Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

But you see, most of the people being called Palestinian today don't come from the historical geographic location of Palestine. They come from Jordan, Egypt, Syria and so on. They have had the label "Palestinian" stuck to them for political reasons. There was a time when rich, Arab Muslims held Israel and could've created the Palestinian state everybody talks about but they didn't. They rejected peace.

The truth is, there are so many myths surrounding Palestine and the multitude of ethnic Arabs labelled "Palestinian" today that history is being revised. Palestine simply never was what people claim about it.

Again, semantics. As per my previous post "there are at least some Palestinians currently living in Israel who have as much historical right to call that part of the world their home as any Israeli"

The fact that all Palestinians are treated as though they have no right to live there is one of the more important moral wrongs over the last few decades. That and the fact that this division between the haves and have nots is based almost entirely upon their religion.
 
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Regardless of whether the term Palestinian is a retrospective one or not, they've been raising families and livelihoods in that land for generations. Is it right for a settler from Eastern Europe for example to be able to displace a Palestinian because of their religion?

As I mentioned before, if mainland Europe had not turned Jewish refugees away after the second world war, perhaps there would have been an argument for saying the Jews should not return to their homeland. Perhaps. The simple fact is, prior to 1948 there were hundreds of thousands of Jews, Christians and Muslims living in what was previously known as the geographical location of Palestine.

By the same token ,you can't give land to a people that is already there.The state of Israel did not negate the creation of a Palestinian state, which is what the original two-state solution was all about. The Jewish people accepted the idea of a Palestinian state from the outset and concentrated on the rebuilding of Israel. It was the Palestinians who attacked the Israelis and who have been the aggressors throughout history. Nobody thought a bunch of holocaust survivors, who weren't very well provisioned for by the rest of the world, could win that war because the Arabs had the numbers and the military firepower, but Israel did win when by all odds they should've been driven back into the sea.

You see, if there's an argument land was somehow denied to "Palestinians" there's an argument that the two-state solution denied the Jews who'd always inhabited it, land. But the logic is never applied this way because of widespread bias.
 
I suppose we should give Britain back to the Anglo-Saxons as well.

That is a ridiculous comparison - the idea of a Jewish homeland in Palestine at the time of the Balfour declaration was based on the realities of 2,000 years ago. The equivalent would be giving England back to the Welsh....

In any case, the question of who was there first is irrelevant now in 2014. We are where we are and there will be no return to 1948 and, in light of the state and attitudes of the surrounding countries, most likely no return to 1967 either. Until there is wider peace in the region, which is not going to happen any time soon as the fake borders of Sykes-Picot unravel amid a civil war within Islam, which has led to unstable regimes continuing to cynically use the fate of the Palestinians as a lightening rod for their population's anger, I don't honestly know what solution you can come up with that Israel could sign up to without remaining in permanent mobilization. Also (depressingly), it's worth remembering that many of Europe's persistent conflicts only ended with deportations and the violent creation of uni-ethnic states. Which is a long-winded way of saying there is no obvious way to resolve this issue.
 
But you see, most of the people being called Palestinian today don't come from the historical geographic location of Palestine. They come from Jordan, Egypt, Syria and so on. They have had the label "Palestinian" stuck to them for political reasons. There was a time when rich, Arab Muslims held Israel and could've created the Palestinian state everybody talks about but they didn't. They rejected peace.

The truth is, there are so many myths surrounding Palestine and the multitude of ethnic Arabs labelled "Palestinian" today that history is being revised. Palestine simply never was what people claim about it.

This is the most bullishit post I've ever seen on this forum.
 
As I mentioned before, if mainland Europe had not turned Jewish refugees away after the second world war, perhaps there would have been an argument for saying the Jews should not return to their homeland. Perhaps. The simple fact is, prior to 1948 there were hundreds of thousands of Jews, Christians and Muslims living in what was previously known as the geographical location of Palestine.

By the same token ,you can't give land to a people that is already there.The state of Israel did not negate the creation of a Palestinian state, which is what the original two-state solution was all about. The Jewish people accepted the idea of a Palestinian state from the outset and concentrated on the rebuilding of Israel. It was the Palestinians who attacked the Israelis and who have been the aggressors throughout history. Nobody thought a bunch of holocaust survivors, who weren't very well provisioned for by the rest of the world, could win that war because the Arabs had the numbers and the military firepower, but Israel did win when by all odds they should've been driven back into the sea.

You see, if there's an argument land was somehow denied to "Palestinians" there's an argument that the two-state solution denied the Jews who'd always inhabited it, land. But the logic is never applied this way because of widespread bias.

As a staging post agreement for total control of the region. They wanted the whole thing. They still do.
 
As I mentioned before, if mainland Europe had not turned Jewish refugees away after the second world war, perhaps there would have been an argument for saying the Jews should not return to their homeland. Perhaps. The simple fact is, prior to 1948 there were hundreds of thousands of Jews, Christians and Muslims living in what was previously known as the geographical location of Palestine.

By the same token ,you can't give land to a people that is already there.The state of Israel did not negate the creation of a Palestinian state, which is what the original two-state solution was all about. The Jewish people accepted the idea of a Palestinian state from the outset and concentrated on the rebuilding of Israel. It was the Palestinians who attacked the Israelis and who have been the aggressors throughout history. Nobody thought a bunch of holocaust survivors, who weren't very well provisioned for by the rest of the world, could win that war because the Arabs had the numbers and the military firepower, but Israel did win when by all odds they should've been driven back into the sea.

You see, if there's an argument land was somehow denied to "Palestinians" there's an argument that the two-state solution denied the Jews who'd always inhabited it, land. But the logic is never applied this way because of widespread bias.

The initial partition plan would have led to thousands of Palestinians losing their homes, its hardly a surprise they didn't accept it. Its not the Palestinians' fault that Europe had turned away Jewish refugees after turning a blind eye to Hitler's atrocities.
 
The initial partition plan would have led to thousands of Palestinians losing their homes, its hardly a surprise they didn't accept it. Its not the Palestinians' fault that Europe had turned away Jewish refugees after turning a blind eye to Hitler's atrocities.

But it's the fault of the Jews right? Those greedy Jews desiring Palestine for themselves.

Holocaust denial has always been incredibly popular in "Palestine" too.
 
But it's the fault of the Jews right? Those greedy Jews desiring Palestine for themselves.

Holocaust denial has always been incredibly popular in "Palestine" too.

Its their fault for not letting the people of Palestine have a vote on the issue.

So can anybody come up with a good reason as to why the people of British mandate Palestine weren't allowed a vote on their future?

Why was it all done over their heads?
 
Its their fault for not letting the people of Palestine have a vote on the issue.

So can anybody come up with a good reason as to why the people of British mandate Palestine weren't allowed a vote on their future?

Why was it all done over their heads?

Fairly standard imperialism, really.
 
But it's the fault of the Jews right? Those greedy Jews desiring Palestine for themselves.

Holocaust denial has always been incredibly popular in "Palestine" too.

Why do you keep throwing up straw men when it's blatantly obvious that the people you're debating with don't believe in anything of the sort?

It's that sort of baseless accusatory defensiveness which plagues the Israeli justification for what's happening and makes it very hard to feel any sympathy.
 
This is the most bullishit post I've ever seen on this forum.

Agreed, it is stunningly ignorant. He does understand the concept of refugees or children of refugees? Basically every "Jordanian" I have ever met has been Palestinian. I love the reference to "historical" borders while referring to the modern arbitrary borders of Syria and "we need another throne for Faisal's family" (aka Jordan).
 
Why does the Holocaust even need to be used in this discussion?
 
Why do you keep throwing up straw men when it's blatantly obvious that the people you're debating with don't believe in anything of the sort?

It's that sort of baseless accusatory defensiveness which plagues the Israeli justification for what's happening and makes it very hard to feel any sympathy.

They aren't straw men; these are the realities and people categorically are blaming the Jews for what happened. The Jews aren't even being recognised as Palestinian yet, even though I have explained Palestine was not ethnically Arab after the first world war and prior to 1948. Palestine was a mixture of Jews, Christians and Muslims. What were the Jews who've always been there if they weren't Palestinian? They actually have their ancestry in the geographical location of Palestine, as it was from the time of the Jewish revolt onwards

Why is it always the fault of the Israelis when the "Palestinians" have always been the ones to reject peace among themselves and with the Israelis? I really want to know.
 
Its their fault for not letting the people of Palestine have a vote on the issue.

So can anybody come up with a good reason as to why the people of British mandate Palestine weren't allowed a vote on their future?

Why was it all done over their heads?

Since when has the British Empire give the indigenous people of a nation a vote on how they intend to partition it?

If they did we wouldn't have 30 million Kurds without a state for starters.
 
Agreed, it is stunningly ignorant. He does understand the concept of refugees or children of refugees? Basically every "Jordanian" I have ever met has been Palestinian. I love the reference to "historical" borders while referring to the modern arbitrary borders of Syria and "we need another throne for Faisal's family" (aka Jordan).

No, you are ignorant about what Palestine is and was.
 
They aren't straw men; these are the realities and people categorically are blaming the Jews for what happened. The Jews aren't even being recognised as Palestinian yet, even though I have explained Palestine was not ethnically Arab after the first world war and prior to 1948. Palestine was a mixture of Jews, Christians and Muslims. What were the Jews who've always been there if they weren't Palestinian? They actually have their ancestry in the geographical location of Palestine, as it was from the time of the Jewish revolt onwards

Why is it always the fault of the Israelis when the "Palestinians" have always been the ones to reject peace among themselves and with the Israelis? I really want to know.

You're clutching to semantics and fail to see why people would oppose a 'deal' which would force them to pack up and make way for mass immigration, as decided by European powers.
 
Since when has the British Empire give the indigenous people of a nation a vote on how they intend to partition it?

If they did we wouldn't have 30 million Kurds without a state for starters.

Exactly. Israel was established without any regard for the local people. The Jewish people were happy to ignore the rights of the locals and follow on with imperialism.
 
Exactly. Israel was established without any regard for the local people. The Jewish people were happy to ignore the rights of the locals.

The Jewish people have always been the locals. Get it into your skull. There has always been a substantial Jewish presence in the geographic location known as Palestine. Your revisionism simply won't wash.
 
They aren't straw men; these are the realities and people categorically are blaming the Jews for what happened. The Jews aren't even being recognised as Palestinian yet, even though I have explained Palestine was not ethnically Arab after the first world war and prior to 1948. Palestine was a mixture of Jews, Christians and Muslims. What were the Jews who've always been there if they weren't Palestinian? They actually have their ancestry in the geographical location of Palestine, as it was from the time of the Jewish revolt onwards

Why is it always the fault of the Israelis when the "Palestinians" have always been the ones to reject peace among themselves and with the Israelis? I really want to know.
The vast majority of the people there were Sunni Muslims. You're making it sound like some sort multicultural utopia.
 
Exactly. Israel was established without any regard for the local people. The Jewish people were happy to ignore the rights of the locals and follow on with imperialism.

To be fair, who wouldn't be happy to see an area of land carved up and given to their otherwise "homelandless" group? Even without taking into consideration any beliefs regarding religious entitlement to that land.

You can't blame the Jews for taking the gift given to them by the Empire, that blame lies squarely with us for being so typically brazen with the concepts of borders and land.
 
The Jewish people have always been the locals. Get it into your skull. There has always been a substantial Jewish presence in the geographic location known as Palestine. Your revisionism simply won't wash.


There has always been a substantial Arab presence in the same place.

Even if you are correct it doesn't give anybody the right to kick out people who have lived for thousands of years in the region.
 
The Jewish people have always been the locals. Get it into your skull. There has always been a substantial Jewish presence in the geographic location known as Palestine. Your revisionism simply won't wash.

Substantial =/= majority. Palestine was just as much of a homeland for Jews as it was for Muslims and Christians, but as Pete says, fair self-determination would have not led to an Israeli state without Europeans forcing one so they wouldn't have to take in Jewish refugees themselves.
 
There has always been a substantial Arab presence in the same place.

Even if you are correct it doesn't give anybody the right to kick out people who have lived for thousands of years in the region.

That isn't what was proposed in a two-state solution. The real problem is that those who wanted a Palestinian state wanted all of it while the Jewish people were happy with a two-state solution.
 
No, you are ignorant about what Palestine is and was.

You have obviously never been to the Middle East (apart from Israel). I acknowledge there were some Jews in Palestine prior to Herzl/Balfour but the majority have emigrated in the last 100 years. According to you, however, a claim based on ancestors in Roman times counts, but if your parents/grandparents were driven out since 1948, you have no right and are Jordanian, Egyptian etc?
 
That isn't what was proposed in a two-state solution. The real problem is that those who wanted a Palestinian state wanted all of it while the Jewish people were happy with a two-state solution.
They didn't want to lose their homes, land and the lives they'd built for themselves. If that's not the most understandable motive in all of this I don't know what is.
 
They aren't straw men; these are the realities and people categorically are blaming the Jews for what happened. The Jews aren't even being recognised as Palestinian yet, even though I have explained Palestine was not ethnically Arab after the first world war and prior to 1948. Palestine was a mixture of Jews, Christians and Muslims. What were the Jews who've always been there if they weren't Palestinian? They actually have their ancestry in the geographical location of Palestine, as it was from the time of the Jewish revolt onwards

Why is it always the fault of the Israelis when the "Palestinians" have always been the ones to reject peace among themselves and with the Israelis? I really want to know.

None of those people post on this site. Go to Stormfront if you want to be righteously indignant.
 
The UN. Hmmm.

remember Entebbe?

UN Secretary General Kurt Walderhaim described the Entebbe raid as "a serious violation of the national sovereignty of a United Nations member state," (meaning Uganda). Dozens of Ugandan soldiers were killed in the raid. The Arab and Communist world condemned the operation, calling it an act of aggression.


Hehe....Kurt Waldheim...Was he UN secretary general when the UN infamously passed a resolution saying that Zionism is a form of racism? This Kurt Weldheim (second from left)?

Hans_Herbert_Macholz%2C_Kurt_Waldheim%2C_Escola_Roncagli%2C_and_Artur_Phleps_in_Podgorica%2C_Yugoslavia%2C_1943.jpg


Stop playing the holocaust card, Kurt.
 
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You have obviously never been to the Middle East (apart from Israel). I acknowledge there were some Jews in Palestine prior to Herzl/Balfour but the majority have emigrated in the last 100 years. According to you, however, a claim based on ancestors in Roman times counts, but if your parents/grandparents were driven out since 1948, you have no right and are Jordanian, Egyptian etc?

No, what I am saying is that Arabic immigration into the area came directly as a consequence of Jewish efforts to revitalise the land. Arab immigration was happening at the same time as Jewish immigration into the geographical location known as Palestine. This was in the 1880s, well before the first world war.

It was always Arab nationalists who would not allow the Jews to inhabit the land, threatening to "drive them into the sea".
 
If people weren't Biblically illiterate, I wouldn't need to explain the basic understanding in answer to off-topic questions. I am glad you're comfortable with calling me crazy. I am just answering honestly. I'll give you my view on any subject you like if you ask the question, and it will be 100% what I know and believe.

What I can't understand is people who ask a question so they can laugh at the answer. If you genuinely suspected somebody was crazy, why would you goad them into doing something crazy (by your definition) and then laugh at them? That's a very twisted thing to do.

What has the bible got to do with reality?
 
As if everyone doesn't agree putting Hamas out of business would be a good thing. Is it that hard to understand that it's the method and reckless, inhumane way Israel are going about it that's the problem?

As others have said it's going to win you nothing in the long run. You're only sewing the seeds of hate. The families of the dead will never forget what's happened and nor will their children for generations.


All nice and well, but you have to offer a workable alternative when you criticize the current response.
 
They aren't straw men; these are the realities and people categorically are blaming the Jews for what happened. The Jews aren't even being recognised as Palestinian yet, even though I have explained Palestine was not ethnically Arab after the first world war and prior to 1948. Palestine was a mixture of Jews, Christians and Muslims. What were the Jews who've always been there if they weren't Palestinian? They actually have their ancestry in the geographical location of Palestine, as it was from the time of the Jewish revolt onwards

Why is it always the fault of the Israelis when the "Palestinians" have always been the ones to reject peace among themselves and with the Israelis? I really want to know.

It's very convenient to make the words Jew and Israel interchangeable. They are not.
 
An admin changed my name as a joke. It has nothing to do with the composer but sure, go ahead and lecture me on decorum you unrepentant racist. How many pages it ago was it that you referred to Palestinian children as beasts?

I was referring to Hamas. And the Wagner thing was a joke. (though the Moses poster was also lined up for a repost).
Even a racist like me wouldn't assume you've chosen that name to talk about Manchester United.