You mean like tomb robbers.
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
- Thread starter Raoul
- Start date
You mean like tomb robbers.
Hamas chief Khaled Mashaal says 450 prisoners will be released within a week, and the rest of 1,027 prisoners two months later in the swap deal that secures the release of Israeli soldier in captivity since 2006.
Mashaal described Tuesday the prison exchange as "national achievement" for the Palestinians.
He said more than 300 Palestinians sentenced to life sentences will be freed along with all 27 Palestinian women in Israeli prisons. It is not clear at what stage the Israeli Sgt. Gilad Schalit will be released.
Speaking in a televised address from Damascus, Syria, Mashaal said he was pained not to be able to release all the remaining prisoners.
Hamas Chief:1,027 Prisoners to Be Freed in Swap - ABC News
Mashaal described Tuesday the prison exchange as "national achievement" for the Palestinians.
He said more than 300 Palestinians sentenced to life sentences will be freed along with all 27 Palestinian women in Israeli prisons. It is not clear at what stage the Israeli Sgt. Gilad Schalit will be released.
Speaking in a televised address from Damascus, Syria, Mashaal said he was pained not to be able to release all the remaining prisoners.
Hamas Chief:1,027 Prisoners to Be Freed in Swap - ABC News
Good news for all concerned.
Some of the released prisoners are convicted murderers. The victim's families will be pissed off I can imagine.
Gilad Shalit's family on the other hand must be rejoicing.
....and lots of them won't be. Israeli govt and society have weighed up the options, and decided this is a deal worth making...so there we are.
I know. I wouldn't know how to decide myself, it's a really tough decision.
The deal is another one in a long list of terrible exchange deals Israel agreed to carry out. There is no doubt the Shalit family deserve to be united with Gilad after he has been held for 5 years without access to any outside contact (IRC? HRW? Amnesty Int? RC Bob?).
On the flip side, what's the message to the terror victims' families here, that Shalit's live is more valuable than their loved ones'? There are many of those families who have supported the suggested deal for a while, arguing that they have already lost their world, and they don't want the Shalits to follow suit. Still, there are other argument against a deal:
1. Will terrorism be given a boost with so many released Palestinian heroes, masterminds of restaurant and bus explosions, back on the streets? Hundreds of Israelis have been murdered by Palestinians released in previous deals.
2. Would it be easier to recruit murderers if those know they'll serve time until the next soldier snatching only?
3. Why would Israeli soldiers risk their life in operations aimed at arresting terrorists, when they know that their own lives are at risk?
There was another point on the list, which was the reluctance to boost Hamas popularity in the WB at the expense of Abbas. However, imo this one isn't valid anymore after it was made clear that the two share the same strategy despite tactical differences.
On the flip side, what's the message to the terror victims' families here, that Shalit's live is more valuable than their loved ones'? There are many of those families who have supported the suggested deal for a while, arguing that they have already lost their world, and they don't want the Shalits to follow suit. Still, there are other argument against a deal:
1. Will terrorism be given a boost with so many released Palestinian heroes, masterminds of restaurant and bus explosions, back on the streets? Hundreds of Israelis have been murdered by Palestinians released in previous deals.
2. Would it be easier to recruit murderers if those know they'll serve time until the next soldier snatching only?
3. Why would Israeli soldiers risk their life in operations aimed at arresting terrorists, when they know that their own lives are at risk?
There was another point on the list, which was the reluctance to boost Hamas popularity in the WB at the expense of Abbas. However, imo this one isn't valid anymore after it was made clear that the two share the same strategy despite tactical differences.
I don't think it's that tough a decision...it comes down to how much is a life worth? Get away from the rhetoric...negotiating with hostage takers/terrorists...encourage others to do the same...blah blah blah.
The fact remains, not negotiating would have meant signing his death sentence. We can't bring back the dead, but we can not add to the count.
Obviously in the movies you've have Gilad saying...Don't negotiate, I wish to die, I am ok with martyrdom etc etc...
The fact remains, not negotiating would have meant signing his death sentence. We can't bring back the dead, but we can not add to the count.
Obviously in the movies you've have Gilad saying...Don't negotiate, I wish to die, I am ok with martyrdom etc etc...
Did you read the bit about the number of victims at the hands of people released in previous deals before dismissing the "rhetoric"? Do they not join your "death count"? When I walk on the streets I see candidates for the next list left, right and center.
It's easier convincing the public with pictures of Gilad's face than it would be using pictures of the future victims when those are still alive.
I used the word 'rhetoric' - because that is what it is essentially. Israel a long time ago decided it would do almost whatever necessary to get Israelis back(dead or alive).
For example letting palestinian women prisoners go when a authentic video of Shalit was handed over to them, or the 200-300 released for the dead bodies of the other two victims of an ambush in 2006. Until and unless Israeli policy changes towards this sort of prisoner exchange..this debate will continue.
Like I said, this is a decision Israeli govt/society have made...I suppose it's not as easy a decision as I'm making it out to be. But you hit the nail on the head yourself...Gilad is still alive, the living almost always make a more compelling case than the dead in this sort of situation.
Needless to say that the 5-year long campaign for Shalit's release have enjoyed much more media coverage than opposite opinions. Obviously, it is next to impossible to arrange marches against his release.
I feel for Netanyahu mind.
It must be difficult to live with his brothers (Yoni) sacrifice in this horrible dilemma.
It is amazing that Israel are prepared to release over 1,000 prisoners for just 1 soldier, some of whom are undoubtedly dangerous.
What is the logic behind this? Free up prison space for a new influx? A hope that the released soldier will kill 1,000 terrorists when he goes back to active service?
Clearly there is a moral high ground to be gained, but it doesn't seem right that one Israeli life is worth 1,000 Palestinians. Obviously not their lives, but you get what I mean.
Can someone explain the logic behind this?
What is the logic behind this? Free up prison space for a new influx? A hope that the released soldier will kill 1,000 terrorists when he goes back to active service?
Clearly there is a moral high ground to be gained, but it doesn't seem right that one Israeli life is worth 1,000 Palestinians. Obviously not their lives, but you get what I mean.
Can someone explain the logic behind this?
1000 Palestinians = 1 Israeli?
The principle that Israel does whatever it can to bring its soldiers back home, dead or alive. It was only recently when Israel released murderers to get the bodies of 2 soldiers from Hizballah.
It's not that such deals were not struck before, but there was an argument for not making the Shalit's saga end up like the Ron Arad story (who was caught alive by Shiia Lebanese, and "disappeared" since).
Its conveniently ignored that hundreds of these prisoners are not prisoners of war, but Palestinians who have merely been kidnapped - essentially fathers, mothers, sons, daughters etc who have suddenly 'disappeared' never to have been seen again. When they aren't prisoners of war they're kidnap victims.
A lot of these prisoners are militants and terrorists, but a sizeable proportion were civilians imprisoned by the IDF for no apparent reason. Thats kidnapping.
I applaud Israel for giving such respect to their soldiers. Just imagine the confidence IDF will get through this action of their government. Is it any wonder they have the best force in the world?
Aye, thats something the Arabs could learn from the Israelis. Swapping dead bodies for prisoners was something else, talk about respect and loyalty.
So..er..I was thinking about this the other day and I reckon I've solved it.
Single state solution. Basically a Federation, much like Canada. Equal rights and representation for Palestinians, who by default become Israeli citizens who can work, pay taxes, vote and run in elections. A constitutional clause whereby the state cannot be broken up.
Why it is a win? Because by accepting Palestinians as citizens of Israel, none of her enemies can any longer deny her right to exist.
Single state solution. Basically a Federation, much like Canada. Equal rights and representation for Palestinians, who by default become Israeli citizens who can work, pay taxes, vote and run in elections. A constitutional clause whereby the state cannot be broken up.
Why it is a win? Because by accepting Palestinians as citizens of Israel, none of her enemies can any longer deny her right to exist.
Fantastic! The Arab state of Israel is never going to be attacked by Arabs.
Well they couldn't trot out that stupid line anymore at least. Don't you find that ridiculous? Of course, some states might still chose to consider war against Israel but really, what state in their right mind would sign up to have their arses handed to them by the IDF?
Get your tuxedo ready for next year in Oslo, doc.
No. It's no surprise at all
Arab rally: Redeem al-Aqsa with blood - Israel News, Ynetnews
Some 30,000 Arab Israelis attend al-Aqsa rally in Friday, community leader lauds Hamas over Shalit prisoner swap. 'Shalit deal is historic revolution that comprises entire Palestinian people,' he says
Hassan Shaalan Published: 10.14.11, 21:13 / Israel News
Some 30,000 Arab Israelis took part Friday in a rally titled "Al-Aqsa Mosque in Danger," vowing to "redeem" the holy Muslim site in Jerusalem "with blood."
The event was organized by the northern branch of the Islamic Movement in the northern Israel town of Umm al-Fahem. Participants chanted "Allahu Akbar" and "we shall redeem you with blood and spirit, oh al-Aqsa.'"
The rally included a show depicting ultra-Orthodox Jews destroying Temple Mount.
The head of the Supreme Arab Monitoring Committee, Muhammad Zidan, said that "harming the holy sites is a red line for us and would lead to difficult steps."
"Most of the Arab public would hit the streets to defend them," he said.
Protestors held up Palestinian and Turkish flags during the event.
'Message to State of Israel '
Referring to the Shalit prisoner swap, the Islamic Movement's deputy chief, Sheikh Kamel Khatib, said: "The Shalit deal is a historic revolution that comprises the entire Palestinian people – from Jerusalem and from Gaza."
"This is the first time, and we thank the organization that stood behind the deal – it doesn’t matter what it is and what's its name," he said, referring to Hamas. "This deal proved our powerful position."
During the rally, thousands of participants called for the release of more Arab Israelis in the framework of the Shalit deal.
Following Hamas' insistence, six Arab Israeli men and two Arab Israeli women will be released from prison as part of the Shalit swap. Their families have not yet been officially informed of their release, but celebrations are underway in their communities.
Such festivities were held at the home of Muhammad Jabarin from Umm al-Fahem, who was convicted of murdering a Palestinian collaborator with Israel. Revelers fired firecrackers and handed out sweets to celebrate his imminent release.
The prisoner's mother said: "We'd like to thank everyone who dealt with the release of prisoners. This is a message to the State of Israel that we are stronger, and that we shall stand up to the racism and false accusations."
Democracy is when citizens of a state organise a rally and send a message to their own state proclaiming that not the state they live in (which btw did not crush the rally by tanks) but a neighbouring, terror organisation is standing up for their interests by achieving the release of murderers of citizens of the very state they live in.
The very same group of citizens also speaks out against racism by directly or indirectly voicing their support for a racist terror organisation. Top marks for irony and delusion.
The very same group of citizens also speaks out against racism by directly or indirectly voicing their support for a racist terror organisation. Top marks for irony and delusion.
Someof the released murderers are "Israeli" Arabs themselves. Yes, Israeli citizens who participated in the murder of other Israeli citizens because they were Jewish.
On another note, the Israeli government refused the release of "Israeli Arabs" in the deal, but eventually caved in there too. How long the Jewish majority is going to tolerate a minority that defies the national ethos of the majority here, and identifies with its enemies who deny its right to exist here I don't know. There is little doubt that the Jews and Arabs are on a collision course here.
There are rumors here that the deal may have been carried out in order to clear the table ahead of other, bigger regional events which are about to occur. An alternative explanation is that Israel was in a hurry to strike a deal as long as Egypt could be in the picture, with the political instability there putting in doubt its role in the process in the near future.
On another note, the Israeli government refused the release of "Israeli Arabs" in the deal, but eventually caved in there too. How long the Jewish majority is going to tolerate a minority that defies the national ethos of the majority here, and identifies with its enemies who deny its right to exist here I don't know. There is little doubt that the Jews and Arabs are on a collision course here.
There are rumors here that the deal may have been carried out in order to clear the table ahead of other, bigger regional events which are about to occur. An alternative explanation is that Israel was in a hurry to strike a deal as long as Egypt could be in the picture, with the political instability there putting in doubt its role in the process in the near future.
Tough last few days ahead of the inevitable swap deal:
Brother of Ramallah lynch victim: Barak lied to me - Israel News, Ynetnews
Bereaved families: State dancing in our blood - Israel News, Ynetnews
Shalits to High Court: Don't change deal - Israel News, Ynetnews
Brother of Ramallah lynch victim: Barak lied to me - Israel News, Ynetnews
Bereaved families: State dancing in our blood - Israel News, Ynetnews
Shalits to High Court: Don't change deal - Israel News, Ynetnews
not long now...
Shalit is already in Egypt. It's a done deal now.
I see the anti-exchange pov has gotten a lot more press in the last 72 hours. CNN/Al Jazeera.
All saying they feel for Shalit and his family, and are obviously happy he is alive and coming back safe to his folks, but definite anger at some of the prisoners being exchanged. Some calling Bibi a traitor and so on...
All saying they feel for Shalit and his family, and are obviously happy he is alive and coming back safe to his folks, but definite anger at some of the prisoners being exchanged. Some calling Bibi a traitor and so on...
You have to distinguish betwen the majority of those opposing the deal and those who call Bibi traitor or any other name for that matter. We have extremists who point fingers at "traitors" all the time, and occasionally call our soldiers Nazis when those carry out orders which they don't like (demolishing illegal WB posts etc.)
There are strong arguments against this deal, and perhaps the "sudden change" you're talking about reflects the role of the media in this Shalit festival. For over 5 years the media has filled a role in driving his image into every living room to the extent that many Israelis actually felt like it was their own son in captivity. The nay sayers didn't get a fraction of screen time to present their arguments. The terror victims' families didn't get the same exposure. Needless to say that the victims resulting from the deal, who are still alive right now, don't get air time either.
What we are seeing now is a done deal, and when Shalit's blood can't sell ads we'll hear more and more about the price. The same media that got him out will sensationalize the next terror attacks masterminded by the released murderers. I'd hate to be in Shalit's family's position when this happens.
There are strong arguments against this deal, and perhaps the "sudden change" you're talking about reflects the role of the media in this Shalit festival. For over 5 years the media has filled a role in driving his image into every living room to the extent that many Israelis actually felt like it was their own son in captivity. The nay sayers didn't get a fraction of screen time to present their arguments. The terror victims' families didn't get the same exposure. Needless to say that the victims resulting from the deal, who are still alive right now, don't get air time either.
What we are seeing now is a done deal, and when Shalit's blood can't sell ads we'll hear more and more about the price. The same media that got him out will sensationalize the next terror attacks masterminded by the released murderers. I'd hate to be in Shalit's family's position when this happens.
Good point - Definitely wouldn't want to be facing the heat they'll face when this happens.
Mind you, I still have this feeling Israel will quietly(or maybe not so quietly) launch a raid on Gaza sometime in the near future, and a lot of the more notorious figures will be taken out.
Looks pretty good physically...who knows where he is mentally.
Past experience suggests that those who do not renew their terrorist activity will be spared.
Is anything known about the exchange number, 1000 for 1, how was that negotiated? Surely the Shalits wanted their government to do something about it but how much was this whole matter really in their hands?
Looks like a good exchange for the Palestinians - their gdp per capita is about $400 which is about 42 times less than Israels circa $17k. 