arab (Fact that can't be argued), and Hamas were chosen on who's more anti-Israel (while being occupied and oppressed).
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these are the kinds of people that should be beheaded.
 
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