Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

holyland red said:
I'm afraid that is still saying what not to do.
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That's the point. I'm not telling you what should be done to resolve the issue, i'm just making the point that what's happening, as far as I can see, is disgusting and wrong and should be avoided at all costs. I couldn't care less about the political /religious point scoring. I just find it shocking that something like this can be accepted as normal even by a small minority.
 
holyland red said:
By contrast, throughout the Mandatory period, Arab immigration was unrestricted. In 1930, the Hope Simpson Commission, sent from London to investigate the 1929 Arab riots, said the British practice of ignoring the uncontrolled illegal Arab immigration from Egypt, Transjordan and Syria had the effect of displacing the prospective Jewish immigrants. 8

The British Governor of the Sinai from 1922–36 observed: “This illegal immigration was not only going on from the Sinai, but also from Transjordan and Syria, and it is very difficult to make a case out for the misery of the Arabs if at the same time their compatriots from adjoining states could not be kept from going in to share that misery.” 9

The Peel Commission reported in 1937 that the “shortfall of land is . . . due less to the amount of land acquired by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population.” 10


8 John Hope Simpson, Palestine: Report on Immigration, Land Settlement and Development, (London, 1930), p. 126.
9 C. S. Jarvis, “Palestine,” United Empire (London), Vol 28 (1937), p. 633.
10 Palestine Royal Commission Report, p. 242.
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Cheers - interesting although it does relate to the post WWI mandate period, not the longer period intimated by Van Rompuy. Anyway, as I suggested in my original post, this is all incidental. A family who has been there for 80 years is not going to surrender its home, whatever the ownership position 100, 200, 300 years ago. And, in any case, if Israel didn't exist, Arab royal families/dictators would have to invent it or at least another external enemy.
 
Keenst said:
That's the point. I'm not telling you what should be done to resolve the issue, i'm just making the point that what's happening, as far as I can see, is disgusting and wrong and should be avoided at all costs. I couldn't care less about the political /religious point scoring. I just find it shocking that something like this can be accepted as normal even by a small minority.
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Should be avoided as long as there is a viable alternative because giving up the fight is not an option. it's not like you sending your army to fight in Iraq or Afghanistan. We can't afford losing this war. We also can't allow the tactic of using human shields and civilian infrastructure compromise our ability to respond. We are being watched from Lebanon too.
 
Gaza conflict: 'Israeli market strike kills 17
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28571785

This reminds me of bombings of Sarajevo markets during the siege...



Explanation: Hamas had rockets hidden under the vegeteble and fruit stands or they heard firing from that direction. Cease fire? Only where they think it should be and how long it should last.

IDF tells civilians to flee, they flee to UN school, then IDF bombs that school. No escape.
 
holyland red said:
Should be avoided as long as there is a viable alternative because giving up the fight is not an option. it's not like you sending your army to fight in Iraq or Afghanistan. We can't afford losing this war. We also can't allow the tactic of using human shields and civilian infrastructure compromise our ability to respond. We are being watched from Lebanon too.
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Well if you think it's ok I can't argue with you. I just don't think killing women and children on a massive scale is worth anything to be honest, you clearly are of a different opinion and so be it.
 
Might be a silly question - But why do Hamas keep firing rockets into Israel knowing that they have the Iron Dome to protect them and all that happens is Israel retaliate?

Surely if they went to the UN and were serious about having peace, they could negotiate a lot of foreign investment and international aid in order to bring lots of jobs( If it was peaceful it could turn into a large tourist destination), feed the people and probably be recognised as a country in it's own right. At the end of the day it's not like they're going to get the land they did or didn't loose off Israel anyway as they can't win a war against them.

It's not like Israel would really loose anything if this happened anyway, the conflict has to be costing them masses of amounts, and if the deal was just for investment from other countries and Israel wouldn't loose anymore land. then why shouldn't it be acceptable to them especially if there was international pressure put on them to accept.
 
mikey_d said:
Surely if they went to the UN and were serious about having peace, they could negotiate a lot of foreign investment and international aid in order to bring lots of jobs( If it was peaceful it could turn into a large tourist destination), feed the people and probably be recognised as a country in it's own right. At the end of the day it's not like they're going to get the land they did or didn't loose off Israel anyway as they can't win a war against them.
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What Hamas is holding out for in a ceasefire negotiation is an end the Israeli blockade, which has crippled the already limited economy.
 
Shamwow said:
This is what I mean when I say Israel needs to make compromises. It is going to have to take a few risks and take the dominant role in peace (as it has done in war).
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mikey_d said:
Might be a silly question - But why do Hamas keep firing rockets into Israel knowing that they have the Iron Dome to protect them and all that happens is Israel retaliate?

Surely if they went to the UN and were serious about having peace, they could negotiate a lot of foreign investment and international aid in order to bring lots of jobs( If it was peaceful it could turn into a large tourist destination), feed the people and probably be recognised as a country in it's own right. At the end of the day it's not like they're going to get the land they did or didn't loose off Israel anyway as they can't win a war against them.

It's not like Israel would really loose anything if this happened anyway, the conflict has to be costing them masses of amounts, and if the deal was just for investment from other countries and Israel wouldn't loose anymore land. then why shouldn't it be acceptable to them especially if there was international pressure put on them to accept.
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Best post so far.
 
Rams said:
You said that the UN was allowing Hamas to store rockets in UNRWA schools. I will quote your post if you like.
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Are you suggesting UNRWA personnel did not have a clue? You are aware that UN workers are mostly Palestinians? Even if we assume they do not willfully collaborate with Hamas, you are aware that they could easily be intimidated into turning a blind eye?
 
NewDawnFades said:
What Hamas is holding out for in a ceasefire negotiation is an end the Israeli blockade, which has crippled the already limited economy.
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It's the Egyptian blockade that crippled Hamas more than anything else. That, and putting their money on the wrong horse in Syria.
 
PedroMendez said:
Sayed Kashua - why I have to leave Isreal
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Pretty sad. One of the most moderate among Israeli/Palestinian Arabs and this is how he sums up the conflict:

"Twenty-five years of writing in Hebrew, and nothing has changed. Twenty-five years clutching at the hope, believing it is not possible that people can be so blind. Twenty-five years during which I had few reasons to be optimistic but continued to believe that one day this place in which both Jews and Arabs live together would be the one story where the story of the other is not denied. That one day the Israelis would stop denying the Nakba, the Occupation, and the suffering of the Palestinian people. That one day the Palestinians would be willing to forgive and together we would build a place that was worth living in."


All the blame is on Israel, all the suffering is Arab. fecking hell.
 
Honestly... the 'truthrevolt'?!?! What kind of idiotic propaganda is this? You would need far less than half a brain to believe the tripe printed on that site. Why don't you quote an objective reputable source for once????
 
holyland red said:
All the blame is on Israel, all the suffering is Arab. fecking hell.
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His point is to tell the "Palestinian story" as the "Israeli story" is probably well covered within Israel. Unfortunately, your reply confirms his judgement. There is no interest to hear the other side's story and there is no interest to admit mistakes, there is no interest to acknowledge that there are other people who have gone through their own suffering. It's so much easier to get defensive, complain that he focused on one side of the story and to remain oblivious to what is happening to other people.
 
mikey_d said:
Might be a silly question - But why do Hamas keep firing rockets into Israel knowing that they have the Iron Dome to protect them and all that happens is Israel retaliate?

Surely if they went to the UN and were serious about having peace, they could negotiate a lot of foreign investment and international aid in order to bring lots of jobs( If it was peaceful it could turn into a large tourist destination), feed the people and probably be recognised as a country in it's own right. At the end of the day it's not like they're going to get the land they did or didn't loose off Israel anyway as they can't win a war against them.

It's not like Israel would really loose anything if this happened anyway, the conflict has to be costing them masses of amounts, and if the deal was just for investment from other countries and Israel wouldn't loose anymore land. then why shouldn't it be acceptable to them especially if there was international pressure put on them to accept.
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Good post. I think the answer can be broken into 4 parts,

1) I think fundamentally war changes people. If you see loved one being shot and blown apart every day the anger and hatred consumes you that rational thought no longer exists. It becomes revenge first and that kind of attitude makes any 'hands off' approach very difficult.
2) Israel has been the thorn in arab side and most arab countries fuel the conflict by financial aid to the Hamas. In 2010 Hamas had nearly a $500mn budget most of it from 'foreign aid'. Imo, a cause is that other hardliners behind the scenes are interested in keeping this conflict alive.
3) Conflict in it's own agenda against Jews vs Israel. The statemetns coming from it's leaders vary to accepting a stalemate to outright blaming of Jews and non-acceptance of Israel as a state. There cannot be peace unless they are open to accepting Israel as a seperate state (and then moving on to a mutual ceasefire)
4) Hardline Jihadi concepts of matryrdom - When the war becomes 'holy', there is not midlle ground.

Did not mean to cause offence to anyone!
 
I think everybody is in agreement that Hamas is a wicked organisation that everybody would better off without. The point is here whether the loss of life and destruction caused by the Israeli forces in Gaza is in anyway proportionate and justified. Israel thinks it is, the rest of the World does not.
 
Rams said:
I'm sorry, but haven't Israel's own security forces already admitted it was a Israeli bomb and the incident is under investigation?! At least that's what I saw an Israeli Government minister tell a reporter on the BBC's Newsnight last night.
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There seem to have been multiple incidents over the past few days, so its a bit murky as to which is which. There was one where the Israelis said they were investigating, and that it could've been them or Hamas. Not sure if that's this one or a previous one though.
 
I'm now watching the BBC 10o'clock news. The attack of the school is the headline story. It's an absolute disgrace what Israel has done. Israel should be punished for their actions. The Generals who ordered this attack should be tried for war crimes.
 
JuveGER said:
His point is to tell the "Palestinian story" as the "Israeli story" is probably well covered within Israel. Unfortunately, your reply confirms his judgement. There is no interest to hear the other side's story and there is no interest to admit mistakes, there is no interest to acknowledge that there are other people who have gone through their own suffering. It's so much easier to get defensive, complain that he focused on one side of the story and to remain oblivious to what is happening to other people.
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If he's given up because the Jews are not willing to accept responsibility for the mistakes of the Palestinian leadership in 1947 then so be it. Sad to see him go really. We may differ in our point of view, but he would certainly be an asset to this place had he stayed.
 
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Rams said:
I think everybody is in agreement that Hamas is a wicked organisation that everybody would better off without. The point is here whether the loss of life and destruction caused by the Israeli forces in Gaza is in anyway proportionate and justified. Israel thinks it is, the rest of the World does not.
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Being under rocket fire for a month, whatever measures Israel has taken are more proportionate than those taken by the unprovoked "rest of the world" in Iraq and Afghanistan.
 
Well lets make one thing very clear; the International Community is unified in condemning Israel. That's what the rest of the World thinks.
 
Rams said:
Well lets make one thing very clear; the International Community is unified in condemning Israel. That's what the rest of the World thinks.
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Where's your passion for all the Syrians that have been murdered over the past couple of years ?
 
holyland red said:
Being under rocket fire for a month, whatever measures Israel has taken are more proportionate than those taken by the unprovoked "rest of the world" in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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How many Israeli civilians were killed by rocket fire the past month and how many Palestinian civilians have been killed in this latest offensive? What is the standard life in Israel compared to Gaza? And what has Iraq or Afganistan go to do with the Israeli offensive in Gaza?
 
Raoul said:
Where's your passion for all the Syrians that have been murdered over the past couple of years ?
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What are you saying; I'm not compassionate? However, we don't currently seem to have a debate on the RedCafe on, for example, the Assad regime.
 
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