Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Yeah.... and anyone defends the actions of a terrorist organisation has the morale high ground. Now, I've heard it all :lol:

Having a highly sophisticated rocket interception system is self defence.

Bombing and killing innocent civilians and children in their homes is terrorism.
 


Subhuman scum.



I have an honest question and I hope you don't mind me asking. Does the word "subhuman" directly stem from the german word "Untermensch" (or maybe the other way around) or is it at least inevitably connected to nazi/far right wing extremist terminology? In Germany at least, it is definitely nazi terminology and the use of it would lead to a lot of trouble for the person using it. So I hope I don't come across narrow minded, but I read it as someone using a nazi word criticizing Israeli actions. Which would mean reading it very different than criticism by someone not using nazi terminology.
 
So sophisticated that most of them are hiding in shelters :lol: :lol: :lol:

Israel is a terrorist country that is still reaping benefits from WW2 from all those stupid countries who believe in its right to exist.
What benefits did WW2 bring? Maybe we should have more worldwide conflicts and genocide
 
What benefits did WW2 bring? Maybe we should have more worldwide conflicts and genocide

Well, in this case, basically its existence, although the word "benefit" might be a little misleading depending on the understanding of the context.
 
I have an honest question and I hope you don't mind me asking. Does the word "subhuman" directly stem from the german word "Untermensch" (or maybe the other way around) or is it at least inevitably connected to nazi/far right wing extremist terminology? In Germany at least, it is definitely nazi terminology and the use of it would lead to a lot of trouble for the person using it. So I hope I don't come across narrow minded, but I read it as someone using a nazi word criticizing Israeli actions. Which would mean reading it very different than criticism by someone not using nazi terminology.

Unfortunately this thread is littered with such terminology and direct Nazi-Israel analogies.
 
I have an honest question and I hope you don't mind me asking. Does the word "subhuman" directly stem from the german word "Untermensch" (or maybe the other way around) or is it at least inevitably connected to nazi/far right wing extremist terminology? In Germany at least, it is definitely nazi terminology and the use of it would lead to a lot of trouble for the person using it. So I hope I don't come across narrow minded, but I read it as someone using a nazi word criticizing Israeli actions. Which would mean reading it very different than criticism by someone not using nazi terminology.
Yes subhuman began with the Nazi’s in the Second World War when persecuting the Jews I believe.
 
What benefits did WW2 bring? Maybe we should have more worldwide conflicts and genocide

Europe (in general) still pays them to this day for the atrocities committed, despite so many countries not having to do anything with the genocide itself. Add to the fact that it was Britain who kind of brought them back to the middle-east and eventually erupted this conflict since 48. There have been way more atrocities committed across the globe (armenian genocide, cambodian genocide) but nobody admits/mentions them, Belgium alone killed half of the cambodian population yet nobody nags about it. Israel is so good at playing the victim role and having been doing so for around 60-70 years now, time to wake up.
 
Unfortunately this thread is littered with such terminology and direct Nazi-Israel analogies.
Yes subhuman began with the Nazi’s in the Second World War when persecuting the Jews I believe.

Well, I'd say that using said words does not necessarily make you a nazi or even some one leaning right, but it's still fascinating to see people using such words with either not knowing its origin and meaning or either being nazis/antisemites.
I looked it up btw and most likely the origin from the word "subhuman" or "Untermensch" in german might stem from a Ku Klux Klan leader who wrote about an "under-man". It's still inherently nazi/far right wing extremist/antisemite terminology.
 
Yes subhuman began with the Nazi’s in the Second World War when persecuting the Jews I believe.
Not just Jews; gypsies/Roma/Slavs/indigenous Soviet peoples, and it wouldn’t have stopped there. They honed their concentration camp practices in Africa so goodness knows what they would have done to African and Asian people
 
As an aside, imo, the outsized place the conflict plays in the Muslim psyche now, as well as the increased prominence of Islamist parties in Palestinian politics has unfortunately made it easier to paint the conflict as a religious one.

One that exists between the civilised Israel, an outpost of Western civilisation, and the savage Palestinians (read Muslims) who would have peace if only they loved their own kids as much as they hate the Jews.

Not saying everyone believes this of course or even a majority but I've certainly encountered this view more than I did previously.

Religion is a huge factor for both sides, but it plays a more significant role on the Judaist side regarding the occupied territories. Muslims hatred of the Jews is deep and religiously motivated, but the Palestinian protest against Israeli occupation is purely social / political.
It was an illegal land grab. It's difficult to defend Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank from a purely political perspective, but the historical/religious importance of the those territories for many Jewish people needs to be considered, along with the threat to homeland security. Many Israelis are against occupation, but I would assume they're mostly liberal atheists with no regard for the historical religious value of those territories. The majority of posters in this thread are arguing from the political, social, and illegal side of the predicament for the Palestinians, and from that perspective alone it's very difficult to disagree. The only conclusion to hostilities that I can think of is some kind of truce, where Palestinians and Jews live in harmony in those areas, but this would be an anathema to Islam. It seems to all boil down to this factor; can all Muslim countries accept Israel as a state? If the answer is no, can the rest of the world appreciate the threat this poses to Israel?
 
Not just Jews; gypsies/Roma/Slavs/indigenous Soviet peoples, and it wouldn’t have stopped there. They honed their concentration camp practices in Africa so goodness knows what they would have done to African and Asian people
Yes of course basically anybody got it from the Nazi’s even disabled or homosexual.
 
Religion is a huge factor for both sides, but it plays a more significant role on the Judaist side regarding the occupied territories. Muslims hatred of the Jews is deep and religiously motivated, but the Palestinian protest against Israeli occupation is purely social / political.
It was an illegal land grab. It's difficult to defend Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank from a purely political perspective, but the historical/religious importance of the those territories for many Jewish people needs to be considered, along with a the threat to homeland security. Many Israelis are against occupation, but I would assume they're mostly liberal atheists with no regard for the historical religious value of those territories. The majority of posters in this thread are arguing from the political, social, and illegal side of the predicament for the Palestinians, and from that perspective alone it's very difficult to disagree. The only conclusion to hostilities that I can think of is some kind of truce, where Palestinians and Jews live in harmony in those areas, but this would be an anathema to Islam. It seems to all boil down to this factor; can all Muslim countries accept Israel as a state? If the answer is no, can the rest of the world appreciate the threat this poses to Israel?

“Muslims” do not hate “Jews”. Can we avoid talking in absolutes?
 
Europe (in general) still pays them to this day for the atrocities committed, despite so many countries not having to do anything with the genocide itself. Add to the fact that it was Britain who kind of brought them back to the middle-east and eventually erupted this conflict since 48. There have been way more atrocities committed across the globe (armenian genocide, cambodian genocide) but nobody admits/mentions them, Belgium alone killed half of the cambodian population yet nobody nags about it. Israel is so good at playing the victim role and having been doing so for around 60-70 years now, time to wake up.
Genocides around the globe subsequently have been largely ignored by the West as it wasn’t economically suitable. That’s not on Israel. So I really don’t know why you are taking the self righteous stance unless you clearly have an agenda against Israel.

We’ve been here before with this crap. Israel is here to stay and it matters not one jot whether you or anyone think they don’t have a right to exist or whether you think the Balfour agreement was wrong...it’s approaching nearly 100 years that it was agreed, we can’t be disputing it for another 100 years or there will be no peace.

There have been atrocities committed by both sides and both sides are guilty of acts of terrorism whether it’s state sponsored or otherwise
 
“Muslims” do not hate “Jews”. Can we avoid talking in absolutes?
He was right though in that the states around Israel including the Palestinians refusal to acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist is a real problem. Some of the rhetoric about the destruction of the nation that has emanated from Palestinian leaders has only elicited a similar response from hard line Isrealis. It’s not going to change unless they can both accept each other
 
He was right though in that the states around Israel including the Palestinians refusal to acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist is a real problem. Some of the rhetoric about the destruction of the nation that has emanated from Palestinian leaders has only elicited a similar response from hard line Isrealis. It’s not going to change unless they can both accept each other

Both Jordan and Egypt, Israels biggest neighbours, have recognised Israel diplomatically. Lebanon and Syria haven't though.
 
Genocides around the globe subsequently have been largely ignored by the West as it wasn’t economically suitable. That’s not on Israel. So I really don’t know why you are taking the self righteous stance unless you clearly have an agenda against Israel.

We’ve been here before with this crap. Israel is here to stay and it matters not one jot whether you or anyone think they don’t have a right to exist or whether you think the Balfour agreement was wrong...it’s approaching nearly 100 years that it was agreed, we can’t be disputing it for another 100 years or there will be no peace.

There have been atrocities committed by both sides and both sides are guilty of acts of terrorism whether it’s state sponsored or otherwise

You don't need an agenda to classify Israel as a terrorist country for all it has done against the palestinians/arabs in general across the years. There was no country called Israel, it was just the jewish who were cast out from Europe (through the Belfour agreement) that came back and were like yeah's let's start our own country because the brits promised us we can reclaim the lands we lost when we were living in Palestine.
 
Yeah.... and anyone defends the actions of a terrorist organisation has the morale high ground. Now, I've heard it all :lol:

We can have a separate discussion on the morality of Hamas' actions and rockets but please let's not create a false equivalence.

What we're seeing isn't a clash or a conflict, it's an act of aggression by one of the most powerful military states in the world directed against the ethnic population they are occupying, and roaming gangs of far right extremists in Israeli cities lynching Arabs with impunity and endorsement from their state and police.

By all means let's have a separate discussion on the tactics of Hamas, but to create an equivalence between the aggression of an occupying power and the tactics of defence from their victims is an insult to the decades of Palestinian suffering.
 
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He was right though in that the states around Israel including the Palestinians refusal to acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist is a real problem. Some of the rhetoric about the destruction of the nation that has emanated from Palestinian leaders has only elicited a similar response from hard line Isrealis. It’s not going to change unless they can both accept each other
I think things have changed a lot recently, it's an open secret the Saudi's don't have an issue with Israel same with the UAE. It's only really the Iranian aligned states that are opnely against Israel.
 
You don't need an agenda to classify Israel as a terrorist country for all it has done against the palestinians/arabs in general across the years. There was no country called Israel, it was just the jewish who were cast out from Europe (through the Belfour agreement) that came back and were like yeah's let's start our own country because the brits promised us we can reclaim the lands we lost when we were living in Palestine.


How can Judaism mean anything if the Jews do not have a claim on land they consider to be their spiritual home, and which they believe was given them by God?
They were scattered throughout the world, and then persecuted with an intent to wipe them out. The Jews believe that it is God's will for them to be gathered again, and that this has all been divinely arranged.
 
How can Judaism mean anything if the Jews do not have a claim on land they consider to be their spiritual home, and which they believe was given them by God?
They were scattered throughout the world, and then persecuted with an intent to wipe them out. The Jews believe that it is God's will for them to be gathered again, and that this has all been divinely arranged.

The divinely arranged one made me laugh, so Israel wants to be a secular state but be built based on religious belief and a promise from God that they have the right to have their own country even if it means killing other people for the sake of it? Maybe it was actually God's punishment bestowed on the Jewish people that they will never find rest? I mean look at them, keep on building walls and buying the most advanced equipment (military etc) cameras everywhere, drones and a few plastic-made rockets cause them to shit their pants. Imagine what would happen if they get fought with the same level of weapons they use. To me, if that nation is God's chosen people, then God is weak.
 
Maybe it was actually God's punishment bestowed on the Jewish people that they will never find rest?

Israel actually always ranks near the very top of happiness indexes. It stands out among the other top ranking nations because of the strife that you mention. It makes it an interesting case study but I'd imagine that the common sense of identity and purpose there is a big factor in the contentedness of the people.
 
How can Judaism mean anything if the Jews do not have a claim on land they consider to be their spiritual home, and which they believe was given them by God?
They were scattered throughout the world, and then persecuted with an intent to wipe them out. The Jews believe that it is God's will for them to be gathered again, and that this has all been divinely arranged.
Wow. When you're allowing a book written around 3000 years ago to dictate the on going geopolitical landscape of the middle east, I don't think your opinion is as valid as you think it is.
 
The divinely arranged one made me laugh, so Israel wants to be a secular state but be built based on religious belief and a promise from God that they have the right to have their own country even if it means killing other people for the sake of it? Maybe it was actually God's punishment bestowed on the Jewish people that they will never find rest? I mean look at them, keep on building walls and buying the most advanced equipment (military etc) cameras everywhere, drones and a few plastic-made rockets cause them to shit their pants. Imagine what would happen if they get fought with the same level of weapons they use. To me, if that nation is God's chosen people, then God is weak.

Regardless of what you think of the religion, and the God of that religion, it's obviously sacred to practicing Jews. I don't think anyone would just assume they randomly laid their hat there in 1948.
 
This seems like the equivalent of an adult bullying a child for their whole lives, causing the child to attempt to slap the adult in the leg at some point, only for the adult to then thump the child across the face and claim "they started it". Is there more to it than that? The irony of a group of Jews doing this to another set of people surely can't be lost on most.
 
Israel actually always ranks near the very top of happiness indexes. It stands out among the other top ranking nations because of the strife that you mention. It makes it an interesting case study but I'd imagine that the common sense of identity and purpose there is a big factor in the contentedness of the people.

I mean finding rest in actually having a safe state where they can live normally without the need to have so much military/control/drones watching their skies 24/7, for me it's like living in a prison with an open roof but if it makes them happy then okay...
 
Regardless of what you think of the religion, and the God of that religion, it's obviously sacred to practicing Jews. I don't think anyone would just assume they randomly laid their hat there in 1948.

I have nothing against their religion, same for christianity/islam. People are free to believe what they want to believe, but if we argue based on religion, then if they indeed contributed/had a direct say in the killing of God's son (according to christianity) then you would think God would punish them somehow?
 
Israel actually always ranks near the very top of happiness indexes. It stands out among the other top ranking nations because of the strife that you mention. It makes it an interesting case study but I'd imagine that the common sense of identity and purpose there is a big factor in the contentedness of the people.
There's fairly obvious reasons for that though? They're given tax breaks, tax free imports, accommodation, financial assistance, free courses, free transports in terms of services to relocate back to Israel. And then on top of that they can pretty much act with impunity once they're there.
 
How can Judaism mean anything if the Jews do not have a claim on land they consider to be their spiritual home, and which they believe was given them by God?
They were scattered throughout the world, and then persecuted with an intent to wipe them out. The Jews believe that it is God's will for them to be gathered again, and that this has all been divinely arranged.

I'm a bit rusty on the topic, so maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

However isn't one of the arguments against Zionism from orthodox Jews that the current Israel is a rebellion against God?

I'd have to Google the topic as a refresher but wasn't it Haredi Jews? Also wasn't it a very large percentage of these, 80% if I recall, who were killed in the Holocaust?
 
How can Judaism mean anything if the Jews do not have a claim on land they consider to be their spiritual home, and which they believe was given them by God?
They were scattered throughout the world, and then persecuted with an intent to wipe them out. The Jews believe that it is God's will for them to be gathered again, and that this has all been divinely arranged.
:lol:
 
This seems like the equivalent of an adult bullying a child for their whole lives, causing the child to attempt to slap the adult in the leg at some point, only for the adult to then thump the child across the face and claim "they started it". Is there more to it than that? The irony of a group of Jews doing this to another set of people surely can't be lost on most.

It's only 'lost on most' when you edit out context.

No mention of the genocidal wars the surrounding Arabs started to destroy the Jews, no mention of the Grand Mufti's / Hitlers plan to rid the remaining Jews from the Middle East BEFORE Israel was established , no mention of the 800,000 Jews ethnically cleansed from Iraq, Yemen etc

The Palestinian cause - officially born in 1964 - was just a spearhead to succeed where the Arab armies had not.

The refugees were purely the outcome of Arab aggression, not the simplified irony you talk of.
 
Remind me again, why is a 2-state solution not viable?

Simple, to get to the 2-state solution, you need more countries to acknowledge Palestine as a state first of all (the USA for one doesn't recognize it), and second, the Zionist aspect in Israel and the extreme Sunni aspect (Hamas) in Palestine would never want that, either one-side domination or nothing at all and plus I think it would be really difficult for any population to accept another one who's been killing them since 1948, taking their lands, expanding in their own territories, desecrating their religious places etc.
 
Simple, to get to the 2-state solution, you need more countries to acknowledge Palestine as a state first of all (the USA for one doesn't recognize it), and second, the Zionist aspect in Israel and the extreme Sunni aspect (Hamas) in Palestine would never want that, either one-side domination or nothing at all and plus I think it would be really difficult for any population to accept another one who's been killing them since 1948, taking their lands, expanding in their own territories, desecrating their religious places etc.
Okay...it just reminds me a bit of the British India partition into Pakistan & India.
 
It's only 'lost on most' when you edit out context.

No mention of the genocidal wars the surrounding Arabs started to destroy the Jews, no mention of the Grand Mufti's / Hitlers plan to rid the remaining Jews from the Middle East BEFORE Israel was established , no mention of the 800,000 Jews ethnically cleansed from Iraq, Yemen etc

The Palestinian cause - officially born in 1964 - was just a spearhead to succeed where the Arab armies had not.

The refugees were purely the outcome of Arab aggression, not the simplified irony you talk of.
So it's ok for your country to do this, because people tried to do it to you in the past. Makes sense.
 
Human Rights Watch said:
About 6.8 million Jewish Israelis and 6.8 million Palestinians live today between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan River, an area encompassing Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT), the latter made up of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip. Throughout most of this area, Israel is the sole governing power; in the remainder, it exercises primary authority alongside limited Palestinian self-rule. Across these areas and in most aspects of life, Israeli authorities methodically privilege Jewish Israelis and discriminate against Palestinians. Laws, policies, and statements by leading Israeli officials make plain that the objective of maintaining Jewish Israeli control over demographics, political power, and land has long guided government policy. In pursuit of this goal, authorities have dispossessed, confined, forcibly separated, and subjugated Palestinians by virtue of their identity to varying degrees of intensity. In certain areas, as described in this report, these deprivations are so severe that they amount to the crimes against humanity of apartheid and persecution.


Several widely held assumptions, including that the occupation is temporary, that the “peace process” will soon bring an end to Israeli abuses, that Palestinians have meaningful control over their lives in the West Bank and Gaza, and that Israel is an egalitarian democracy inside its borders, have obscured the reality of Israel’s entrenched discriminatory rule over Palestinians. Israel has maintained military rule over some portion of the Palestinian population for all but six months of its 73-year history. It did so over the vast majority of Palestinians inside Israel from 1948 and until 1966. From 1967 until the present, it has militarily ruled over Palestinians in the OPT, excluding East Jerusalem. By contrast, it has since its founding governed all Jewish Israelis, including settlers in the OPT since the beginning of the occupation in 1967, under its more rights-respecting civil law.

International criminal law has developed two crimes against humanity for situations of systematic discrimination and repression: apartheid and persecution. Crimes against humanity stand among the most odious crimes in international law.


The international community has over the years detached the term apartheid from its original South African context, developed a universal legal prohibition against its practice, and recognized it as a crime against humanity with definitions provided in the 1973 International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid (“Apartheid Convention”) and the 1998 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC).


The crime against humanity of persecution, also set out in the Rome Statute, the intentional and severe deprivation of fundamental rights on racial, ethnic, and other grounds, grew out of the post-World War II trials and constitutes one of the most serious international crimes, of the same gravity as apartheid.