Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Fredo said:
I have nothing against their religion, same for christianity/islam. People are free to believe what they want to believe, but if we argue based on religion, then if they indeed contributed/had a direct say in the killing of God's son (according to christianity) then you would think God would punish them somehow?
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According to scripture, after the Israelites first claimed the lands, they disobeyed time and time again, and were judged time and time again. Eventually their disobedience led to Judah's 70 year captivity somewhere in modern day Iraq (Babylon), and after that they were dispersed by the Romans. The destruction of Jerusalem was prophesied by Jesus, and the prophets before him. The regathering of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is mentioned by several prophets, which Jews cite.
In Christianity it is understood that the Jewish people are loved by God on behalf of the patriarchs, and that they will continue to be blessed because of the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Christians refer to Jews the the physical children of promise to Abraham, whereas Christians and messianic Jews regard themselves as the spiritual seed of Abraham according to the apostle Paul's writings.

The reforming of the state of Israel is obviously important to Jews and Christians, because it reaffirms God's love for his people, and it is seen as a fulfillment of prophecy. This would obviously be utterly rejected by Muslims, who would find it offensive.
So yes, the religious implications are huge, but if it's all nonsense, then politically Israel are guilty of land grabbing and political / social injustices.
 
I always find it hilarious that when it comes to Zionists and their belief that they should physically kick off people from land that they've been living in for generations, making them homeless, we should 'respect' it as it's their belief. But when it comes to Muslims and they're so called belief of beating women and subjogating them, they are 'barbarians' and 'backward' and should be condemed and every opportunity.
 
vidic blood & sand said:
According to scripture, after the Israelites first claimed the lands, they disobeyed time and time again, and were judged time and time again. Eventually their disobedience led to Judah's 70 year captivity somewhere in modern day Iraq (Babylon), and after that they were dispersed by the Romans. The destruction of Jerusalem was prophesied by Jesus, and the prophets before him. The regathering of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is mentioned by several prophets, which Jews cite.
In Christianity it is understood that the Jewish people are loved by God on behalf of the patriarchs, and that they will continue to be blessed because of the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Christians refer to Jews the the physical children of promise to Abraham, whereas Christians and messianic Jews regard themselves as the spiritual seed of Abraham according to the apostle Paul's writings.

The reforming of the state of Israel is obviously important to Jews and Christians, because it reaffirms God's love for his people, and it is seen as a fulfillment of prophecy. This would obviously be utterly rejected by Muslims, who would find it offensive.
So yes, the religious implications are huge, but if it's all nonsense, then politically Israel are guilty of land grabbing and political / social injustices.
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Okay I get your point, but don't you find it weird that Europe, who is mostly secular/atheist these days, is blindly supporting Israel, I mean if most of Europe/USA don't really believe in God, then all this support for a religious cause seems irrational to me and even if there are Christians supporting this, the way of reclaiming that land/fulfilling this prophecy (forcibly killing people, throwing them out of their lands) is against the basic principles of Christianity that are forgiveness and loving the enemy as much as friends/family.

Again, we are basing our discussion on the fact that indeed the Torah, Bible, Quran are "valid".
 
Fredo said:
I mean finding rest in actually having a safe state where they can live normally without the need to have so much military/control/drones watching their skies 24/7, for me it's like living in a prison with an open roof but if it makes them happy then okay...
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It's better than being persecuted and killed in Europe to be fair.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
I always find it hilarious that when it comes to Zionists and their belief that they should physically kick off people from land that they've been living in for generations, making them homeless, we should 'respect' it as it's their belief. But when it comes to Muslims and they're so called belief of beating women and subjogating them, they are 'barbarians' and 'backward' and should be condemed and every opportunity.
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Muslims don't believe in beating women. :lol:
 
JPRouve said:
Muslims don't believe in beating women. :lol:
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That's why I said 'so called', it's obviously not a belief for Muslims to treat women poorly but they are protrayed in the West as such. They are condemed for this while Zionism is accepted and has to be 'respected'.

I'm a happily married Muslim myself, and I don't beat my wife :angel:
 
Fredo said:
I mean finding rest in actually having a safe state where they can live normally without the need to have so much military/control/drones watching their skies 24/7, for me it's like living in a prison with an open roof but if it makes them happy then okay...
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Living in Gaza is like living in a prison with an open roof, but if you're, for example, a European Jew, living in Israel is a really nice life.

Make no mistake they're a militarist settler colonial nation, but they're also a weathy western liberal democracy with a high standard of living.
 
The Corinthian said:
There's fairly obvious reasons for that though? They're given tax breaks, tax free imports, accommodation, financial assistance, free courses, free transports in terms of services to relocate back to Israel. And then on top of that they can pretty much act with impunity once they're there.
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There are material factors of course but I'm sure that other factors around identity and belonging play a big part too.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
That's why I said 'so called', it's obviously not a belief for Muslims to treat women poorly but they are protrayed in the West as such. They are condemed for this while Zionism is accepted and has to be 'respected'.

I'm a happily married Muslim myself, and I don't beat my wife :angel:
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" As for women of whom you fear rebellion, convince them, and leave them apart in beds, and beat them. Then, if they obey you, do not seek a way against them. Surely, Allah is the Highest, the Greatest. "

Still doesn't mean it has to be applied but it is there...
 
Rektsanwalt said:
call it systematically suppress then, who cares

Edit: I meant opress
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Muslims do not systematically oppress women either. Now Islamic culture like many other culture(including most western cultures) is patriarchal.
 
VorZakone said:
Remind me again, why is a 2-state solution not viable?
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The three major practical issues complicating it are the question of Jerusalem, resolution of the Palestinian refugee problem, and the settlements.

On a broader level, a general unwillingness to compromise has characterized both sides’ approach to the prospect, although this has tended to ebb and flow with the course of events.
 
JPRouve said:
Muslims do not systematically oppress women either. Now Islamic culture like many other culture(including most western cultures) is patriarchal.
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Sounds like theory. Reality - of what I see daily - shows something very different. Besides, separating religion from culture seems like a very theoretical thing as well.
 
JPRouve said:
Muslims do not systematically oppress women either. Now Islamic culture like many other culture(including most western cultures) is patriarchal.
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Women in Saudi Arabia were not allowed to drive (until recently), not allowed to go to cinemas, not allowed to attend sports events etc, that's oppression in my understanding but if they are doing some progress then yes! Finally!

Also, "crimes of honor" if you want to call them that way is when basically a father/brother kills his sister for bringing shame to the family, shame being mainly having sex with someone before marriage or being with someone from another religion, this still exists today unfortunately, but at the same time it is to be expected as Islam is 500/600 years behind the closest religion that preceded it, so still a lot of time to progress..
 
The fact that people are now discussing women's rights in Islam rather than addressing the point of hypocrisy with the Zionist movement is a good illustration of Islamaphobia in the West, and how rather extremist Zionist views are tolerated.

I apologize for opening that can of worms.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
The fact that people are now discussing women's rights in Islam rather than addressing the point of hypocrisy with the Zionist movement is a good illustration of Islamaphobia in the West, and how rather extremist Zionist views are tolerated.

I apologize for opening that can of worms.
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Well done Hasan, here they come now.
 
Fredo said:
Women in Saudi Arabia were not allowed to drive (until recently), not allowed to go to cinemas, not allowed to attend sports events etc, that's oppression in my understanding but if they are doing some progress then yes! Finally!

Also, "crimes of honor" if you want to call them that way is when basically a father/brother kills his sister for bringing shame to the family, shame being mainly having sex with someone before marriage or being with someone from another religion, this still exists today unfortunately, but at the same time it is to be expected as Islam is 500/600 years behind the closest religion that preceded it, so still a lot of time to progress..
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You see the bolded part? Not all muslims are from Saudi Arabia and they don't have the same culture.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
The fact that people are now discussing women's rights in Islam rather than addressing the point of hypocrisy with the Zionist movement is a good illustration of Islamaphobia in the West, and how rather extremist Zionist views are tolerated.

I apologize for opening that can of worms.
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Sorry to digress Hassan but your comparison brought this up :lol: :lol:
 
Rektsanwalt said:
Sounds like theory. Reality - of what I see daily - shows something very different. Besides, separating religion from culture seems like a very theoretical thing as well.
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So you actually don't know what you are talking about? I come from a multicultural family and I can tell you that two christians that are not from the same culture will have a big chance to have different religious practices, the same is true for muslims.
 
JPRouve said:
You see the bolded part? Not all muslims are from Saudi Arabia and they don't have the same culture.
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We're not talking about the culture but what is stated in the Quran, Islam is a long way from modernization but again so was Christianity at some point, it will take time before in most Muslim countries women and non-Muslims enjoy the same rights as the others, but progress is due at some point...
 
Insulting another member
JPRouve said:
So you actually don't know what you are talking about? I come from a multicultural family and I can tell you that two christians that are not from the same culture will have a big chance to have different religious practices, the same is true for muslims.
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You're a condescending, arrogant little prick which is why I refuse to discuss anything further on this matter with you, since you seem to have a lot more freetime to be an asshole online than I do.
 
Fredo said:
We're not talking about the culture but what is stated in the Quran, Islam is a long way from modernization but again so was Christianity at some point, it will take time before in most Muslim countries women and non-Muslims enjoy the same rights as the others, but progress is due at some point...
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The initial post didn't talk about what was stated in the Quran but what was believed by muslims. And the way he put it was amusing.
 
JPRouve said:
The initial post didn't talk about what was stated in the Quran but what was believed by muslims. And the way he put it was amusing.
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Dont the muslims take the Quran as their guidance book though? Theoretically speaking I mean, if I am a devouted muslim, then I would follow the book blindly, thankfully I'm neither but you get the idea...
 
Fredo said:
Dont the muslims take the Quran as their guidance book though? Theoretically speaking I mean, if I am a devouted muslim, then I would follow the book blindly, thankfully I'm neither but you get the idea...
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Most don't follow it blindly or literally, like any other religion and the way they follow it depends on their culture.
 
Rektsanwalt said:
Sounds like theory. Reality - of what I see daily - shows something very different. Besides, separating religion from culture seems like a very theoretical thing as well.
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From what I can see you got Rekt in this thread.
 
Rektsanwalt said:
You're a condescending, arrogant little prick which is why I refuse to discuss anything further on this matter with you, since you seem to have a lot more freetime to be an asshole online than I do.
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Easy tiger.
 
africanspur said:
As an aside, imo, the outsized place the conflict plays in the Muslim psyche now, as well as the increased prominence of Islamist parties in Palestinian politics has unfortunately made it easier to paint the conflict as a religious one.

One that exists between the civilised Israel, an outpost of Western civilisation, and the savage Palestinians (read Muslims) who would have peace if only they loved their own kids as much as they hate the Jews.

Not saying everyone believes this of course or even a majority but I've certainly encountered this view more than I did previously.
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Yeah, I think this is the most prevalent view among the people I know. Was in that camp myself until I started looking into it on my own. Makes you think when you realize you've had the wrong idea about something all along.
 
vidic blood & sand said:
According to scripture, after the Israelites first claimed the lands, they disobeyed time and time again, and were judged time and time again. Eventually their disobedience led to Judah's 70 year captivity somewhere in modern day Iraq (Babylon), and after that they were dispersed by the Romans. The destruction of Jerusalem was prophesied by Jesus, and the prophets before him. The regathering of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is mentioned by several prophets, which Jews cite.
In Christianity it is understood that the Jewish people are loved by God on behalf of the patriarchs, and that they will continue to be blessed because of the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Christians refer to Jews the the physical children of promise to Abraham, whereas Christians and messianic Jews regard themselves as the spiritual seed of Abraham according to the apostle Paul's writings.

The reforming of the state of Israel is obviously important to Jews and Christians, because it reaffirms God's love for his people, and it is seen as a fulfillment of prophecy. This would obviously be utterly rejected by Muslims, who would find it offensive.
So yes, the religious implications are huge, but if it's all nonsense, then politically Israel are guilty of land grabbing and political / social injustices.
Click to expand...

Didn't the new testament take away the land? If I recall correctly that was explained by Augustine.

For what it's worth I don't buy into this being about religion. I recall a study saying upto about 40% of Jews in Israel are atheist. And the Palestinians are fighting for nationalism which is strongly disliked, hated even by Islamic scripture.

There is a certain narrative that is propogated when it comes to Israel and scripture, some of it was blown apart in the 80's, as in how the borders lay at the time of the Jews leaving Egypt and even scripture (Bible) has reference to borders which would include Jordan and Syria if it was about religion and scripture. Not a lot of this gets pushed in RE or the narrative
 
Roane said:
I'm a bit rusty on the topic, so maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

However isn't one of the arguments against Zionism from orthodox Jews that the current Israel is a rebellion against God?

I'd have to Google the topic as a refresher but wasn't it Haredi Jews? Also wasn't it a very large percentage of these, 80% if I recall, who were killed in the Holocaust?
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The subject of national and religious identity is really interesting, and although I do think it's relevant to what is happening in Palestine, it's going to deter from discussing the actual hostilities.
Are there practicing Jews in this forum?
I'd love to take it in to the religion thread to discuss their take on it.
 
Rektsanwalt said:
You're a condescending, arrogant little prick which is why I refuse to discuss anything further on this matter with you, since you seem to have a lot more freetime to be an asshole online than I do.
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Only one of us insulted the other. :lol:

But on a more serious note culture is a big factor on how people follow religions and how they follow scriptures. This isn't theory but reality, theory is to believe that everyone follows scriptures the same way.
 
Roane said:
Didn't the new testament take away the land? If I recall correctly that was explained by Augustine.

For what it's worth I don't buy into this being about religion. I recall a study saying upto about 40% of Jews in Israel are atheist. And the Palestinians are fighting for nationalism which is strongly disliked, hated even by Islamic scripture.

There is a certain narrative that is propogated when it comes to Israel and scripture, some of it was blown apart in the 80's, as in how the borders lay at the time of the Jews leaving Egypt and even scripture (Bible) has reference to borders which would include Jordan and Syria if it was about religion and scripture. Not a lot of this gets pushed in RE or the narrative
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There's also the often forgotten fact that not all Palestinians are Islamic. A considerable minority are Christian and Druze.
 
Fredo said:
" As for women of whom you fear rebellion, convince them, and leave them apart in beds, and beat them. Then, if they obey you, do not seek a way against them. Surely, Allah is the Highest, the Greatest. "

Still doesn't mean it has to be applied but it is there...
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The word wadribhunna was never translated as "beat" by classical scholars or most contemporary for that matter.
 
Kaos said:
There's also the often forgotten fact that not all Palestinians are Islamic. A considerable minority are Christian and Druze.
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I was referring to the verse in Jeremiah 31:31-32.

* Not disputing your point. Just clarifying my earlier point with a reference
 
vidic blood & sand said:
The subject of national and religious identity is really interesting, and although I do think it's relevant to what is happening in Palestine, it's going to deter from discussing the actual hostilities.
Are there practicing Jews in this forum?
I'd love to take it in to the religion thread to discuss their take on it.
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I'm not Jewish but have studied religion to a small degree. I have a passing interest in history of religion and disagree with many current notions presented by ALL religions, preferring to take a classical approach to views, interpretations and understandings.

The thing that really annoys me, and as a Muslim I will say about Islam currently is the narratives that are allowed to be discussed and the "reality" ( in speach marks as it's my opinion) that is suppressed.

The only reason I bought it to this discussion is because I believe that any current narrative has to have it beginning point in it's beginning not where we may be. So the question of "does Israel have a right to exist" is based on Israel in fact existing, which in itself is fine. However if the justifications, religious or historical, are bought into it then really it begins centuries ago and and answer needs to be based on that.

If that makes sense
 
Lebowski said:
Living in Gaza is like living in a prison with an open roof, but if you're, for example, a European Jew, living in Israel is a really nice life.

Make no mistake they're a militarist settler colonial nation, but they're also a weathy western liberal democracy with a high standard of living.
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Its called Apartheid
 
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