Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

peterstorey said:
The Palestinian state that should have been instituted after the Ottoman empire by a process of self-determination of the people living in the territory. There would need to have been a majority of Jews living in the region for self-determination to have resulted in a Jewish state.
Click to expand...

Why wasn't that process initiated during the Ottoman rule? Is self-determination something that is only supposed to happen at certain points (power vacuums, etc) or can it happen at any point in history? If so, then why wasn't a process of self-determination initiated between 1948-1967?

Are you actually of the opinion that Israel the way it exists now, as an independent state, does not have the right to exist?
 
It's so frustrating when both "sides" of the argument exaggerate the wrongs of the other side while diminishing the wrongs of their own side. If everyone could think about this rationally and place themselves in the shoes of another, both sides would change their stance on things and we would have peace but unfortunately that can never happen when tempers flare, as this thread shows.

I place more criticism on the Israeli government because as an organisation, they are way more in control of the situation - better resources, power and more organised full stop - but I am sure that if Hamas were in Israel's position then they would be at least as bad. If this is to be solved I am of the opinion that the Israeli government has to make the biggest compromise because Israel has more to lose. What does Gaza have to lose? Not much...
 
Shamwow said:
It's so frustrating when both "sides" of the argument exaggerate the wrongs of the other side while diminishing the wrongs of their own side. If everyone could think about this rationally and place themselves in the shoes of another, both sides would change their stance on things and we would have peace but unfortunately that can never happen when tempers flare, as this thread shows.

I place more criticism on the Israeli government because as an organisation, they are way more in control of the situation - better resources, power and more organised full stop - but I am sure that if Hamas were in Israel's position then they would be at least as bad. If this is to be solved I am of the opinion that the Israeli government has to make the biggest compromise because Israel has more to lose. What does Gaza have to lose? Not much...
Click to expand...

Its all a part of trying to seize the moral high ground among observers. The Israelis have a knack for sending their actors (spokespeople, diplomats, politicians, military officers) before the cameras to appeal to western audiences. I'm sure Hamas has plenty of the same types on Arabic TV, and no of course Khaled Meshaal is hitting the western TV circuit.
 
VidaRed said:
all israelis are not zionists! infact all jews aren't either.
Click to expand...

Well thank god for that. I know all the jews are not zionists, that's why I insisted on zionists not authentic jews. There are a lot of balanced people in Israel, like the ones who marched in Tel Aviv to defend Palestine. Unfortunately those who are ruling are neocons/racists/insane.
 
There have been 53 instances - 285 martyrs - where entire families have been exterminated by Israeli military attacks, ranging from families consisting of two to 26 people. The Families are:

1. Hamad Family -From Beit Hanoun: 6 members
2. Kawar' -From Khan Younis: 8 members
3. Al-Manasra -From Central Gaza: 4 members
4. Al-Haj -From Khan Younis: 8 members
5. Abu Jame' -From Khan Younis: 2 members
6. Abdel Ghafour -From Khan Younis: 2 members
7. Ghannam -From Rafah: 4 members
8. Al-Arja -From Rafah: 2 members
9. Al-Astak -From Khan Younis: 15 members
10. Al-Sawali -From Khan Younis: 2 members
11. Al-Batsh -From Gaza City: 17 members
12. Al-Sheik Eid -From Rafah: 3 members
13. Abu Dakka -From Khan Younis: 3 members
14. Baker -From Gaza City: 4 Children
15. Za'rab -From Khan Younis: 3 members
16. Sh-heibar- From Sabra/ Gaza City: 3 Children
17. Abu Sneineh: 3 members
18. Abu-Jarad -From North Gaza: 8 members
19. Shaath -From Khan Younis: 4 Children
20. Nateez -From Gaza City: 3 members
21. Radwan -From Khan Younis: 4 members
22. Abu-Muslim -From North Gaza: 3 Children
23. Al-Zweidi -From Beit Hanoon: 5 members
24. Za'boot -From Al-Zaytoon: 2 members
25. Salhiya -From Khan Younis: 4 members
26. Al-Rhel -From Beit Lahya: 2 members
27. Abu-Muamar -From Khan Younis and Rafah: 6 members
28. Hamoudeh -From Beit Lahya: 2 members
29. Isleem -From Shujaiya: 4 members
30. Al-Sha'er -From Khan Younis: 4 members
31. Al-Hayeh -From Shujaiya: 4 members
32. Ziyadeh -From Al-Bureij: 3 members
33. Ayyad -From Shujaiya: 10 members
34. Radwan -From Khan Younis: 4 members
35. Syam -From Rafah: 11 members
36. Abu-Jame': 26 members
37. Brei'em -From Deir Al-Balah: 3 members
38. Al-Yazigi -From the North: 5 members
39. Al-Hallak -From Gaza City: 7 members
40. Hamidiyeh -From Gaza City: 4 members
41. Al-Kilani -From Gaza City: 7 members
42. Al-Hajaj -From Gaza City: 4 members
43. Al-Radee' -From the North: 3 members
44. Al-Mukata' -From Central Gaza: 2 members
45. Al-Skafi -From Shujaiya: 4 members
46. Al-Shinbari -From Beit Hanoon: 7 members
47. Abdel Nabi -From the North: 3 members
48. Abu-Ayteh -From the North: 4 members
49. Abu-Jazar -From Khan Younis: 3 members
50. Abu-Hasanein -From Rafah: 4 members
51. Al-Hilo -From Shujaiya: 11 members
52. Abu-Shahla -From Khan Younis: 4 members
53. Al-Najjar -From Khan Younis: 13 members.

(Source: Gaza Ministry of Health/ and Maan) -July 26, 2014
 
IhabX7 said:


The truth and the only way to move forward.
Click to expand...


This is unrealistic babble. First of all, there's a siege because Hamas use basic supplies to build tunnels into Israel and they hide them in civilian areas. I don't know the ins and outs of this because I don't live in the region (and nor do most of you judging Israel as some kind of moral monster) but I believe this is part of the reasoning behind completely leveling many of the settlements in Gaza.

The argument is not to say Israel are doing absolutely everything correctly from a humanitarian point of view (I don't believe it's possible to do that when you're dealing with terrorists) but the recognition must be that Hamas' agenda is not to seek peace with Israel. Any negotiations are only going to be agreed to on Hamas' behalf if they further their ideological agenda to undermine Israel.

It's very easy to point the finger at Israel and call them very mean spirited for doing what they are (which I accept is quite ruthless in its efficiency) and to ignore the fact the terrorist threat is constant and a very legitimate concern for Israel.

What would you expect the government of your country to do if an equivalent to Hamas was on your doorstep with the declared intention to destroy your nation? Wouldn't you expect some kind of siege after multiple missile strikes on civilian areas and witnessing the many tunnels that have been built under civilians?

Your basic assumption that Hamas want peace is dead wrong and it is wrong to condemn Israel simply because they are committed to ensuring the safety of their borders. You would implore your leaders to act in exactly the same way if the problem was in your back yard.
 
Herman Van Rompuy said:
Your basic assumption that Hamas want peace is dead wrong and it is wrong to condemn Israel simply because they are committed to ensuring the safety of their borders. You would implore your leaders to act in exactly the same way if the problem was in your back yard.
Click to expand...

Let's be honest if the boot was on the other foot, there'd be no Israel left would there?
 
Herman Van Rompuy said:
This is unrealistic babble. First of all, there's a siege because Hamas use basic supplies to build tunnels into Israel and they hide them in civilian areas. I don't know the ins and outs of this because I don't live in the region (and nor do most of you judging Israel as some kind of moral monster) but I believe this is part of the reasoning behind completely leveling many of the settlements in Gaza.

The argument is not to say Israel are doing absolutely everything correctly from a humanitarian point of view (I don't believe it's possible to do that when you're dealing with terrorists) but the recognition must be that Hamas' agenda is not to seek peace with Israel. Any negotiations are only going to be agreed to on Hamas' behalf if they further their ideological agenda to undermine Israel.

It's very easy to point the finger at Israel and call them very mean spirited for doing what they are (which I accept is quite ruthless in its efficiency) and to ignore the fact the terrorist threat is constant and a very legitimate concern for Israel.

What would you expect the government of your country to do if an equivalent to Hamas was on your doorstep with the declared intention to destroy your nation? Wouldn't you expect some kind of siege after multiple missile strikes on civilian areas and witnessing the many tunnels that have been built under civilians?

Your basic assumption that Hamas want peace is dead wrong and it is wrong to condemn Israel simply because they are committed to ensuring the safety of their borders. You would implore your leaders to act in exactly the same way if the problem was in your back yard.
Click to expand...

I do not think that the amount of destruction, deaths (including women & children) and suffering brought on by the Israelis is in anyway proportionate to the threat caused by Hamas. True, the Palestinians have brought much of their suffering on themselves. But that is still no excuses for excessive force used as well as things such as illegal settlements in Palestinian territories.
 
Herman Van Rompuy said:
This is unrealistic babble. First of all, there's a siege because Hamas use basic supplies to build tunnels into Israel and they hide them in civilian areas. I don't know the ins and outs of this because I don't live in the region (and nor do most of you judging Israel as some kind of moral monster) but I believe this is part of the reasoning behind completely leveling many of the settlements in Gaza.

The argument is not to say Israel are doing absolutely everything correctly from a humanitarian point of view (I don't believe it's possible to do that when you're dealing with terrorists) but the recognition must be that Hamas' agenda is not to seek peace with Israel. Any negotiations are only going to be agreed to on Hamas' behalf if they further their ideological agenda to undermine Israel.

It's very easy to point the finger at Israel and call them very mean spirited for doing what they are (which I accept is quite ruthless in its efficiency) and to ignore the fact the terrorist threat is constant and a very legitimate concern for Israel.

What would you expect the government of your country to do if an equivalent to Hamas was on your doorstep with the declared intention to destroy your nation? Wouldn't you expect some kind of siege after multiple missile strikes on civilian areas and witnessing the many tunnels that have been built under civilians?

Your basic assumption that Hamas want peace is dead wrong and it is wrong to condemn Israel simply because they are committed to ensuring the safety of their borders. You would implore your leaders to act in exactly the same way if the problem was in your back yard.
Click to expand...

Gaza was under seige long before the tunnels, your assumption that Isreal does this to protect its borders is laughable, Israel doesn't want peace because it doesn't want to declare its border, it wants to continue to colonise Palestine
 
Rams said:
I do not think that the amount of destruction, deaths (including women & children) and suffering brought on by the Israelis is in anyway proportionate to the threat caused by Hamas. True, the Palestinians have brought much of their suffering on themselves. But that is still no excuses for excessive force used as well as things such as illegal settlements in Palestinian territories.
Click to expand...

I don't think the deaths of women and children and the sheer destruction of war can ever be proportionate. We're talking about truly horrific consequences. I can't look at the images of the bodies because I don't have the stomach for it and my heart, ultimately, is for those innocent families whose lives have been devastated by the bombings.

My abject horror at what is happening in Gaza does not, however, resolve the issue. I can state my displeasure all i want or talk in the empty platitudes of politicians about seeking peace etc etc, but none of that will move anybody one inch closer to stability. The problem of Hamas remains and I simply don't know how Israel should act. I am aware, if only out of empathy, that Israel must protect her people but at the same time, nobody wants to see the broken bodies of innocent men, women and children being carried from the rubble of a bomb-shattered building.

Tell me, when you have footage of rockets being fired from what you know to be Gazan schools and hospitals and you send out warnings for civilians to evacuate before you retaliate, all the while knowing that Hamas will force those civilians to stay where they are, what do you do? Do you allow Hamas to continue launching missiles from those platforms or do you strike knowing you will kill many innocent Palestinian women and children in the process. That's a truly heartbreaking decision to have to make isn't it? That's the reality of the situation.
 
Herman Van Rompuy said:
Tell me, when you have footage of rockets being fired from what you know to be Gazan schools and hospitals and you send out warnings for civilians to evacuate before you retaliate, all the while knowing that Hamas will force those civilians to stay where they are, what do you do? Do you allow Hamas to continue launching missiles from those platforms or do you strike knowing you will kill many innocent Palestinian women and children in the process. That's a truly heartbreaking decision to have to make isn't it? That's the reality of the situation.
Click to expand...

Exactly - Israel is in a total catch-22. Damned if it doesn't, damned if it does.
 
Herman Van Rompuy said:
I don't think the deaths of women and children and the sheer destruction of war can ever be proportionate. We're talking about truly horrific consequences. I can't look at the images of the bodies because I don't have the stomach for it and my heart, ultimately, is for those innocent families whose lives have been devastated by the bombings.

My abject horror at what is happening in Gaza does not, however, resolve the issue. I can state my displeasure all i want or talk in the empty platitudes of politicians about seeking peace etc etc, but none of that will move anybody one inch closer to stability. The problem of Hamas remains and I simply don't know how Israel should act. I am aware, if only out of empathy, that Israel must protect her people but at the same time, nobody wants to see the broken bodies of innocent men, women and children being carried from the rubble of a bomb-shattered building.

Tell me, when you have footage of rockets being fired from what you know to be Gazan schools and hospitals and you send out warnings for civilians to evacuate before you retaliate, all the while knowing that Hamas will force those civilians to stay where they are, what do you do? Do you allow Hamas to continue launching missiles from those platforms or do you strike knowing you will kill many innocent Palestinian women and children in the process. That's a truly heartbreaking decision to have to make isn't it? That's the reality of the situation.
Click to expand...

As of last week something like Israel had blankted 43% of Gaza with evacuation notices, one of the most densely populated areas in earth expected to get even more densely populated.

Face it, the only reason Israel asks people to evecuate is for PR purposes, it doesn't care how many Palestinains it kills
 
Last edited:
Mozza said:
As of last week something like Israel had blankted 43% of Gaza wiht evacuation notices, one of the most densely populated areas in earth expected to get even more densely populated.

Face it, the only reason Israel asks people to evecuate is for PR purposes, it doesn't care how many Palestinains it kills
Click to expand...

See, this isn't a rational post. I can understand people saying these sorts of things in the heat of the moment, but when you have time to type out your thoughts, read what you've written, edit and revise and then hit submit, this kind of comment shouldn't be possible.
 
Herman Van Rompuy said:
See, this isn't a rational post. I can understand people saying these sorts of things in the heat of the moment, but when you have time to type out your thoughts, read what you've written, edit and revise and then hit submit, this kind of comment shouldn't be possible.
Click to expand...

Isreal has been collectively punnising the people of Gaza for the last 8 years, there have been 3 (4?) wars in that time, do you really think they give a shit how many they kill beyond the purposes of PR? Kill too many and their allies will have to intervene. Everything is measured, in the same manner that they insure Gaza is forever on the edge of humanitarian crises but never in a full blown one
 
You must log in or register to reply here.