Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Do you reckon it would be interesting to hear Wafa Sultan's take on the conflict, or that of Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of a prominent Hamas leader?

Gideon Levy is an attention-seeking excuse for a journalist, and is not taken seriously even by left-wing Israelis.

By all means share them, like I said it would be interesting to hear dissenting views.

Can't say I know too much about Levy besides the fact he's not liked very much in Israel and that he requires a bodyguard 24/7, but theres not much he's said that I disagree with.
 

Just given it a watch, its what I expected.

Horribly one-sided and simplified to dignify one side and demonise the other. Unfortunately the issue isn't as simple as that.

What if fails to mention was that hundreds of thousands of Palestinians that were displaced, the settlement program sponsored by the Israeli government to eat in at Palestinian territory, the fact Israel refuses to declare its borders, and that Jordan and Egypt were not required to recognise Israel as a Jewish state - not to mention the privileges Jews get in Israel and the discrimination faced by non-Jews. He was lying about Columbia university too.

Here's a video depicting the 'other side's' explanation. Ignore the last part about the boycotting.

 
Just part of the territory called Palestine. Othes will want to return to their homes in Israel

Well, they will not. Just as Jews are not likely to go back to their pre-1948 settlements in Arab controlled areas. Peace will only be achieved here when the Arabs move on.
 
Just given it a watch, its what I expected.

Horribly one-sided and simplified to dignify one side and demonise the other. Unfortunately the issue isn't as simple as that.

What if fails to mention was that hundreds of thousands of Palestinians that were displaced, the settlement program sponsored by the Israeli government to eat in at Palestinian territory, the fact Israel refuses to declare its borders, and that Jordan and Egypt were not required to recognise Israel as a Jewish state - not to mention the privileges Jews get in Israel and the discrimination faced by non-Jews. He was lying about Columbia university too.

Here's a video depicting the 'other side's' explanation. Ignore the last part about the boycotting.



To be honest, both videos look as biased as could be.
 
By all means share them, like I said it would be interesting to hear dissenting views.

Can't say I know too much about Levy besides the fact he's not liked very much in Israel and that he requires a bodyguard 24/7, but theres not much he's said that I disagree with.

I didn't think you'd disagree with him, but for all the available relevant criticisms of Israel I'm sure you would not want to base yours on lies.

Haaretz, Gideon Levy, and the Israel apartheid canard
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/haaretz-gideon-levy-and-the-israel-apartheid-canard/

Baron of the Falsehood Industry
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1gPg475n2hm0aLc0sjVk26OkXWuilfSb7bX2zeNU9C2w
 
What about the Arabs living in parts of the West bank that are annexed? They dont have a vote.

Its apartheid.
 
I didn't think you'd disagree with him, but for all the available relevant criticisms of Israel I'm sure you would not want to base yours on lies.

Haaretz, Gideon Levy, and the Israel apartheid canard
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/haaretz-gideon-levy-and-the-israel-apartheid-canard/

Baron of the Falsehood Industry
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1gPg475n2hm0aLc0sjVk26OkXWuilfSb7bX2zeNU9C2w

If he's quoting false statistics and distorting trends then that's indefensible. Though I can't say I disagree with much of what he told DemocracyNow.
 
Three out of four are in favour of segregated roads for Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank, and 58% believe Israel already practises apartheid against Palestinians, the poll found.

A third want Arab citizens within Israel to be banned from voting in elections to the country's parliament. Almost six out of 10 say Jews should be given preference to Arabs in government jobs, 49% say Jewish citizens should be treated better than Arabs, 42% would not want to live in the same building as Arabs and the same number do not want their children going to school with Arabs.

Shocking stuff. Not much spinning needed for these figures.
 
Here's a video depicting the 'other side's' explanation. Ignore the last part about the boycotting.



Please do not ignore the last part because the BDS movement is hell bent on the destruction of Israel, which explains why this video is a riddled with blatant lies.
 
They are.

Use both videos sparingly and with caution as a means to formulate your own opinions.

I would suggest forgetting about both and reading history books instead. Alternatively, you could watch football and just follow scoreline updates from the bloodbath in the ME.
 
Please do not ignore the last part because the BDS movement is hell bent on the destruction of Israel, which explains why this video is a riddled with blatant lies.

I personally don't agree with the BDS movement since its immoral and largely ineffective (though I'm not averted to boycotting products from illegal settlements), but the video does make some important points the other video largely ignores.
 
If he's quoting false statistics and distorting trends then that's indefensible. Though I can't say I disagree with much of what he told DemocracyNow.

He belongs to those who don't want a Jewish Israel. Hence, part of the problem and not the solution. Of course you're entitled to agree with him on various issues, and I'm sure he's right about a couple of things. However, his blatant lies undermine his credebility so much I would take extra caution in quoting what he presents as facts.

I'd use the same caution with Ha'aretz headlines and editorials, at least if I was after gauging the Israeli society. It's become a radical-left pamplet, although I'll take Amir's word on the decent sports section. Personally, I cancelled my subscription back in 2000.
 
I personally don't agree with the BDS movement since its immoral and largely ineffective (though I'm not averted to boycotting products from illegal settlements), but the video does make some important points the other video largely ignores.

A video starting with flocking European immigrants, while ignoring the fact they were only in Europe because they were expellled from the Land of Israel/Roman Palestine in the first place loses credibility before the clock reached 30 seconds. I also loved the part ignoring Jordan as part of "historic Palestine"- ruins portraying the land allocated to Jews as the lion's share of that "historic Palestine".

There was a comic part about the attack on 1-day old Israel. Israel declared, Arab states attacked...Who's missing in that scenario? You guessed right- the "Palestinians"! They were just victims. They never took part in that attempt to annihilate the Jews.

Come on, Kaos. You put your arguments across much better than that. This video is for FB imbeciles.
 
A video starting with flocking European immigrants, while ignoring the fact they were only in Europe because they were expellled from the Land of Israel/Roman Palestine in the first place loses credibility before the clock reached 30 seconds. I also loved the part ignoring Jordan as part of "historic Palestine"- ruins portraying the land allocated to Jews as the lion's share of that "historic Palestine".

There was a comic part about the attack on 1-day old Israel. Israel declared, Arab states attacked...Who's missing in that scenario? You guessed right- the "Palestinians"! They were just victims. They never took part in that attempt to annihilate the Jews.

Come on, Kaos. You put your arguments across much better than that. This video is for FB imbeciles.

Its a severely flawed video, as are most which try to dilute the conflict into a 5 minute animated piece, but the important points I was alluding to were the institutionalised discrimination, the settlement issue and border declarations or thereby lack of.
 
Its a severely flawed video, as are most which try to dilute the conflict into a 5 minute animated piece, but the important points I was alluding to were the institutionalised discrimination, the settlement issue and border declarations or thereby lack of.

But then again it is fale. Arabs own land and houses here (btw, I don't!), and the discrimination largely stems from an ongoing national conflict (nevermind the issue of discriminated minorites everywhere). As for the settlements, this 5-minute video elegantly missed that homes of 8,000 Jews were demolished in the Gaza Strip resulting in rocket fire on Tel Aviv rather than peace.

Poor.
 
70% of Sderot kids traumatized
Despite recent calm, study finds third of all Qassam-ridden city's residents suffer from severe anxiety

Shaked and Maor Harush, 11-year-old twins from Sderot, saw a Qassam rocket explode a few feet away from them, setting a car ablaze. Since then, fear has become an everyday presence in their lives.

Shaked suffers from the worst of the trauma. She refuses to leave home without her parents. A slamming door makes her jump. Any conversation about the security situation is out of the question when Shaked is around, and her family knows to avoid words like Qassam and Color Red altogether.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4093281,00.html
 
70% of Sderot kids traumatized
Despite recent calm, study finds third of all Qassam-ridden city's residents suffer from severe anxiety

Shaked and Maor Harush, 11-year-old twins from Sderot, saw a Qassam rocket explode a few feet away from them, setting a car ablaze. Since then, fear has become an everyday presence in their lives.

Shaked suffers from the worst of the trauma. She refuses to leave home without her parents. A slamming door makes her jump. Any conversation about the security situation is out of the question when Shaked is around, and her family knows to avoid words like Qassam and Color Red altogether.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4093281,00.html

Lets hope whoever put these children through such a trauma is caught and get more than a three month suspended sentence like the IDF cowards who used a nine year old as a piece of bomb disposal equipment.
 
Lets hope whoever put these children through such a trauma is caught and get more than a three month suspended sentence like the IDF cowards who used a nine year old as a piece of bomb disposal equipment.

Let's also hope the next time London police officers fire 7 bullets to the head of a wrestled Brazilian student they actually get prosecuted.
 
Let's also hope the next time London police officers fire 7 bullets to the head of a wrestled Brazilian student they actually get prosecuted.

You're always deflecting bad things Israel are doing with bad things other countries do. Doesn't make it okay to do it. You do know that right?

Let me guess, you're going to reply to this with something Hamas has done...
 
Report: Egyptian troops shoot, kill terrorist heading to Kerem Shalom
Terrorists planned a massive suicide bombing at border crossing; on Wednesday, Egyptian army stops vechile with grad rockets and launchers heading to Israeli border.

Roi Kais

Published: 07.24.14, 13:45 / Israel News
Palestinian news agency Ma'an reported Thursday that Egyptian troops shot and killed a terrorist who was on his way to commit a massive suicide bombing at the Kerem Shalom border crossing with Israel.
 
You're always deflecting bad things Israel are doing with bad things other countries do. Doesn't make it okay to do it. You do know that right?

Let me guess, you're going to reply to this with something Hamas has done...

Actually not. I was going to suggest a video for you:

 
Let's also hope the next time London police officers fire 7 bullets to the head of a wrestled Brazilian student they actually get prosecuted.

What has that to do with anything?

Goal post moving. You cant face up to the fact that IDF forces terrorized a child and use him as a human shield. Then the Isreal courts give them a three months suspended sentence.

If a Palestinian used a Jewish child as a human shield what punishment would you call for? Im guessing the dead penalty.

Its just shows your hypocrisy.
 
What has that to do with anything?

Goal post moving. You cant face up to the fact that IDF forces terrorized a child and use him as a human shield. Then the Isreal courts give them a three months suspended sentence.

If a Palestinian used a Jewish child as a human shield what punishment would you call for? Im guessing the dead penalty.

Its just shows your hypocrisy.

The bolded part is the answer for your opening question.

You're telling a story here about a soldier (not "the IDF") allegedly committing an offence. Your story then goes on describing what you think is a light sentence. Could be.
 
The bolded part is the answer for your opening question.

You're telling a story here about a soldier (not "the IDF") allegedly committing an offence. Your story then goes on describing what you think is a light sentence. Could be.

What are you on about? How its it hypocritical of me?

I am forever complaining about the British Police and security forces. :lol:
 
What are you on about? How its it hypocritical of me?

I am forever complaining about the British Police and security forces. :lol:

Hypocritical as in judging Israel by a completely different set of standards not only compared with its enemies, but of Western standards too.
 
Hypocritical as in judging Israel by a completely different set of standards not only compared with its enemies, but of Western standards too.



Whataboutery

The practice of responding to a difficult question or problem by raising another difficult question or problem, in order to deflect attention from the original question.


I think you will find I don't condone or support any cases of Police or Army actions similar to the ones I would criticize Israel for.
 
http://www.european-forum-on-antisemitism.org/working-definition-of-antisemitism/

WORKING DEFINITION OF ANTISEMITISM

The purpose of this document is to provide a practical guide for identifying incidents, collecting data, and supporting the implementation and enforcement of legislation dealing with antisemitism.

Working definition: “Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”

In addition, such manifestations could also target the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for “why things go wrong.” It is expressed in speech, writing, visual forms and action, and employs sinister stereotypes and negative character traits.

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

  • Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.

  • Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

  • Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.

  • Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).

  • Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.

  • Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:

  • Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

  • Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

  • Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

  • Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
  • Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.

Antisemitic acts are criminal when they are so defined by law (for example, denial of the Holocaust or distribution of antisemitic materials in some countries).

Criminal acts are antisemitic when the targets of attacks, whether they are people or property – such as buildings, schools, places of worship and cemeteries – are selected because they are, or are perceived to be, Jewish or linked to Jews.

Antisemitic discrimination is the denial to Jews of opportunities or services available to others and is illegal in many countries.
 
There is no rational basis for the argument that criticism of the state of Israel and the political ideology of Zionism is anti‑Semitic, just as it makes no sense to consider criticizing apartheid South Africa’s racist policies toward blacks as evidence of racism toward whites, or that criticism of Nazi policies toward the Jews should not be allowed because it is evidence of racism against Germans.

Similarly, if you criticize American policy toward the Iraq war and torture at Abu Ghraib Prison, or the Jim Crow laws that institutionalized discrimination against blacks in the southern states,47 that you are racist against Americans. This argument is obviously absurd and should not even require a response.

In a free society, one has a basic right to evaluate and criticize a political ideology or movement and to review and criticize a state’s policies. A critique should be evaluated on the basis of the truthfulness of the facts and the logic of the arguments presented. One also has a right to present alternative facts and engage in debate. When one side wants to avoid debate, divert the discussion or suppress the topic and launches personal attacks against its opponents, it is almost certain that it is hiding some uncomfortable truths.

Palestinians are, however, charged with anti-Semitism if they complain about the destruction of 531 of their villages; the ethnic cleansing of their cities;48 the loss of their country and rights to citizenship, and then not being allowed to return to their homes in contravention of international law; or the discriminatory policies of the Jewish National Fund;49 the inequities of the Jewish Law of Return;50 house demolitions;51 discrimination against Muslims and Christian Palestinians;52 illegal Jewish-only settlements;53 the more than 600 Israeli military checkpoints in the West Bank;54 the 42 years of military occupation of Gaza and the West Bank; the program of targeted assassinations;55 the well-documented cases of torture;56 the imprisonment of more than 11,000 Palestinians, including women and children, many held without charge under what is called Administrative Detention;57 or the recent slaughter in Gaza.

http://mepc.org/about-council/contact
 
Joel Beinin in “Silencing Critics Not Way to Middle East Peace,” an article published in the San Francisco Chronicle, discussed the campaign to silence critics of Israeli policy. Beinin, a professor of history at Stanford University, is active in Jewish Voice for Peace and an editor of Jewish Peace News.3 Here is what he had to say about the campaign to attack critics of Israel’s policies toward the Palestinians:

Why discredit, defame and silence those with opposing viewpoints? I believe it is because the Zionist lobby knows it cannot win based on facts. An honest discussion can only lead to one conclusion: The status quo in which Israel declares it alone has rights and intends to impose its will on the weaker Palestinians, stripping them permanently of their land, resources and rights, cannot lead to a lasting peace. We need an open debate and the freedom to discuss uncomfortable facts and explore the full range of policy options. Only then can we adopt a foreign policy that serves American interests and one that could actually bring a just peace to Palestinians and Israelis. 4


DEFENDING PALESTINIAN HUMAN RIGHTS
The Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims have many legitimate reasons to criticize the policies and actions of the Jewish state. No state is above criticism, particularly not a state that aggressively and repeatedly attacks its neighbors, discriminates against its Arab population and is slowly but systematically ethnically cleansing its territory.

There is also much to criticize in the Arab world, but it would be absurd to say that one cannot criticize Saudi Arabia for its treatment of women or its human-rights record, because such criticism is racist against Arabs or is anti-Muslim. A person who made such an argument would be laughed at. No one would take him or the argument seriously.

Yet the allegation of anti‑Semitism is a frequent smear tactic that has been used against non-Jewish individuals who have publicly supported Palestinian human rights.59

To conclude, here is what Ran HaCohen, an Israeli academic, has to say about using anti-Semitism as a means of silencing criticism of Israel’s policies toward the Palestinians.

The eve of the Jewish New Year is an excellent occasion for what Jewish tradition calls Kheshbon Nefesh, or soul‑searching, on so‑called “anti‑semitism,” which has now become the single most important element of Jewish identity. Jews may believe in God or not, eat pork or not, live in Israel or not, but they are all united by their unlimited belief in anti‑semitism.


When a Palestinian kills innocent Israeli civilians, it’s anti‑semitism. When Palestinians attack soldiers of Israel’s occupation army in their own village, it’s anti‑semitism. When the UN General Assembly votes 133 to 4 condemning Israel’s decision to murder the elected Palestinian leader, it means that except for the US, Micronesia and the Marshal Islands, all other countries on the globe are anti‑semitic. Even when a pregnant Palestinian woman is stopped at an Israeli check‑point and gives birth in an open field, the only lesson to be learnt is that Ha’aretz journalist Gideon Levy — who reported two such cases in the past two weeks, one in which the baby died — is an anti‑semite.

Anti‑semitism is an all‑encompassing explanation. Anything unpleasant to anti‑Palestinian ears is just another instance of anti‑semitism. Jewish consciousness focused on anti‑semitism has taken the shape of anti‑semitic conspiracy theories like that of The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion: whereas the anti‑semitic classic relates every calamity to Jewish conspiracy, Jews relate to anti‑semitic conspiracy every criticism of Israel. As we shall see, this is not the only similarity between anti‑Palestinianism and anti‑semitism.

The abuse of alleged anti‑semitism is morally despicable. It took hundreds of years and millions of victims to turn anti‑semitism — a specific case of racism which led historically to genocide — into a taboo. People abusing this taboo in order to support Israel’s racist and genocidal policy towards the Palestinians do nothing less than desecrate the memory of those Jewish victims, whose death, from a humanistic perspective, is meaningful only inasmuch as it serves as an eternal warning to human kind against all kinds of discrimination, racism and genocide.60



http://mepc.org/journal/middle-east-policy-archives/anti-zionism-anti-semitic?print