I agree that it's regretful that civilians are being killed there, and that this is not going to make us Israelis popular in Gaza even among those who know that Hamas provoked us to respond. However, Israel's government is responsible for the safety of their citizens first and foremost and winning popularity contests is only second in importance.
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
- Thread starter Raoul
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I agree that it's regretful that civilians are being killed there, and that this is not going to make us Israelis popular in Gaza even among those who know that Hamas provoked us to respond. However, Israel's government is responsible for the safety of their citizens first and foremost and winning popularity contests is only second in importance.
It's one less now. Whether Gaza is hot or cold Israel is always punishing the children of Gaza
The Abstention vote is such a cop out, voting 'Yes' or 'No' should be a mandatory requirement for membership. Britain created entire mess in the Middle East yet they've made the abstention vote their own.
A testement to the Palestinian peoples determination to see justice done
I listened to all the speakers and discussion on the S21L1 Draft here... all of the EU countries that abstained differentiated themselves from the USA in that they emphasized that both Hamas and Israel should respect international law.
Like I said, not a strong enough word. An absolute idiot would be more apt in my opinion.
You need to turn to a alternative news channel. People throughout the entire world are objecting to Israel's handling of this situation.
Or alternatively, a testament of their fellow Arabs using them as a political tool against Israel while having them live in the gutter for 70 years in the process. All other 1940's refugees have re-settled, whereas the Palestinians still get to hate, kill and get blown up for three generations now.
I think quite rightly both sides should be help to account for their part in this so I agree with their sentiments. I just can't help but think that despite what they say, most of those names who have abstained, should push come to shove, will end up behind Israel on this one.
Here's a 4 minute clip exploring the terrifying perspective of being intensely shelled by the IDF
When my life is at stake I kind of lose interest on what you and your mates say on your alternative channels. Enjoy Putin and King Abdullah's company.
Mostly Christian nations abstaining, probably has some relevance.
My understanding is that Israel couldn't exist without 100s of millions of US military aid. We must be pretty motivated to do so, by something.
"Speaking in Qatar, political chief Khaled Mashal demands Israel lift blockade, says Gaza-based group will never agree to disarm." (ynet)
And again more rockets fired today. Why can't they just stop. Absolutely mad.
And again more rockets fired today. Why can't they just stop. Absolutely mad.
Thought It'd be interesting to hear a dissenting viewpoint from Israeli journalist Gideon Levy (who I'm sure Amir would have heard of from the Ha'aretz):
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/22/israeli_writer_gideon_levy_if_netanyahu
Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: Gideon Levy is with us from Tel Aviv, the Ha’aretz columnist and a member of the editorial board. You, Gideon Levy, in a piece, wrote that "Israel does not want peace." That was the headline. Why?
GIDEON LEVY: You just have to look at the record. I mean, sure, Israel wants peace. Israel just doesn’t want a just peace. And it’s all about justice. You look backwards, and you ask yourself: In which stage, in which moment, was Israel willing to give up the occupation? Give me one example in which there was a genuine readiness to put an end to the occupation. It was never there. It was all about gaining time and maintaining the status quo. And it’s also now about gaining time and maintaining the status quo—namely, the West Bank occupied, Gaza under siege, peaceful life in Israel. This formula cannot last forever. And I wish I’ll be wrong, but I cannot recall one example in which there was a genuine willingness to put an end to the occupation. This was never. There were all kind of—we had Oslo. We had other peace talks. But it was never there.
And if you want the most ultimate proof for it, it’s the settlements. Nobody is saying we’ll continue to build settlements if he has an intention to return those lands. But Israel never stopped building settlements. And as Israel never stopped building settlements, Israel said to the Palestinians and to the world, "I have no intention to give up this piece of land."
AARON MATÉ: Gideon Levy, you also wrote a recent piece that was called "Israel’s Real Purpose in Gaza Operation? To Kill Arabs." And you write, "Since the first Lebanon war, more than 30 years ago, the killing of Arabs has become Israel’s primary strategic instrument." Can you explain this for us?
GIDEON LEVY: Again, I wish I wouldn’t write those harsh things, but look at reality. All the recent wars or operations in the recent 30 years were finally aimed at civilian populations, with horrifying scenes, with unproportional means, like in those days in Gaza. Finally, a war between Israel and Palestinians, in the recent—and Israel and Lebanon—in the recent 30 years looks always the same: Israelis killing many, many civilians, unproportionally, and the resistance, the Palestinian resistance, is trying to fight back. But, as I wrote in this article, it’s a meeting between an elephant and a fly, in terms of capabilities and equipment. And it always ends up the same, with hundreds and hundreds civilian casualties on the Palestinian or Lebanese side, with, thanks God, many, many fewer or much fewer casualties—and many times not at all—in Israelis’ side. And here we go to the next circle, to the next cycle, to the next confrontation.
AMY GOODMAN: Gideon Levy, you also wrote a piece, "Lowest Deeds from Loftiest Heights," about the Air Force pilots who are bombing Gaza. Can you talk about what you said and the response to this piece?
GIDEON LEVY: This article was published one week ago in the middle of the operation. Israel almost got united in a very aggressive reaction to this article. Things became so bad that I need to be accompanied by a bodyguard those days. Israel is not tolerant in those days and not ready to listen to any kind of criticism.
What I tried to write is that watching at all those horrible scenes in Gaza—and, believe me, there are horrible scenes there, because watching the Israeli TV, you see none, or almost none, but watching international networks, you can see the real tragedy there—someone has to be taken accountable for this. Someone is responsible for this. And I thought that the pilots, who are the best of our sons, the most intelligent ones and the most highly appreciated ones—really, the elite of Israeli society—they take part in this, and they cannot remain out of any kind of responsibility, or at least some kind of moral doubts about what they are doing. Yes, they don’t see their victims: They sit in the cockpit. But I thought they should see and confront their victims, the civilian victims, the whole families which were exterminated in the recent days. And I aimed it to them, and I succeeded, at least, in creating a huge public debate in Israel.
AMY GOODMAN: You said they should resist, that they shouldn’t engage in the bombing?
GIDEON LEVY: I didn’t say so. I just say that in 2003, 27 very courageous pilots did not participate, wrote a letter of refusal and said they don’t want to take part in this. I say that this time there is even not one. I didn’t go further than this. We don’t know yet all the details, but I would expect at least some kind of awareness and public discussion about this issue, because they cannot be above, above discussion or above doubts. Also, pilots can be doubtful.
AMY GOODMAN: You are now traveling with a bodyguard?
GIDEON LEVY: Unfortunately, yes.
AMY GOODMAN: Why?
GIDEON LEVY: Because the level of threats and the atmosphere in the street. And, believe me, I’m quite experienced with threats, but now it’s becoming really unpleasant and maybe dangerous. I don’t know. But too many people warned me that my life is in danger. I don’t know if it’s true. But Ha’aretz, my newspaper, decided not to take risks, and I had to take a bodyguard, yes.
AARON MATÉ: I want to ask about this new Palestinian effort to take Israel to the International Criminal Court. Speaking to ABC News this past weekend, the influential Palestinian legislator and scholar Hanan Ashrawi said the Palestine Liberation Organization has decided to apply to join the International Criminal Court, which could open up war crimes charges against Israel.
HAMISH MACDONALD: You have threatened to bring forward the application, an application for Palestine to join International Criminal Court.
HANAN ASHRAWI: Yes.
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/22/israeli_writer_gideon_levy_if_netanyahu
Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: Gideon Levy is with us from Tel Aviv, the Ha’aretz columnist and a member of the editorial board. You, Gideon Levy, in a piece, wrote that "Israel does not want peace." That was the headline. Why?
GIDEON LEVY: You just have to look at the record. I mean, sure, Israel wants peace. Israel just doesn’t want a just peace. And it’s all about justice. You look backwards, and you ask yourself: In which stage, in which moment, was Israel willing to give up the occupation? Give me one example in which there was a genuine readiness to put an end to the occupation. It was never there. It was all about gaining time and maintaining the status quo. And it’s also now about gaining time and maintaining the status quo—namely, the West Bank occupied, Gaza under siege, peaceful life in Israel. This formula cannot last forever. And I wish I’ll be wrong, but I cannot recall one example in which there was a genuine willingness to put an end to the occupation. This was never. There were all kind of—we had Oslo. We had other peace talks. But it was never there.
And if you want the most ultimate proof for it, it’s the settlements. Nobody is saying we’ll continue to build settlements if he has an intention to return those lands. But Israel never stopped building settlements. And as Israel never stopped building settlements, Israel said to the Palestinians and to the world, "I have no intention to give up this piece of land."
AARON MATÉ: Gideon Levy, you also wrote a recent piece that was called "Israel’s Real Purpose in Gaza Operation? To Kill Arabs." And you write, "Since the first Lebanon war, more than 30 years ago, the killing of Arabs has become Israel’s primary strategic instrument." Can you explain this for us?
GIDEON LEVY: Again, I wish I wouldn’t write those harsh things, but look at reality. All the recent wars or operations in the recent 30 years were finally aimed at civilian populations, with horrifying scenes, with unproportional means, like in those days in Gaza. Finally, a war between Israel and Palestinians, in the recent—and Israel and Lebanon—in the recent 30 years looks always the same: Israelis killing many, many civilians, unproportionally, and the resistance, the Palestinian resistance, is trying to fight back. But, as I wrote in this article, it’s a meeting between an elephant and a fly, in terms of capabilities and equipment. And it always ends up the same, with hundreds and hundreds civilian casualties on the Palestinian or Lebanese side, with, thanks God, many, many fewer or much fewer casualties—and many times not at all—in Israelis’ side. And here we go to the next circle, to the next cycle, to the next confrontation.
AMY GOODMAN: Gideon Levy, you also wrote a piece, "Lowest Deeds from Loftiest Heights," about the Air Force pilots who are bombing Gaza. Can you talk about what you said and the response to this piece?
GIDEON LEVY: This article was published one week ago in the middle of the operation. Israel almost got united in a very aggressive reaction to this article. Things became so bad that I need to be accompanied by a bodyguard those days. Israel is not tolerant in those days and not ready to listen to any kind of criticism.
What I tried to write is that watching at all those horrible scenes in Gaza—and, believe me, there are horrible scenes there, because watching the Israeli TV, you see none, or almost none, but watching international networks, you can see the real tragedy there—someone has to be taken accountable for this. Someone is responsible for this. And I thought that the pilots, who are the best of our sons, the most intelligent ones and the most highly appreciated ones—really, the elite of Israeli society—they take part in this, and they cannot remain out of any kind of responsibility, or at least some kind of moral doubts about what they are doing. Yes, they don’t see their victims: They sit in the cockpit. But I thought they should see and confront their victims, the civilian victims, the whole families which were exterminated in the recent days. And I aimed it to them, and I succeeded, at least, in creating a huge public debate in Israel.
AMY GOODMAN: You said they should resist, that they shouldn’t engage in the bombing?
GIDEON LEVY: I didn’t say so. I just say that in 2003, 27 very courageous pilots did not participate, wrote a letter of refusal and said they don’t want to take part in this. I say that this time there is even not one. I didn’t go further than this. We don’t know yet all the details, but I would expect at least some kind of awareness and public discussion about this issue, because they cannot be above, above discussion or above doubts. Also, pilots can be doubtful.
AMY GOODMAN: You are now traveling with a bodyguard?
GIDEON LEVY: Unfortunately, yes.
AMY GOODMAN: Why?
GIDEON LEVY: Because the level of threats and the atmosphere in the street. And, believe me, I’m quite experienced with threats, but now it’s becoming really unpleasant and maybe dangerous. I don’t know. But too many people warned me that my life is in danger. I don’t know if it’s true. But Ha’aretz, my newspaper, decided not to take risks, and I had to take a bodyguard, yes.
AARON MATÉ: I want to ask about this new Palestinian effort to take Israel to the International Criminal Court. Speaking to ABC News this past weekend, the influential Palestinian legislator and scholar Hanan Ashrawi said the Palestine Liberation Organization has decided to apply to join the International Criminal Court, which could open up war crimes charges against Israel.
HAMISH MACDONALD: You have threatened to bring forward the application, an application for Palestine to join International Criminal Court.
HANAN ASHRAWI: Yes.
HAMISH MACDONALD: Are you doing that?
HANAN ASHRAWI: Yes, we have taken the decision, and we are going to accede to the Rome Statute, which would qualify us to bring cases to the International Criminal Court. But I don’t believe the world has to wait.
AARON MATÉ: Gideon Levy, your reaction? Obviously, the Palestinian Authority has dithered for a long time on joining these international conventions under Israeli and U.S. pressure. Is this a positive sign now that they’re talking about going to the ICC?
GIDEON LEVY: I am one of those who believe that the only way to get out of this vicious circle is by international intervention, because Israel will not change by itself. And the only way is also by making Israel pay a price for the crimes of the occupation. And for this, there must be a wake-up call for the international community, which is rather passive—and especially so, the American administration, the administration of the United States, who could do—who could have done so much more and is doing so little, so little. So any kind of step toward this direction, hopefully, will be a wake-up call for Israel, first of all, and for the international community.
AMY GOODMAN: We have just lost Gideon Levy at the studio in Tel Aviv. We thank him for being with us, the Ha’aretz columnist, member of the newspaper’s editorial board, author of The Punishment of Gaza. And, Nathan Thrall, we want to thank you for being with us, senior analyst at the International Crisis Group, covering Gaza, Israel, Jordan and the West Bank. We will link to your op-ed piece in The New York Times headlined "How the West Chose War in Gaza." This is Democracy Now! When we come back, we’ll talk about the numbers of Palestinian refugees, of the displaced, over 100,000. We’ll go to a spokesperson for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees, known as UNRWA. Stay with us.
AARON MATÉ: Gideon Levy, your reaction? Obviously, the Palestinian Authority has dithered for a long time on joining these international conventions under Israeli and U.S. pressure. Is this a positive sign now that they’re talking about going to the ICC?
GIDEON LEVY: I am one of those who believe that the only way to get out of this vicious circle is by international intervention, because Israel will not change by itself. And the only way is also by making Israel pay a price for the crimes of the occupation. And for this, there must be a wake-up call for the international community, which is rather passive—and especially so, the American administration, the administration of the United States, who could do—who could have done so much more and is doing so little, so little. So any kind of step toward this direction, hopefully, will be a wake-up call for Israel, first of all, and for the international community.
AMY GOODMAN: We have just lost Gideon Levy at the studio in Tel Aviv. We thank him for being with us, the Ha’aretz columnist, member of the newspaper’s editorial board, author of The Punishment of Gaza. And, Nathan Thrall, we want to thank you for being with us, senior analyst at the International Crisis Group, covering Gaza, Israel, Jordan and the West Bank. We will link to your op-ed piece in The New York Times headlined "How the West Chose War in Gaza." This is Democracy Now! When we come back, we’ll talk about the numbers of Palestinian refugees, of the displaced, over 100,000. We’ll go to a spokesperson for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees, known as UNRWA. Stay with us.
No what I said, the Palestinians want to live in Palestine. Simple really
They don't want to live in a cage
I suppose this idea to create Israel as a modern state was actualized back when controlling the middle east didn't seem all that difficult for the world's major powers.
Of course, once the Jewish communities began it was too late to go back, they weren't going to leave and neither were those who were there before 1945.
Of course, once the Jewish communities began it was too late to go back, they weren't going to leave and neither were those who were there before 1945.
So what's the strategy? Do this for the next 100 years, fire rockets and get bombed into oblivion as a response? What's the plan?
To get world powers to make Israel negotiate meaningfully.
Everytime Israel does this it looses support, evetually the seige will be lifted
Who is going to force them to lift the blockade ? Also, what makes you think Israel won't full on invade Gaza and get rid of Hamas.
So, deliberately provoke Israel into slaughtering thousands and thousands more of your people in the hope that the rest of the world eventually intervenes? Pretty cold and self defeating strategy, not to mention unrealistic.
The other nations of the world, it will first be a peoples movement and then the politicians will follow suit, in the same manner that the South African aparthied was ended
If they get rid of Hamas another party will rise demanding the same, it is the Palestinian people that want an end to the seige and occupation, not Hamas
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Israel is not provoked into action, this war did not start becuase of the rocket attacks. The only way Israel wins is if they force the Palestinians into accepting aparthied, this is why Israel bombs and kills the Palestinians, to break their will
Unfortunately, the Palestinian people seem a bit fractured. For example, the Palestinian security apparatus in the West Bank cooperate with the same Israel who are invading Gaza. Until Palestinians are united and fully reject violence, the stalemate will continue.
The Palestinian factions recently reconciled, they are united in demanding an ends to the seige. This war is an attempt to blow that reconciliation apart
It's actually to stop rockets from being fired at Israelis. Hamas has miscalculated as usual, and will wind up paying the price, but not nearly as much as innocent Palestinians. A few months from now we will find that nothing has changed, and that hundreds of people lost their lives for nothing.
OK. Wasn't gonna be tempted, but "to stop rockets"? Really. All this effort to stop rockets? The only thing that is happening apart from the murders and misery is of course much more anger and bitterness, and the condemnation of many nations' populations though elected officials toe the line.
I just popped in here to see if this had been posted:
BBC
Pro-Palestinian protesters have disrupted a football match in Austria between the Israeli club, Maccabi Haifa, and French team, Lille.
The game - a pre-season friendly in the town of Bischofshofen - was interrupted when protesters waving Palestinian flags stormed the pitch, police said.
The police said no one was hurt in the incident, close to the final whistle.
--
This could happen a lot after this, as Israel has to play all their games vs. European teams in Europe, due to the state of Palestine/Israel.
Just reading through this thread tells you why there will never be peace in the middle east....
That's why nothing will change. Short of sufficient pressure from the US, Israel won't back down until they have achieved their goals, which appear to involve crippling Hamas' ability to use tunnels to get more rockets.
You are mistaken. India doesn't pick sides
there's a reason why India has good relations with usa & russia and iran and israel.Voting on such things is not stand alone topic basis, proper nations have a long term policy.
This event will not stop rockets being fired, just as every other Gaza war has failed to do so will this
You are mistaken. India doesn't pick sides
Voting on such things is not stand alone topic basis, proper nations have a long term policy.
Yup yup. I agree. India doesn't pick sides and rightly so. Unless it affects that particular Country, no other Country should be intervening unless specifically requested. I too on second thought, thought that by saying 'yes' they are actually not choosing sides because with all EU abstaining, it would have come out as actually support for one side had they abstained.
Last time I checked Gaza was part of that territory previously called by the British, and the Romans, Palestine. So is the WB and in fact "Jordan". No excuse for the Arabs to still leave their population in refugee camps there. And have their own UN aid agency.
Do you reckon it would be interesting to hear Wafa Sultan's take on the conflict, or that of Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of a prominent Hamas leader?
Gideon Levy is an attention-seeking excuse for a journalist, and is not taken seriously even by left-wing Israelis.
And here's me thinking murdering Jews in a Brussles museum or a Toulouse Jewish primary school is far more disturbing than interfering with a football match, and those happened prior to this Gaza campaign. Oh well, this is a football forum after all so I'll get my priorities right.
http://www.israelvideonetwork.com/the-most-important-video-about-israel-ever-made
Saw this video. Can anyone explain how accurate it is??
Saw this video. Can anyone explain how accurate it is??
Factually sound.
Just part of the territory called Palestine. Othes will want to return to their homes in Israel
Israel Video NetworK?