Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

It's a great speech if your an Israeli. I said before Abbas is a stooge and he has lived up to his billing.

You are totally wrong here.

You actually represent the POV of extremists on both sides that see this conflict as a zero-sum game. It's a poor speech on so many levels, particularly as it highlights the lack of real hope in this for future generations.
 
Both Israelis' and Palestinians have been indoctrinating and poisoning their kids with hatred for many generations. They have sown the seeds of animosity, and due to this will continue to pay a heavy price until they both change their mind-set quick time.

Care to elaborate?
 
What would you target instead?

IDF/Military installations/state apparatus.

Palestinians and the Arabs have been at war with Israel since it was created, and I know war isn't clean but fighting for a just cause by unjust means, certainly lowers them in my estimation.

Not that I am of any great importance, but my parents are from Bangladesh and I've heard many a tale from my father and grandfather about the oppression they faced under Pakistani rule, so fighting for your right to exist is legitimate in my eyes(which is also why I don't shed tears when the IDF carries out attacks against Hamas or the various other Palestinian groups, the Israelis too have a right to protect themselves and their families.)

I don't believe that the end justifies the means.
 
Hmmm.... Whilst I respect your own opinion I can't agree with it.

Frustration doesn't give anybody the right to strap Semtex to themselves (or encourage others to do the same) and murder innocent people for their cause.

Here is a question for Holyland. If all of a sudden (in a hypothetical sense) the Palestinian people adopted a Gandhi/Luther King method of non-violent protests and a total end to terrorist attacks do you think the Israeli Government would be more open to Palestinian state talks?


Israel defeated terrorism, so Ghandis are not required here. As long as the Palestinians do not recognize my people's right for self determination I don't think there's much to talk about other than security and municipal issues.
 
As with almost all of the Arab world Palestinians have had to contend with bad and corrupt leaders over the last 60 years. They need to look at the present, rather than going all menstrual about history. Israel exists full stop. Move on! recognise them however they wish - then let's see what Israel has to offer.
 
As with almost all of the Arab world Palestinians have had to contend with bad and corrupt leaders over the last 60 years. They need to look at the present, rather than going all menstrual about history. Israel exists full stop. Move on! recognise them however they wish - then let's see what Israel has to offer.

Israel has to offer?

I believe that direct negotiations between Israel and Jordan be undertaken to return the status quo of the West Bank and East Jerusalem to that which existed at 5 June 1967 - as far as is now possible given the lapse of 44 years and the events that have since occurred - and that sovereignty of the West Bank be allocated between Israel and Jordan accordingly.

Jordan occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem between 1948-1967 and the world did not fall in.

The attempt to create a new Arab state between Israel and Jordan - where none ever existed in recorded history - has failed after 17 years of abysmal efforts to achieve that solution.

Jordan will not readily agree to such negotiations. There will need to be international pressure to bring Jordan to the negotiating table.

The Hashemite regime has done more for the Palestinian Arabs than any other Arab politician or Arab state having secured 78% of Mandated Palestine as an exclusively Arab state.

Offering it the opportunity of acquiring another 3-4% should not be missed.
Two peoples - the Jews and the Arabs - need two States not three in former Palestine.
 
So this is a valid and justified excuse to murder and maim innocent civilians?

Do you place the blame for this solely with Israel and its past/present policies?

of course not.

all I was stating is we need to understand what those people must be going through.

I do not support violence. it never ends.

but to simply moralise is not going to solve anything.
 
I'm serious. In the PR battle, how much better does this come across, instead of having to listen to poor translators trying to convey emotion.

No, I absolutely agree with you. Plus, as HR mentioned, some stuff can get lost in translation.
 
Israel has to offer?

I believe that direct negotiations between Israel and Jordan be undertaken to return the status quo of the West Bank and East Jerusalem to that which existed at 5 June 1967 - as far as is now possible given the lapse of 44 years and the events that have since occurred - and that sovereignty of the West Bank be allocated between Israel and Jordan accordingly.

Jordan occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem between 1948-1967 and the world did not fall in.

The attempt to create a new Arab state between Israel and Jordan - where none ever existed in recorded history - has failed after 17 years of abysmal efforts to achieve that solution.

Jordan will not readily agree to such negotiations. There will need to be international pressure to bring Jordan to the negotiating table.

The Hashemite regime has done more for the Palestinian Arabs than any other Arab politician or Arab state having secured 78% of Mandated Palestine as an exclusively Arab state.

Offering it the opportunity of acquiring another 3-4% should not be missed.
Two peoples - the Jews and the Arabs - need two States not three in former Palestine.

:smirk:
 
"... People from Queens and Brooklyn are considerably nicer than some of Israel's neighbours." :lol:
 
You are totally wrong here.

You actually represent the POV of extremists on both sides that see this conflict as a zero-sum game. It's a poor speech on so many levels, particularly as it highlights the lack of real hope in this for future generations.

Laughable.

There is no hpoe for peace - there never will be. The Israelis do not need a settlement - they gain far more from the current situation.
 
Abbas played the comic book villain and Bibi the face of moderation - you couldn't have scripted it better.

Slam dunk for Israel.
 
Netanyahu must be applauded for his speech. Lets hope those words bring about some real progress.
 
Bill Clinton: Netanyahu killed the peace process



Who's to blame for the continued failure of the Middle East peace process? Former President Bill Clinton said today that it is Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu -- whose government moved the goalposts upon taking power, and whose rise represents a key reason there has been no Israeli-Palestinian peace deal.

Clinton, in a roundtable with bloggers today on the sidelines of the Clinton Global Initiative in New York, gave an extensive recounting of the deterioration in the Middle East peace process since he pressed both parties to agree to a final settlement at Camp David in 2000. He said there are two main reasons for the lack of a comprehensive peace today: the reluctance of the Netanyahu administration to accept the terms of the Camp David deal and a demographic shift in Israel that is making the Israeli public less amenable to peace.

"The two great tragedies in modern Middle Eastern politics, which make you wonder if God wants Middle East peace or not, were [Yitzhak] Rabin's assassination and [Ariel] Sharon's stroke," Clinton said.

Sharon had decided he needed to build a new centrist coalition, so he created the Kadima party and gained the support of leaders like Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert. He was working toward a consensus for a peace deal before he fell ill, Clinton said. But that effort was scuttled when the Likud party returned to power.

"The Israelis always wanted two things that once it turned out they had, it didn't seem so appealing to Mr. Netanyahu. They wanted to believe they had a partner for peace in a Palestinian government, and there's no question -- and the Netanyahu government has said -- that this is the finest Palestinian government they've ever had in the West Bank," Clinton said.

"[Palestinian leaders] have explicitly said on more than one occasion that if [Netanyahu] put up the deal that was offered to them before -- my deal -- that they would take it," Clinton said, referring to the 2000 Camp David deal that Yasser Arafat rejected.

But the Israeli government has drifted a long way from the Ehud Barak-led government that came so close to peace in 2000, Clinton said, and any new negotiations with the Netanyahu government are now on starkly different terms -- terms that the Palestinians are unlikely to accept.

"For reasons that even after all these years I still don't know for sure, Arafat turned down the deal I put together that Barak accepted," he said. "But they also had an Israeli government that was willing to give them East Jerusalem as the capital of the new state of Palestine."

Israel also wants a normalization of relations with its Arab neighbors to accompany a peace deal. Clinton said that the Saudi-inspired Arab Peace Initiative put forth in 2002 represented an answer to that Israeli demand.

"The King of Saudi Arabia started lining up all the Arab countries to say to the Israelis, ‘if you work it out with the Palestinians ... we will give you immediately not only recognition but a political, economic, and security partnership,'" Clinton said. "This is huge.... It's a heck of a deal."

The Netanyahu government has received all of the assurances previous Israeli governments said they wanted but now won't accept those terms to make peace, Clinton said.

"Now that they have those things, they don't seem so important to this current Israeli government, partly because it's a different country," said Clinton. "In the interim, you've had all these immigrants coming in from the former Soviet Union, and they have no history in Israel proper, so the traditional claims of the Palestinians have less weight with them."

Clinton then repeated his assertions made at last year's conference that Israeli society can be divided into demographic groups that have various levels of enthusiasm for making peace.

"The most pro-peace Israelis are the Arabs; second the Sabras, the Jewish Israelis that were born there; third, the Ashkenazi of long-standing, the European Jews who came there around the time of Israel's founding," Clinton said. "The most anti-peace are the ultra-religious, who believe they're supposed to keep Judea and Samaria, and the settler groups, and what you might call the territorialists, the people who just showed up lately and they're not encumbered by the historical record."

Clinton affirmed that the United States should veto the Palestinian resolution at the U.N. Security Council for member-state status, because the Israelis need security guarantees before agreeing to the creation of a Palestinian state. But the Netanyahu government has moved away from the consensus for peace, making a final status agreement more difficult, Clinton said.

"That's what happened. Every American needs to know this. That's how we got to where we are," Clinton said. "The real cynics believe that the Netanyahu's government's continued call for negotiations over borders and such means that he's just not going to give up the West Bank."

Clinton....
 
I've just come back from watching the Abbas speech on a big screen at the Duwar in the centre of Nablus. The optimism and enthusiasm was in notable juxtaposition to the cold realpolitik most people have been talking about here in recent weeks, even at the big "rallies" (which in reality were just PA sponsored parties, kids were let out of school early all throughout the West Bank and people encouraged to leave work to attend).

It's this optimism that scares me, to be honest. Whether they supported the bid or not, most Palestinians have been talking about the lack of real change any UN recognition could bring, even without the veto issue, but there seemed to be a different atmosphere tonight. I hope this doesn't turn to frustration over the coming months.
 
I've just come back from watching the Abbas speech on a big screen at the Duwar in the centre of Nablus. The optimism and enthusiasm was in notable juxtaposition to the cold realpolitik most people have been talking about here in recent weeks, even at the big "rallies" (which in reality were just PA sponsored parties, kids were let out of school early all throughout the West Bank and people encouraged to leave work to attend).

It's this optimism that scares me, to be honest. Whether they supported the bid or not, most Palestinians have been talking about the lack of real change any UN recognition could bring, even without the veto issue, but there seemed to be a different atmosphere tonight. I hope this doesn't turn to frustration over the coming months.

Were there any major clashes where you are between Palestinians and the Israeli settlers? A chap's between shot dead in Qusra.
 
Were there any major clashes where you are between Palestinians and the Israeli settlers? A chap's between shot dead in Qusra.

Yeah there was a lot of talk of the violence in Qusra earlier today. Settlers rarely come into Nablus proper (as in the city, the Nablus governate includes a lot of villages and settlements that have seen horrendous levels of violence recently). Though a colleague of mine did take a photograph of a football pitch (I say pitch, patch of dirt with two goals at the end) on the way into Askar refugee camp where my organisation runs a couple of projects, that settlers had trashed last night. They left a bunch of tires behind though, I'm thinking of heading over there tomorrow and showing the kids how to strap the tyres the goal frame to practice free kicks!
 
Yeah there was a lot of talk of the violence in Qusra earlier today. Settlers rarely come into Nablus proper (as in the city, the Nablus governate includes a lot of villages and settlements that have seen horrendous levels of violence recently). Though a colleague of mine did take a photograph of a football pitch (I say pitch, patch of dirt with two goals at the end) on the way into Askar refugee camp where my organisation runs a couple of projects, that settlers had trashed last night. They left a bunch of tires behind though, I'm thinking of heading over there tomorrow and showing the kids how to strap the tyres the goal frame to practice free kicks!

:lol:

Are you with Project Hope btw?