Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[hasanejaz88]

As a Greek, what I know very well is that this area had Greeks, Armenians, Catholics, etc ... but never had "Palestinian Christians". It is absolutely meaningless to talk about "Palestinian Christians", it means nothing. Catholics and Orthodox never had the same churches in that area, never had anything much in common, and none of them identified as "Palestinian Christian".

Now, the Greeks in Middle East have had many more problems from persecution from various muslim fractions than from the jews. Do you know anything about the problems that Greeks faced in Middle East?

A prominent journalist killed last year by the Israeli army, that caused a lot of uproar in Palestine, and whose funeral was denigrated by this those same Israeli forces, was Christian. You utter utter blank.

My people faced persecution from Muslims, so feck all Muslims, am I right?
I'm sure if any Palestinian says the same about Jews they'll be labelled, rightfully, an Anti-Semite. Do you agree you're an Islamophobe?

 

[Carolina Red]

what I know very well is that this area had Greeks, Armenians, Catholics, etc ... but never had "Palestinian Christians". It is absolutely meaningless to talk about "Palestinian Christians", it means nothing.

Considering Herodotus called the region between Phoenicia and Egypt, “Palaistine”, in the 5th Century BCE, the argument could be made from the Greek perspective that Jesus Christ himself, and his Apostles, were Palestinian.

I say that to point out that I don’t think you’ve any clue what you’re talking about.

 

[The Corinthian]

As a Greek, what I know very well is that this area had Greeks, Armenians, Catholics, etc ... but never had "Palestinian Christians". It is absolutely meaningless to talk about "Palestinian Christians", it means nothing. Catholics and Orthodox never had the same churches in that area, never had anything much in common, and none of them identified as "Palestinian Christian".

Now, the Greeks in Middle East have had many more problems from persecution from various muslim fractions than from the jews. Do you know anything about the problems that Greeks faced in Middle East?

So you’ve avoided answering any of my questions and instead are parroting some ignorant based nonsense. As @Bosnian_fan said, there’s no point engaging with you so I’ll just put you on ignore.

 

[frostbite]

Considering Herodotus called the region between Phoenicia and Egypt, “Palaistine”, in the 5th Century BCE, the argument could be made from the Greek perspective that Jesus Christ himself, and his Apostles, were Palestinian.

I say that to point out that I don’t think you’ve any clue what you’re talking about.

In the Palestine geographical region, Greeks identified as Greeks and Armenians identified as Armenians, none of them identified as "Palestinian Christians".

 

[Carolina Red]

In the Palestine geographical region, Greeks identified as Greeks and Armenians identified as Armenians, none of them identified as "Palestinian Christians".

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I’ve said.

Palestinian Christians exist, and have existed, since the advent of Christianity. Palestinians were literally the first Christians.

 

[owlo]

Considering Herodotus called the region between Phoenicia and Egypt, “Palaistine”, in the 5th Century BCE, the argument could be made from the Greek perspective that Jesus Christ himself, and his Apostles, were Palestinian.

I say that to point out that I don’t think you’ve any clue what you’re talking about.

That's a horrible misrepresentation of history.

 

[Carolina Red]

That's a horrible misrepresentation of history.

I guess you’re right. The first Christians weren’t from Palestine. They were from… well shit, no, that’s Palestine.

 

[owlo]

I guess you’re right. The first Christians weren’t from Palestine. They were from… well shit, no, that’s Palestine.

Insofar as Herodotus is concerned:

You could just as well say "The first Christians weren’t from Israel. They were from… well shit, no, that’s Israel." "the argument could be made from the Greek perspective that Jesus Christ himself, and his Apostles, were Israeli"

 

[Carolina Red]

Insofar as Herodotus is concerned:

You could just as well say "The first Christians weren’t from Israel. They were from… well shit, no, that’s Israel." "the argument could be made from the Greek perspective that Jesus Christ himself, and his Apostles, were Israeli"

You have well and truly missed the entire point of my post to frostbite.

 

[owlo]

You have well and truly missed the entire point of my post to frostbite.

That being that 'The Palestinian' is an ancient construct not a modern one, and that Herodotus supports that theory? And therefore, Christians are indeed Palestinians.

 

[Carolina Red]

That being that 'The Palestinian' is an ancient construct not a modern one, and that Herodotus supports that theory? And therefore, Christians are indeed Palestinians.

That Palestinian Christians have existed since the creation of Christianity.

“As a Greek, what I know very well is that this area had Greeks, Armenians, Catholics, etc ... but never had "Palestinian Christians"’
^^ that is patently false

 

[owlo]

That Palestinian Christians have existed since the creation of Christianity.

Regardless of the veracity of that statement, it would have nothing to do with Herodotus, who did not talk about Palestinian people, and whose words you could easily translate from Greek as 'Hebrew.'

When was the first time 'Palestine' or 'Palestinian' became an endonym? That question is far more relevant to your claim, and I suspect the answer would be far far later. (late 19th, early 20th century as a guess.) As an example, 'Aztecatl' was used by the Aztecs to group people from Aztlan far before Cortez arrived. (not a real place, but umbrella for their culture)

If Palestinians did not exist as an endonym in 0 BCE, then it logically follows that Palestinian Christians did not exist in that period.

 

[Carolina Red]

Regardless of the veracity of that statement, it would have nothing to do with Herodotus

Dude, I used Herodotus solely because he started his statement about Palestinian Christians not existing with “As a Greek…”

 

[Carolina Red]

And as for it as an endonym, the Egyptians and Assyrians were calling it early forms of Palestine long before Herodotus, and the Romans were calling it Palestine in the 2nd century CE.

 

[owlo]

Dude, I used Herodotus solely because he started his statement about Palestinian Christians not existing with “As a Greek…”

Fair, though I'd argue the 'Palestinians' did not exist then. (ps. Obviously has nothing to do with modern geopolitics/the state of Israel today)

And as for it as an endonym, the Egyptians and Assyrians were calling it early forms of Palestine long before Herodotus, and the Romans were calling it Palestine in the 2nd century CE.

An endonym is an internal identifier, something a group use to identify themselves. Like 'Jews' or 'Saxons' or 'Anglos' - Brittania is an interesting one, but to my knowledge there was no identfier for Palestinians until far later.

Assyrians were interesting: Whether you believe in the existence of the first jewish temple or solomon or not (I generally believe neither were really accurate but that's another irrelevance - temple denial was (is?) often classed as antisemitism apparently @2cents ?) but their idea of 'Palestine' was not in keeping with modern geography. For example, Damascus was considered 'Palestine' and modern Israel was Judah I think. The 'Palestine' that the Assyrians conquered was mainly Syria, though later on they took Samaria too. [There's interesting stuff about the chariots there, which may be where the myths in the bible came about Solomons chariots - but in actuality the horses were Nubian so later] ps. Nubia and Judah were kind of allies, so not sure where your Egyptian references come from. Later perhaps? Or the North in Syria?

You can't really use these ancient definitions though without running into geographical issues. For example, do Syrians exist, or would they actually be Palestinians? It's not really meaningful in my opinion to describe ancient 'Palestine' - It's also completely inconsequential to the current conflict.

tldr: 'Palestine' had nothing to do with 'Palestinians.'

 

[AlPistacho]

I guess you’re right. The first Christians weren’t from Palestine. They were from… well shit, no, that’s Palestine.

Well having seen statues of Jesus my guess is that the first Christians were from Scandinavia

 

[Gehrman]

How can you possibly divorce religion from this, especially at this time of year? Right now couldn't make that point more clear. It all distills down to three different religions having one of their holiest sites on the same land as you say, but the main differentiator / agitator IS religion. To not get down to the essential issue is to be completely disingenuous to the actual problem at hand.

Ive yet see Tibetans blow up chinese cafes or supermarkets in a occupation/conflict or whatever despite having 1/5 of their population brutally murdered and 1/4 of the population fleeing and 6000 holy temples and monasteries razed to the ground. But maybe that is because or their religion and strong leadership from the Dalai lama. Once there was violent riots some years ago he threatened to step down and it stopped. Obviously all tibetans really arent saints, but they certaiy embody non violence very well in general. I contrast the 2 occupations/conflicts because they are about just as old, but are very different in nature.

 

[Carolina Red]

Well having seen statues of Jesus my guess is that the first Christians were from Scandinavia

 

[RedTiger]

N

Regardless of the veracity of that statement, it would have nothing to do with Herodotus, who did not talk about Palestinian people, and whose words you could easily translate from Greek as 'Hebrew.'

Herodotus might not have mentioned Palestinian people but he did mention Palaistine, or maybe the history books I read as a kid were Chinese knockoffs.

 

[Gehrman]

Well having seen statues of Jesus my guess is that the first Christians were from Scandinavia

Doesnt look enough like Haaland.

 

[Carolina Red]

An endonym is an internal identifier, something a group use to identify themselves. Like 'Jews' or 'Saxons' or 'Anglos' - Brittania is an interesting one, but to my knowledge there was no identfier for Palestinians until far later.

Exonym then, but again, I am referring to someone who began their argument with the phrase “As a Greek…” and concluded from that perspective that Palestinian Christians have never existed.

The 'Palestine' that the Assyrians conquered was mainly Syria, though later on they took Samaria too.

Assyrian Palastu definitely corresponds to areas within Roman Era Palestine and modern Palestine / Israel.

 

[RedTiger]

An endonym is an internal identifier, something a group use to identify themselves. Like 'Jews' or 'Saxons' or 'Anglos' - Brittania is an interesting one, but to my knowledge there was no identfier for Palestinians until far later.

If you go by this then Indian (hindu) people dont exist either considering they only started using the endonym very recently in regards to history.

 

[Dumbstar]

Doesnt look enough like Haaland.

You don't want to scare the kids.

 

[Gehrman]

You don't want to scare the kids.

It would be some sight. Him crucified with his tounge hanging out on the cross.

 

[owlo]

If you go by this then Indian (hindu) people dont exist either considering they only started using the endonym very recently in regards to history.

India was far too big for the people to have a single identity. Hell, even the English didn't until the 10th century and that place is tiny. They had loads of internal endonyms for the peoples within India though. 'Nationality' in the sense of 'country' is a very modern concept (and is still resisted in many cultures/tribes/places).

The idea of an ancient discrete 'Palestinian people' is stupid to me. This conflict is cultural, religious, historical, and modern. It has nothing to do with fantasy ancient claims. Historically and genetically, Jews, Palestinians, and a bunch of other nationalities from the region are pretty much identical.

 

[AlPistacho]

Doesnt look enough like Haaland.

Errrrm getting there by the day

 

[Spoony]

They're(Palestinians) descendants of the people of Canaan.

 

[owlo]

Exonym then, but again, I am referring to someone who began their argument with the phrase “As a Greek…” and concluded from that perspective that Palestinian Christians have never existed.

Assyrian Palastu definitely corresponds to areas within Roman Era Palestine and modern Palestine / Israel.

The 5 cities (which you may be confusing with 'Palestine' were not such.) Assyrian primary sources themselves describe Samaria as capital of Israel, and the Kingdom of Judah as Israel. They describe each of the Philistine confederacies individually. They were in conflict with Israel though [and by extension the Kushite empire] until subdued. They were indeed in modern Israel however.

http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/rinap/rinap1/Q003457/html

(17') [The land Bīt-Ḫumrî] (Israel), all [of whose] cities I [utterly devastated i]n former campaigns of mine, whose [...] (and) livestock I carried off, and (whose capital) Samaria I isola[ted] — (now) [they overthrew Peqa]h, their king,

http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/rinap/rinap1/Q003455/html

b) I annexed to Assyria [..., the city Kaš]pūna, which is on the shore of the Upper (text: “Lower”) Sea, the cities [...]nite, Gil[ead, and] Abil-šiṭṭi, which are the border of the land Bīt-Ḫumrî (Israel), the extensive [land of Bīt-Ḫazā-i]l (Damascus) in [its] en[tirety, (and) I pla]ced [... eunuch]s of mine as provincial governors [over them].

(As for) Ḫanūnu of the city Gaza, [who] fle[d before] my weapons [and] escaped [to] Egypt — (10´) [I conquered] the city Gaza, [his royal city, (and) I carried off] his property (and) [his] gods.

(10'b) [I fashioned (a statue bearing) image(s) of the god]s, my [lo]rds, and my royal image [out of gold, erected (it) i]n the palace [of the city Gaza], (and) I reckoned (it) [am]ong the gods of their land; I established [their sattukku offerings].


(15'b) (As for) the land Bīt-Ḫumrî (Israel), I brought [to] Assyria [..., its “au]xiliary [army” ...] (and) all of its people, [...].

(17'b) [I/they] killed Peqah, their king, and I placed Hoshea [as king o]ver them. I received from them ten talents of gold, ... talents of silver, [together with] their [proper]ty, and [I brou]ght them [to Assyria].

'Israel' is mentioned consistently in Assyrian sources, but to my knowledge there's never 'A Palestine' (Hazael of Damascus was 'Palestine' I believe, but unsure exactly.) I'm moderately confident it just referred to the 5 cities most of the time.

 

[Tibs]

It seems like more people are walking up the Israeli terrorist cnut government, idf, and their vile supporters.

hearing and seeing much more pro-Palestine sentiment from people in person and online

 

[Carolina Red]

They describe each of the Philistine confederacies individually.

And what word do we get from that?
“Palestine
Term deriving from the Assyrian term Palashtu denoting the southern coasts of the Levant inhabited by the Philistines, also known in biblical texts as the Land of the Philistines.”
- Oxford Dictionary of Late Antiquity

What did the Romans call the province they created when they merged Judea with Galilea in the 2nd century CE?

Quit beating around the bush and just admit that there have been Palestinian Christians - Christians whose homeland was / is Palestine - for nearly 2 millennia and that the guy arguing that they have never existed is flat out wrong.

 

[owlo]

And what word do we get from that?

We don't. Or rather the Assyrians didn't. That's why they used the names of the individual kingdoms.

You could argue that the sea people that came from somewhere and settled next to Judah had a singular identity though. I could even buy that.

Quit beating around the bush and just admit that there have been Palestinian Christians - Christians whose homeland was / is Palestine - for nearly 2 millennia and that the guy arguing that they have never existed is flat out wrong.

This [pretty bad] map is probably the best we'll get for early 'Palestine'/the 5 cities. Phoenicia was a friendly/vassal kingdom to Judah and extends into Lebanon. You can see how far north Judah extends, but it's very contentious.

Regardless - the 'sea people' or 'philistines' who moved in 12BC were not Christians, as Christianity did not exist, so they have absolutely nothing to do with 'Christian Palestinians.

It's completely inconsequential though, simply interesting history. The crux is that there are Christians who identify as Palestinian, therefore there are Palestinian Christians. Whether they have been there for 'two milennia' is a silly argument because there's no genetic difference between a Muslim and Christian Palestinian. They just follow a different religion.

 

[Carolina Red]

@owlo - and here’s a map of Palaestina by the time Christianity actually existed

There were Christians in that area called Palestina.

Whether they have been there for 'two milennia' is a silly argument because there's no genetic difference between a Muslim and Christian Palestinian. They just follow a different religion.

What’s a silly argument is to claim they’ve never existed. Now, if you don’t mind, I’d like to get back to seeing if the person who actually posted that has anything to say for themselves.

 

[owlo]

@owlo - and here’s a map of Palaestina by the time Christianity actually existed

There were Christians in that area called Palestina.

What’s a silly argument is to claim they’ve never existed. Now, if you don’t mind, I’d like to get back to seeing if the person who actually posted that has anything to say for themselves.

I'm sure there were, given that is a map of Roman provinces. You'd expect Romans to be there.

They weren't 'Roman/Christian Palestinians' though. They were simply Romans, who intermarried etc over the next thousands of years.

(ps. You could also provide the context that it was the Romans who changed the name from 'Roman Judea' to 'Palaestina' and then merged to 'Syria Palaestina' as a result of Roman victory over Judea.)

 

[Carolina Red]

I'm sure there were, given that is a map of Roman provinces. You'd expect Romans to be there.

I said Christians, not Romans. The earliest converts to Christianity were natives of that region.

ps. You could also provide the context that it was the Romans who changed the name from 'Roman Judea' to 'Palaestina' and then merged to 'Syria Palaestina' as a result of Roman victory over Judea

P.S. - I have. Repeatedly.

 

[The Corinthian]

@owlo - and here’s a map of Palaestina by the time Christianity actually existed

There were Christians in that area called Palestina.

What’s a silly argument is to claim they’ve never existed. Now, if you don’t mind, I’d like to get back to seeing if the person who actually posted that has anything to say for themselves.

Exactly.

Who could imagine a fairly accepted and obvious term such as Palestinian Christian would (almost deliberately) detract and deflect from what's happening there at the moment.

Also, Jesus was literally a refugee Palestinian Jew. Hadrian renamed the region Palestine (to antagonise the Jewish population at the time) effectively wiping Judea off the map, and as he wanted to remove the Jewish presence from the region.

And as you rightly mentioned, the land had been called 'Palaistine' by Herodotus 500 years before all of this.

 

[frostbite]

Greeks have been in the Levante for millennia. And Greeks have been Christians for 2000 years. But Greeks in the area never identified themselves as "Palestinian Christians". Yes, there is a Palestine and yes there are Christians in Palestine, but there was never any community that identified themselves as "Palestinian Christians". There were communities of Greeks, of Armenians, and so on... Greeks are Greeks and Armenians are Armenians, they don't belong to any single community "Palestinian Christians".

And yes, there are atheists who live in Palestine. But there is no community of "Palestinian Atheists".

 

[Carolina Red]

But Greeks in the area never identified themselves as "Palestinian Christians".

Good thing I'm not talking about the Greeks then, isn't it?

 

[frostbite]

Good thing I'm not talking about the Greeks then, isn't it?

Sure, but the problem is you are probably not talking about anyone!

Romans became Byzantines, and they are basically the Greeks (Rum), and as you agree they never identified themselves as "Palestinian Christians". For about a thousand years, the area belonged to Hellenistic/Roman/Byzantine Empire till it fell to the Arabs. The majority of the Christians in the area stayed there from the Byzantine Era. The Jerusalem (Christian) Patriarchate used to be Greek.

Armenians never identify as "Palestinian Christians" either. And as far as I know, Catholics never called themselves "Palestinian Christians" either, and their allegiance is with the Pope.

Who exactly are the "Palestinian Christians"? Where did they come from? Are they Arab Muslims who converted to Christianity?

 

[2cents]

Sure, but the problem is you are probably not talking about anyone!

Romans became Byzantines, and they are basically the Greeks (Rum), and as you agree they never identified themselves as "Palestinian Christians". For about a thousand years, the area belonged to Hellenistic/Roman/Byzantine Empire till it fell to the Arabs. The majority of the Christians in the area stayed there from the Byzantine Era. The Jerusalem (Christian) Patriarchate used to be Greek.

Armenians never identify as "Palestinian Christians" either. And as far as I know, Catholics never called themselves "Palestinian Christians" either, and their allegiance is with the Pope.

Who exactly are the "Palestinian Christians"? Where did they come from? Are they Arab Muslims who converted to Christianity?

The clergy of Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem was exclusively Greek, but the laity were/are Arabic-speaking natives. In fact, members of the Arabic-speaking Greek Orthodox laity were at the forefront of developing a distinct Arab and Palestinian identity in the region in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. And one of the factors driving this process was the fact that the clergy was closed to Arabs, who could only rise as high as poor parish priests. This in turn helped drive many to pursue education at alternative, foreign - Russian, French, American, British, etc. - schools, where they encountered ideas of nationalism and developed a sharper, more secular sense of their distinct identity.

 

[Carolina Red]

Sure, but the problem is you are probably not talking about anyone!

Romans became Byzantines, and they are basically the Greeks (Rum), and as you agree they never identified themselves as "Palestinian Christians". For about a thousand years, the area belonged to Hellenistic/Roman/Byzantine Empire till it fell to the Arabs. The majority of the Christians in the area stayed there from the Byzantine Era. The Jerusalem (Christian) Patriarchate used to be Greek.

Armenians never identify as "Palestinian Christians" either. And as far as I know, Catholics never called themselves "Palestinian Christians" either, and their allegiance is with the Pope.

Who exactly are the "Palestinian Christians"? Where did they come from? Are they Arab Muslims who converted to Christianity?

You realize that there's a whole population of people already living in this region prior to the Greeks or Romans, right?

Like... I'm honestly curious at this point to know if you think Jesus of Nazareth was a Greek or Roman.

I'm also curious as to whether or not you realize that Palestine had Christianity in it centuries before Islam existed.