Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Raoul said:
Let's be realists here Sults. There is only one way to go about achieving the the sustainable end state of two states, that that's by direct negotiations between both parties. Statehood, without Israeli participation in the process and without the support of the world's superpower would seem unsustainable. Its merely a half-thought out way to use the mechanism of the UN to unconstructively delegitimize Israel, which would set any hope for direct negotiations back several steps. The only way things will improve is with the buy in of all parties involved. Everything else (much like the flotilla fiasco), is not going to work.
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Rubbish. This has gone on long enough - Israel does not need to cut a fair deal all the cards are in their hands.

Simple fact is the longer this goes on the smaller the settlement that the Palestinians will get. Give it another 30 years of this and there will be no state of Palestine.
 
Sultan said:
Mr Abbas's spokesman, Nabil Abu Rudeina, said after Mr Obama's speech: "The end of the Israeli occupation and a Palestinian state are the only path to peace.

"We will agree to return to the negotiations the minute that Israel agrees to end the settlements and the lines of 1967."

How is agreeing to end the settlements along the lines of 1967 denying Israel a state? Is that not a clear declaration of accepting Israel as a neighbour?
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Are you (and Mr. Rudeina) for real? Are you suggesting a retreat to the 1967 lines so the Palestinians finally agree to negotiate? How different is that from Israel agreeing to negotiate when Arab settlements in pre-1967 Israel end too? The Palestinians negotiated with Olmert when settlement activity was rife, and ignored Netanyahu despite the settlement freezing. They know he's portrayed as radical and stubborn, and with the help of a certain Mr. Obama took the path of unilateral measures. He's practically made a U-turn, and i hope theirs isn't too late (although I fear it's too late for them to follow suit).

The Palestinians are not denying Israel a state, but deny it's right to exist as a Jewish homeland. Listen to Mr. Sha'ath if you haven't grasped the difference. It will take less than 1 minute of your time.
 
Commadus said:
Rubbish. This has gone on long enough - Israel does not need to cut a fair deal all the cards are in their hands.

Simple fact is the longer this goes on the smaller the settlement that the Palestinians will get. Give it another 30 years of this and there will be no state of Palestine.
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Agreed. With the status quo as it is - unequivocal US support, and gradual settlement growth on the ground, there's no incentive for the blind Israeli right to concede anything. At least this move is something, it shakes the pieces up a bit.
 
Commadus said:
Rubbish. This has gone on long enough - Israel does not need to cut a fair deal all the cards are in their hands.

Simple fact is the longer this goes on the smaller the settlement that the Palestinians will get. Give it another 30 years of this and there will be no state of Palestine.
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Wrong- time is on the Arab's hands, and a two-state solution is very much an Israeli interest. Gone are the days of nations being driven away en masse, and any delays would lead to a scenario where Arabs become a majority west of the River Jordan. Then they would not need or want a two-state solution, which I'm not sure is what they're after anyway.
 
holyland red said:
Wrong- time is on the Arab's hands, and a two-state solution is very much an Israeli interest. Gone are the days of nations being driven away en masse, and any delays would lead to a scenario where Arabs become a majority west of the River Jordan. Then they would not need or want a two-state solution, which I'm not sure is what they're after anyway.
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Which is why the Likud are so blind.
 
Commadus said:
Rubbish. This has gone on long enough - Israel does not need to cut a fair deal all the cards are in their hands.

Simple fact is the longer this goes on the smaller the settlement that the Palestinians will get. Give it another 30 years of this and there will be no state of Palestine.
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You've made the assessment that they don't, but in reality they do. Its in their best interests as well as in the interests of all parties to have a long term solution that both sides can live with.
 
Plechazunga said:
Which is why the Likud are so blind.
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"Likud" is a substantial chunk of the Israeli society. I voted Likud. I want a two-state solution which guarantees that Jews have a safe homeland exisiting in peace with its neighbours. So far the Palestinians have made public their objection to the idea which makes handing them a neighbouring state a complete madness.

We all know that a status-quo would lead to a disaster, but is that a good enough reason to speculate on our future even further?
 
The whole situation is just crazy, perpetuated by injustice, violence, settlements, human rights issues and political agendas.

Why is Israel still the biggest recipient of US military aid funding? Why won't the US go against Israel in any form? Because its political suicide to do so and because Israel is one of the biggest purchasers of US military equipment, using the funding the US provides.

What baffles me is that to the Israeli government it is always the other side that is in the wrong, this comes from decades of political rhetoric and indoctrination if you will. Yes they have a right to defend themselves, but do they have a right to treat the Palestinians as worse than second class citizens? Arab communities within Israel are surrounded by cctv cameras, to quote Israeli High Court Justice (Ret.) Theodor Or: "The Arab citizens of Israel live in a reality in which they experience discrimination as Arabs. This inequality has been documented in a large number of professional surveys and studies, has been confirmed in court judgments and government resolutions, and has also found expression in reports by the state comptroller and in other official documents. Although the Jewish majority’s awareness of this discrimination is often quite low, it plays a central role in the sensibilities and attitudes of Arab citizens. This discrimination is widely accepted, both within the Arab sector and outside it, and by official assessments, as a chief cause of agitation."

What I don't understand is how the world cannot see that what the Israeli's are doing to the the Palestinians is reminiscent of Germany prior to the second world war under the Nazi party! Yes there is thankfully no holocaust today, but prior to that happening in WW2 the Germans took the Jews and rounded them up and forced them to live in walled up in confined highly regulated areas in squalid conditions, with any Jew attempting to leave this area being shot.

Yet today we have the the West Bank surrounded by a giant wall with checkpoints, military guards in specially made towers to oversee the area, with Palestinians living in poor conditions. So tell me how this is not a massive human rights issue with similarities to the ghettos of Nazi Germany?

How can the Israeli's not see that to treat an entire population like this only breeds hate.

Now before you all call me anti-Semitic and what not, my family happens to be Jewish.
 
onlyoneunited said:
Now before you all call me anti-Semitic and what not, my family happens to be Jewish.
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So were the kapos, only that we can not judge them because of the most extraordinary circumstances they found themselves in.

I doubt you are anti-semitic, but if you compare the WB or indeed the life of Israeli Arabs to 1930's Nazi Germany you are a fool.
 
onlyoneunited said:
What I don't understand is how the world cannot see that what the Israeli's are doing to the the Palestinians is reminiscent of Germany prior to the second world war under the Nazi party! Yes there is thankfully no holocaust today, but prior to that happening in WW2 the Germans took the Jews and rounded them up and forced them to live in walled up in confined highly regulated areas in squalid conditions, with any Jew attempting to leave this area being shot.

Yet today we have the the West Bank surrounded by a giant wall with checkpoints, military guards in specially made towers to oversee the area, with Palestinians living in poor conditions. So tell me how this is not a massive human rights issue with similarities to the ghettos of Nazi Germany?
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Er, one reason it's not a very good comparison is that Arab Israelis, discriminated against though they often are, have more rights and a better standard of living than most of their brethren in the surrounding Arab countries.

Another difference is that the Jewish political leadership in Germany didn't keep blowing shit up, which is why the security apparatus is there. Before terrorists started walking into discos and blowing themselves up, there was no wall.

Now before you all call me anti-Semitic and what not, my family happens to be Jewish.
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I'm not calling you anything, but, just so you know, that's a non-argument. There are Jewish anti-Semites, just as there are Englishmen who hate the English, etc.

17.jpg
bobby-fischer.jpg


otto-weininger.jpg
.......
300px-Pablo_de_Santa_Maria.jpg

Otto Weininger: gay, Jewish homophobe......Pablo of Burgos: converted to Christianity, wrote
and anti-Semite. Killed himself at 23, .........anti-Jewish screeds, eventually became archbishop
in huge surprise to everyone.............................but could do nothing about that nose.
 
It's not really Likud that's the problem is it? It's YB and Shas. Netanyahu could probably find some political cover to make some concessions without them breathing down his neck.
 
Raoul said:
You've made the assessment that they don't, but in reality they do. Its in their best interests as well as in the interests of all parties to have a long term solution that both sides can live with.
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Nope isn't 50 year long enough to have done something? Why not add another 50.

I don't see any conclusion to this other than more of the same.
 
spinoza said:
It's not really Likud that's the problem is it? It's YB and Shas. Netanyahu could probably find some political cover to make some concessions without them breathing down his neck.
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If there was any chance for a viable peace agreement with the Palestinians Likud, Labor and Kadima could see it through, most probably with Shas joing a coalition. Shas is pragmatic in the sense that they'll support any foreign policy as long as their financial demands are met.
 
Plechazunga said:
300px-Pablo_de_Santa_Maria.jpg

Pablo of Burgos: converted to Christianity, wrote anti-Jewish screeds, eventually became archbishop in huge surprise to everyone but could do nothing about that nose.
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Which reminds me that I always wondered whether Ally Brazil was Jewish
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God damn, that was a tough post to quote.
 
holyland red said:
Are you (and Mr. Rudeina) for real? Are you suggesting a retreat to the 1967 lines so the Palestinians finally agree to negotiate? How different is that from Israel agreeing to negotiate when Arab settlements in pre-1967 Israel end too? The Palestinians negotiated with Olmert when settlement activity was rife, and ignored Netanyahu despite the settlement freezing. They know he's portrayed as radical and stubborn, and with the help of a certain Mr. Obama took the path of unilateral measures. He's practically made a U-turn, and i hope theirs isn't too late (although I fear it's too late for them to follow suit).

The Palestinians are not denying Israel a state, but deny it's right to exist as a Jewish homeland. Listen to Mr. Sha'ath if you haven't grasped the difference. It will take less than 1 minute of your time.
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And the Jews deserve their own homeland then? Care to expand?
 
Stretch said:
And the Jews deserve their own homeland then? Care to expand?
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The Arab homeland encompasses 15 countries and stretches over pretty much two million square miles. Surely there's enough space left for a tiny Jewish one?
 
Mihajlovic said:
The Arab homeland encompasses 15 countries and stretches over pretty much two million square miles. Surely there's enough space left for a tiny Jewish one?
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I wonder if you'd be so kind as to give up some of your country despite having a lot of spare land? I thought not! The Palestinians are not asking for was is not their own. In fact if anything they're asking the Israelis' not to steal more of their land.
 
Sultan said:
I wonder if you'd be so kind as to give up some of your country despite having a lot of spare land? I thought not! The Palestinians are not asking for was is not their own. In fact if anything they're asking the Israelis' not to steal more of their land.
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My country is so small it fits 25 times into Saudi Arabia alone. Not much spare land left I'm afraid.

My point still stands. Although I support the pragmatic two-state solution, at the moment I honestly cannot see the point of creating yet another failed state (joining the likes of Kosovo and Somalia) with a government that doesn't even control half of its territory (Gaza).
 
Mihajlovic said:
The Arab homeland encompasses 15 countries and stretches over pretty much two million square miles. Surely there's enough space left for a tiny Jewish one?
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Yes, but my problem is, do you want a Jewish state or an Israeli state? I've no problem with the 2 states solution, I prefer that but I'm tired of this 'entitlement' vibes that are sent from Israel. Have your land, give the Palestinians theirs.
 
Stretch said:
Yes, but my problem is, do you want a Jewish state or an Israeli state? I've no problem with the 2 states solution, I prefer that but I'm tired of this 'entitlement' vibes that are sent from Israel. Have your land, give the Palestinians theirs.
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I'm not Jewish so I cannot speak for them. But I know if I were, I'd want a Jewish state. By this I mean I'd want to live in a country in which the majority of the population would maintain to be Jewish and not Arabic.

I don't think many Arabs would think differently and would not prefer to live in a country in which they make up the majority.
 
Sultan said:
I wonder if you'd be so kind as to give up some of your country despite having a lot of spare land? I thought not! The Palestinians are not asking for was is not their own. In fact if anything they're asking the Israelis' not to steal more of their land.
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The Arabs, including the mob calling themselves Palestinians, have their land in Arabia.

The land of Israel and Jerusalem have belonged to the Jewish people long before Arabs decided they had enough of worshiping the sun.
 
Stretch said:
Yes, but my problem is, do you want a Jewish state or an Israeli state? I've no problem with the 2 states solution, I prefer that but I'm tired of this 'entitlement' vibes that are sent from Israel. Have your land, give the Palestinians theirs.
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Why care whether Israel is Jewish or not? I heard living behind electric fences, armed robberies in traffic lights and mutilation on a daily basis is the new freedom.
 
holyland red said:
The Arabs, including the mob calling themselves Palestinians, have their land in Arabia.

The land of Israel and Jerusalem have belonged to the Jewish people long before Arabs decided they had enough of worshiping the sun.
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Classy.
 
Sultan said:
More class
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Hence me asking him to elaborate. Won't ever agree with him though or see eye to eye. I see things from the oppressed view (having been in that position before) against his views which are all from the oppressor view (sorry if you don't feel that way holylandred but your posts suggest this).
 
Stretch said:
Hence me asking him to elaborate. Won't ever agree with him though or see eye to eye. I see things from the oppressed view (having been in that position before) against his views which are all from the oppressor view (sorry if you don't feel that way holylandred but your posts suggest this).
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Should there ever be ANOTHER Palestinian state I'll wager a bet with you on how many Israeli Arabs up sticks and flock to it.

I'm betting zero.
 
Fearless said:
Should there ever be ANOTHER Palestinian state I'll wager a bet with you on how many Israeli Arabs up sticks and flock to it.

I'm betting zero.
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To be fair, I'd have to agree.

However, doesn't mean we cannot try and improve the life of those already residing in the West Bank, and Gaza.
 
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