Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) look forward to a new life under Ruben Amorim. What system will we be playing? What players will impress? and how will it all go? We also say goodbye to Ruud Van Nistelrooy and review United's 3-0 win at home against Leicester City.
Yea, I just used the 'temple mount' colloquialism for it, without even realising that jews call that the wall too.
That last tweet does not look like Rechavia to me, though my memory is spotty of the region.
Somebody just drove a truck/suv into protestors in Ayalon with a tank full. Investigation ongoing. Possible Likud nutjob.
Research universites stop from tomorrow, Meretz sticking the knife in, and representatives resigning around the world. Possibly a turning point day. Bitan and Levinson quitting Likud to vote independently. Too much to put in one post.
Febrile and instable.
Near where the truck hit them.
Technically yes but it is a mosque in practical terms.
Reform dead in the water. Majority to stop it.
Hopefully this won't be enough for the protesters. Attempting to orchestrate the judicial coup should be disqualifying for Bibi's government.
This is true, and at this moment in time it may be most accurate to view these protests as acting on behalf of the status quo, with the Palestinians an afterthought (if even). But I think (and hope) it may be a formative moment on that question for at least a few Israelis capable of making the connection. Couple of videos from the last few days showing some protesters explicitly calling for equality for all, end of occupation, etc:
Wow. I’m not getting my hopes up yet but wow.
Thread giving a Palestinian perspective:
This has definitely developed tonight from stopping the judicial changes to getting rid of the dictator wannabe.
Same same
I'm just waiting for events to unfold as well. But the sooner that POS is out of business, the better a lot of people will feel. Netanyahu should have been brought in front of a judge for all of the corruption charges a long time ago.
edit: This is the police chief in Tel Aviv.
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It's all getting a bit "dictators last stand" over there. 
It's all getting a bit "dictators last stand" over there.
I don't think we're getting there quite yet. Netanyahu is stuck between the rock and the hard place with all the different interests of himself (the trial), his nutty family, his coalition partners. I suppose the judicial "reform" will be halted later today, though the fact it hasn't happened yet shows just how much Netanyahu has lost it and lost power. Once that happens, I'm not sure where we'll go from there. The labour union won't continue the strike in order to bring Netanyahu down or anything. That may be a longer term thing.
But he must go. He's completely bunkers now, possibly under huge influence from his insane son.
He's already on trial. It's just taking a longggggggggggggg time and will take much longer. That's part of the problem as it has given him time to try to influence his own future in court (and jail).
What hopes? This has nothing to with Palestinians. Only a few hundred brave people are protesting as part of “the block against occupation”, those are our allies. These are status quo protests. Democracy for Jews.
If Bibi doubles down, the country will truly burn. I don’t think he will. I believe the reforms will be scrapped, as Bibi tries to buy some time by calling for a unified government with Gantz and other war criminals from the opposition on the pretense of stabilizing the country.
It's certainly more likely than before. Universities and stuff are closed now, a lot of envoys around the world have resigned, there's the Gallant fallout, and the prospect of a Likud splinter.
Protests right now a microcosm of Israeli society. The occupation posters and activist left *prevent* the centre left/secular left/centre right from mobilizing in general, because their antics make people angry and they haven't wanted to ally with them. However, 'enough is enough' and when it becomes too much, those people join in. Likud entertaining the far right is doing just that. It's completely separate from the Palestinian issues. For example, tweets like this are common:
With regards to the Palestinians, there's no realistic solution forthcoming, and the majority of those people care more about their lives and security than non Israelis.You only have to look at recent polls to see how pessemistic people are with regards to a solution. There will be no mobilization of Israeli society for Palestinian rights.
Ps. I wrote most of this post last night so it may be inaccurate or outdated.
The anti-occupation block is so minuscule it barely registers, but to call them a joke and a means to whitewash the protests is wrong. They are doing what they can and catching hell for it from all sides.
From an analytical standpoint, the protests stem from a paradoxical, whitewashing, pinkwashing and murderous ideology. Nothing democratic about this. It is about maintaining the current flavor of apartheid, the easier flavor to sleep at night to and to defend internationally. It really is frightening how deluded the masses are in thinking they are “democratic in DNA”. This country has never seen a democratic day. From war, to military rule, to occupation and apartheid.
Well said.
Interestingly, this is a prelude as to what may happen in the US if Trump ever becomes President again. The parallels are pretty interesting - both under legal scrutiny - one "reforming the judiciary" the other promoting to "destroy the deep state" if reelected.
What are the main points of this judicial reform people are protesting against?
Still no word from Netanyahu, Smotrich is denying that he has approved a delay, and he and ben Gvir calling on their people to join a planned counter-protest in Jerusalem tonight.
Not into an the details but I think the one line summary is that the majority parliamentary can override any supreme court ruling, essentially removing all barriers for the government to do what they want.
It's not miniscule, it's just not as extreme or militant as you'd like it to be. And those who do lean more extreme, get others to lean the other way or denounce it entirely. Also, support is waning.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-polls-regarding-peace-with-the-palestinians There is awareness, and a somewhat willingness to get things done from a significant number of people.
I believe there are important structural differences between Israel and the US which means outcome and nature of civil unrest would be entirely different. Trump is far more scary than Bibi.
On the civilian side, this is a left/right alliance; the leaning right are perfectly happy to abandon their principles/politicians to protect the way of life. Bibi is running out of road and doesn't really have much personal support left. He's relying on the far right to prop him up [and is becoming powerless anyway]. Trump wouldn't need that; as president he would have far reaching executive power and no viable way to remove him as his political and grassroots base are both so strong.
Largely protests are peaceful, and at worst water cannon and tear gas are being deployed so the response is relatively peaceful. This is in a country where many of the protestors are legally carrying automatic weapons. We're not seeing looted shops and wrecked streets. We're not seeing the protestors fighting each other over idealogy. I don't think we'd see such a restrained effort on either side in the USA.
There's also a much smaller professional cadre in the IDF, meaning many of the elite pilots/SOF etc are actually reservists, who can and will stop serving if the politicians displease them. It's substantial enough to severely limit force readiness. Strategic weapons are also not the sole purview of the prime minister.
Israel is also a small country with some broadly similar visions; it's far easier to mobilise and then climb down, on both sides.
From Wikipedia (3 sources for the paragraph):
It seeks to curb the judiciary's intervention and influence over lawmaking and public policy by limiting the Supreme Court's power to exercise judicial review, granting the government control over judicial appointments and limiting the authority of its legal advisors. If adopted, the reform would grant the Knesset the power to override Supreme Court rulings that deem legislation passed by the Knesset as unconstitutional, by reintroducing the legislation and approving it with a majority of Knesset Members. The reform would additionally diminish the ability of courts to conduct judicial review of the Basic Laws, and change the makeup of the Judicial Selection Committee so that a majority of its members are appointed by the government and effective control over the appointment of judges is given to the government.
He's boxed in, between the far right abandoning him and Likud splintering. Meanwhile he has to keep power to ward off corruption charges.
Meanwhile if the AG sacks him for breaching his supreme court agreement, there's another constitutional crisis given the law they passed a few days ago.
The new government is seeking to subjugate the authority of he Supreme Court to the Government by allowing the Knesset to overturn Supreme Court rulings and the government to appoint judges. So the function of the Supreme Court would essentially be to rubber stamp whatever a 51% majority in the Knesset comes up with at any given time. The Supreme Court has the reputation (not always deserved) of standing as the only meaningful institution that provides a check on the absolute authority of the government, including in the West Bank. Netanyahu is pushing these reforms largely to protect himself from prison. Smotrich and Ben-Gvir (and others) are pushing them so that they have a free hand in the West Bank to pursue their ultimate goal there (escalation of violence in order to provide pretext for expulsion of Palestinians).
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Bibibot in full spam mode apparently.
They are going to try to provoke violence with the counter protests tonight, so they can declare a state of emergency, and push a narrative that the protests are violent anarchy.
They are going to try to provoke violence with the counter protests tonight, so they can declare a state of emergency, and push a narrative that the protests are violent anarchy.
Bibi wants to see if he can incite enough violence to end the protests before giving in.
Arabs getting involved:
Above tweet google translated as:
“This is a critical hour! There is a real opportunity to overthrow the fascist legislation, and an opportunity to grow from the protest to a broad camp that demands equality, democracy for all and the end of the occupation! But Netanyahu has his back against the wall, he knows that patriotism is the villain's last refuge. We will not allow him to drag us into a nationalist war so that he can keep his seat!”
Above tweet google translated as:
“This is a critical hour! There is a real opportunity to overthrow the fascist legislation, and an opportunity to grow from the protest to a broad camp that demands equality, democracy for all and the end of the occupation! But Netanyahu has his back against the wall, he knows that patriotism is the villain's last refuge. We will not allow him to drag us into a nationalist war so that he can keep his seat!”
These Arab MKs are talking to themselves. Nobody is listening, not Arabs in Israel, and definitely not the protesting Zionist left. The strike was decided by the Union of Local Authorities in Israel.
Another resident Israeli here....
yeah, it's not gonna change one iota re: Palestinians in Israel or WB a/o Gaza.
The majority of protesters are fine with the status quo (not really really fine, but they'll live their lives as usual while it exists, which means they're fine with it. like all of us regarding tons of horrific stuff that happen in the world).
They protest because they now realize that the government seeks ways to make it judicially possible to treat them as enemies of the state,
And throw them to jail because they refuse to raise the Israeli flag or something along those lines.
So yes, this government is really scary. And those who feel like they'll be persecuted are out in the streets in the name of democracy...
Those who're already persecuted won't have their voice heard all of a sudden (not talking strictly about Palestinians but they're obviously the most glaring example).
yeah, it's not gonna change one iota re: Palestinians in Israel or WB a/o Gaza.
The majority of protesters are fine with the status quo (not really really fine, but they'll live their lives as usual while it exists, which means they're fine with it. like all of us regarding tons of horrific stuff that happen in the world).
They protest because they now realize that the government seeks ways to make it judicially possible to treat them as enemies of the state,
And throw them to jail because they refuse to raise the Israeli flag or something along those lines.
So yes, this government is really scary. And those who feel like they'll be persecuted are out in the streets in the name of democracy...
Those who're already persecuted won't have their voice heard all of a sudden (not talking strictly about Palestinians but they're obviously the most glaring example).
Polling data - exciting stuff.
- If an election was run today, the 'left' could win 61 seats WITHOUT hadash-ta'al (rendering the balad siphoning inconsequential)
- Likud and the far right would be stuck on 54, hadash-ta'al would get 5.
- Gantz (who is kinda a joke and betrayer) is blowing up huge, impossible to know if he could take the PM spot over Lapid
- Quite good news for Arab parties; hadash-ta'al couldn't blow up everything, but on contentious stuff they would matter.
- No more Shaked, Ben Gvir, or Smotrich. Time to get Bibi into jail.
- Vulnerable to palestinian terrorism. Major incidents would drive likud support over the need for 'security'
- Bad news for settlers, sadge.
- If an election was run today, the 'left' could win 61 seats WITHOUT hadash-ta'al (rendering the balad siphoning inconsequential)
- Likud and the far right would be stuck on 54, hadash-ta'al would get 5.
- Gantz (who is kinda a joke and betrayer) is blowing up huge, impossible to know if he could take the PM spot over Lapid
- Quite good news for Arab parties; hadash-ta'al couldn't blow up everything, but on contentious stuff they would matter.
- No more Shaked, Ben Gvir, or Smotrich. Time to get Bibi into jail.
- Vulnerable to palestinian terrorism. Major incidents would drive likud support over the need for 'security'
- Bad news for settlers, sadge.
But with the delay and end to the general strike, what are the chances of a new election anytime soon?
Highly unlikely. Not because of the delay and end of strike, but because the coalition parties would hold on to one another while the polls look like that. This government, now more than ever, is a once in a lifetime opportunity to them.