Fatah haven't really controlled the agenda since Hamas came to power have they ?
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
- Thread starter Raoul
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Fatah haven't really controlled the agenda since Hamas came to power have they ?
Fatah have total control in the west bank. So answer my question. How much closer to palestinian state are they for following the West and Israels agenda?
They have total control of only one part of the Palestinian doman. Hard to guess how any progress is supposed to be made if Palestinians themselves are politically fractured into two different ideologies.
An artificial road block. There is nothing stopping Israel making paece with Fatah. Israel is not interested in peace, neither are you. You are quite the neo con in your views of the middle east
I actually don't have a dog in the fight. My only interest is in things that don't make sense, like Hamas' strategy of baiting the Israelis into killing its citizens with no end result to show for themselves. It seems counterproductive, and yet few are questioning it.
Israel goes in to stop hamas rockets every few years in the full knowledge it will never work. Why don't they try something different?
As for your dog theres not been a western intervention in the middle east you haven't defended to other people's death. Isreal is one your dogs
They probably will, but it won't involve negotiating with Hamas if that's what you're proposing. The more likely scenario is that their position will harden and involve deeper incursions into Gaza, again resulting in yet more deaths. A cynical strategy from Khaled Meshaal from his luxury villa in Doha.
You mean like arming extremists, sanctions, vetoing diplomatic initiatives from the Palestinians and invading nations on the back of phony allegations? We're in the same boat.
The Palestinians or Hamas? I heard a distinction, rather artificial I must admit, between the two.
They sure did. We're a basketball nation. Beach football will not be tolerated.
All of those things are easily explained, but since we're in the Israel-Palestine thread lets address the issues at hand.
Mozza does have a point. The West Bank and Gaza are practically 2 seperate entities (correct me if I'm wrong). Why hasn't the more peaceful West Bank been rewarded with more talks towards a solution?
How much value is there in attempting to negotiate two separate outcomes with two groups that represent the same people ?
They're in two geographical locations. Separated by all but identity. Pakistan and Bangladesh are the products of similar conditions.
Israel negotiating with the West Bank would put enormous pressure on Gaza to drop the bullshit and come to the table as well. At the very least, find the common ground that Fatah and Hamas share, and work with that. If any.
Would be nice, although it sounds improbable that two Palestinian factions who have spent the better part of 8 years murdering one another for control, will agree on a common policy that would also be acceptable to the Israelis.
Haven't Fatah refused to negotiate separately?
Oh. Had no clue. As you were then. So what are Fatah doing? Are they just laying down and taking it?
If so, I stand corrected then.
What kind of peace deal would that be with a faction which doesn't control anything other than a compound in Ramallah?
I don't understand why Israel isn't capable of critical thought.
If that's what Hamas want, why is Netanyahu obliging? It's only going create more recruits for his enemy and turn international sympathy towards the Palestinian cause. When Iron Dome is so effective, they can easily take the moral high ground. Instead they take the option of violence.
People use Israel's status as a democracy as some kind of argument in their favour. They're being far too reactive for that to be a factor in the debate.
The Palestinians
What kind of peace deal would that be with a faction which doesn't control anything other than a compound in Ramallah?
As ever Israel is putting artficial barriers to talks so they can build real barriers all over the West Bank
He's in exile, where is he supposed to go?
One that sets a precedent and keeps Hamas from being voted into office at the next Gaza election.
What kind of peace deal would that be with a faction which doesn't control anything other than a compound in Ramallah?
Palestinians believe that Israel doesn't want peace. Refusing to negotiate in such a situation proves it.
They did recently reconcile, the last time that happend Israel launched a war which caused them to fracture, guess whats happend again
A post from an anonymous student at the University in my city in Canada. Thought I'd share here, but I want to make it very clear that it has nothing to do with my opinions on the matter, nor can I confirm anything said.
Both sides seem to think they have no option in responding as they are. Hamas in order to lift the blockade, Israel in order to stop the rockets. Its all a self-licking ice cream cone.
Hamas is run by a bunch of extremist idiots. I'd expect more from a democracy like Israel's. I think it's only right that the latter are held to a higher standard of diplomacy.
But yes, I agree with your point, sadly.
I would think that is not what either want to achieve by their actions. Hamas know that their military cannot stop Israel. Israel must know that more strategic military action is needed to remove the bombers and the ill will.
Also, Hamas are a blacklisted terrorist organistion with no real international support . Israel have a seat on the UN council.
Interestingly, (and the likes of Holyland can correct me if I'm wrong) I get the impression the Israeli population are not in a conciliatory mood at the moment, which seems to be strengthening Netanyahu's hand at being more aggressive in his response. In a way, Hamas have been successful in bringing the issue to the forefront among outside observers, which certainly wasn't the case several weeks ago. Unfortunately, they don't have a viable end game here, as the rockets will run out, at which point the Israelis aren't likely to stop until they feel they've destroyed enough munitions and tunnels to permanently cripple this from happening again. It should come as no surprise that things have degenerated where they are, especially when you consider both sides are being driven by reactionary factions who are paranoid of the others intentions.
Not being glib, but is there a history of conciliatory moods in Israel regarding Palestine? I never thought the pressure applied to the IDF for peace was internal? Israel has little to fear from war unless it widens beyond the borders of Israel surely?
Poor Hamas, they would be such a wonderful organisation if only their bosses wouldn't be such idiots.
I don't think any populace subject to constant and intense rocket fire would be in a conciliatory mood really Raoul. You can't have a crap in the toilet in some places without a siren going off
If memory serves me right Ehud Barak did his very best to try and sort something out with Yasser Arafat when Clinton and Dubya Bush were Presidents. It all fell apart because of the Al Aqsa Mosque. Barak made high land concessions for Arafat as well where Arafat would have a large chunk of Jerusalem as well.
And Israelis have pretty good reason to believe the Arabs do not acknowledge the right of the Jewish people to live peacefully in their ME homeland. After all, It's Mahmoud Abbas and his Ramallah faction that openly declare this, pay huge salaries to terrorists and continue with anti-semitic incitement on official media outlets. Why would you expect Jews to believe the good peaceful intensions of the Palestinians?
Moreover, Israel's presence in the WB is the sole reason Hamas isn't in control of that patch of land too. Once we're out of there Hamas would take over just as quickly as it did in Gaza.
As for the next Gaza election...well...is there ever going to be one?
You have not even the faintest idea of what Israel is like. This entire post is daft, but the bolded part tops it hands down.
You would. But Israel's democracy is under constant rocket and tunnel threat, and even democracies seek life. Good example are the people living just next to the border fence with Gaza. Other than Sderot, I'd think most settlements there consists of populations which are traditionally Labour and left-wing leaning. Unfortunately, together with people in Sderot they have gotten used to live under constant rocket threat for 15 years. This time they face a different threat even they can't live with. The reality is that Hamas terrorists popu up from the tunnels built to reach their back yards. This is a major reason why there is unprecedent support across the entire Israeli population (Muslims apart) for whatever measures required to cripple Hamas. Some even consider a full GS takeover, despite its wider implications.
I have to say that Netanyahu acts as the responsible adult on this side, together with Ye'elon. The Israeli population mood fluctuates with reports of casualties, but the one thing that is in full concensus here is that this can not end in a situation where the next round is just a matter of time.
"The truth is, we are all living in Israel. It’s just that some of us haven’t realized it yet."
Who is that Sam Harris character?