Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Nogbadthebad]

It was the US that brokered most of the deal, specifically the White House and.CIA, with the Qataris being used as the intermediary to Hamas.

I'd temper that argument with biden sending israel 15 billion dollars worth of weapons this month.

The only reason they can do this stuff, is because of US support. Israel has F35's in the air, with the US painting targets for them via drones.

 

[Kaos]

Being pro-Palestinian is conflated as pro-Hamas in many circles in the US at the moment, especially around the entertainment industry.

Which is utterly ludicrous. Couple that to billionaires demanding a blacklist of student protestors as well as legislating to ban the BDS movement, the US is alarmingly moving towards soviet levels of censorship when it comes to the issue of Israel.

 

[Nogbadthebad]

Actors and people of that fame can make a difference with their words/thoughts etc and are being silenced. The same happened wit hthe BBC coverage of the Scottish BAFTAs. The presenter and winners mentioned "free Palastine" and the BBC edited it out on their BBC iPlayer coverage.

Its not just silly. Its incredibly dangerous.

Because the oldest, most dangerous antisemitic trope of them all is that Jewish people control everything. Its the one the nazis used from the early 30's to demonise the Jewish population, preparing the German civilians to justify what they eventually did.

And this stuff plays right into precisely what the david ickes and the rest are still spouting today.

 

[Giggsy PO]

Actors and people of that fame can make a difference with their words/thoughts etc and are being silenced. The same happened wit hthe BBC coverage of the Scottish BAFTAs. The presenter and winners mentioned "free Palastine" and the BBC edited it out on their BBC iPlayer coverage.

Are they silenced indeed? Or they actually get more followers? Are the channels they spoke through closed? They can speak no more?

Are they silenced in the same way as Navalnyj is or Sentsov was?

 

[Kaos]

Its not just silly. Its incredibly dangerous.

Because the oldest, most dangerous antisemitic trope of them all is that Jewish people control everything. Its the one the nazis used from the early 30's to demonise the Jewish population, preparing the German civilians to justify what they eventually did.

And this stuff plays right into precisely what the david ickes and the rest are still spouting today.

A very important point indeed.

Global anti-semitism is worringly rife at the moment, what doesn't help is diluting the concern around it by conflating any condemnation of Israel's crimes as an endorsement of terrorism or anti-semitism. It also doesn't help when organisations like the ADL are also guilty of the same conflation while praising Elon Musk for muzzling pro Palestinian sentiments, the same Musk who himself had retweeted anti-semitic tropes to little concern or condemnation from the same organisation.

 

[Kaos]

Are they silenced indeed? Or they actually get more followers? Are the channels they spoke through closed? They can speak no more?

Are they silenced in the same way as Navalnyj is or Sentsov was?

You've had actors dropped from movies or their talent agencies because they had the sheer audacity to offer some form of solidarity with the suffering inflicted on the Palestinians. Just because they aren't being thrown into jail cells or being tortured doesn't mean they aren't being silenced. You can argue semantics all you like but the fact they're being punished for holding a view.

 

[RedC]

I'm not sure the goal posts have moved, it's more the nature of this war. A lot of the time you see two armies going at each other. In this case, the Hamas strategy is to use the civilian population as cover.

Article 52 of the Geneva convention says, "Civilian objects shall not be the object of attack or of reprisals. Civilian objects are all objects which are not military objectives as defined in paragraph 2. ..... military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage"

Article 8 of the ICC clarifies this, in relation to war crimes, that, "(ix) Intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not military objectives".

Does a large, running hospital become a legitimate target because intel suggests there may be something nefarious occurring inside part of it? I'm sure these are the grey areas Israel are taking advantage of, but to me the answer still remains no.

With no proper 3rd party assessments of anything, they can claim whatever they want, essentially.

 

[Raoul]

I'd temper that argument with biden sending israel 15 billion dollars worth of weapons this month.

The only reason they can do this stuff, is because of US support. Israel has F35's in the air, with the US painting targets for them via drones.

The 14 billion package to Israel hasn't actually happened yet. Its still being debated in Congress alongside another 60b for Ukraine.

 

[Raoul]

Which is utterly ludicrous. Couple that to billionaires demanding a blacklist of student protestors as well as legislating to ban the BDS movement, the US is alarmingly moving towards soviet levels of censorship when it comes to the issue of Israel.

That's just the climate we're in at the moment. Very similar to post 9/11 in the US, but on a smaller scale. The only outliers being Gen Z college types and fringe leftists (basically the people you see at protests).

 

[That_Bloke]

Susan Sarandon was dropped from her talent agency for similar speech.

I'm absolutely shocked by the concerted will to silence any kind of criticism of Israel's policy in Palestine. I didn't expect the mainstream media in western Europe or the US to be balanced and boy, they didn't disappoint. Antisemitism and/or supporting Hamas is one thing, but to be fired or cancelled because one supports the Palestinian people or sometimes for even being Palestinian is absolute madness. Those are truly dark times.

In Leipzig (Germany) the Irish folk group Lankun's gig has been cancelled for showing support to the Palestinians. (They still sold out in Berlin, Hamburg and Cologne, to be fair)

Palestinian artist Emily Jacir's talk scheduled in Berlin was cancelled.

Palestinian author Adna Shibli's award ceremony in Frankfurt's Book Fair was cancelled. " Due to the war started by Hamas, under which millions of people in Israel and Palestine are suffering, the organizer Litprom e.V. is looking for a suitable format and setting for the event at a later point. Awarding the prize to Adania Shibli was never in question and Litprom firmly rejects the accusations and defamations made against the author and the novel in parts of the press as unfounded (she was unfairly slated by a part of the press, notably TAZ and Die Welt, two big newspapers in Germany, and labelled as antisemite)" .

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Are they silenced indeed? Or they actually get more followers? Are the channels they spoke through closed? They can speak no more?

Are they silenced in the same way as Navalnyj is or Sentsov was?

When someone's livelihood or future prospects are threatened because of what they say or may say... Yes, to me that is being silenced.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

I'm absolutely shocked by the concerted will to silence any kind of criticism of Israel's policy in Palestine. I didn't expect the mainstream media in western Europe or the US to be balanced and boy, they didn't disappoint. Anti-semitism and/or supporting Hamas is one thing, but to be fired or cancelled because one supports the Palestinian people or sometimes for even being Palestinian is absolute madness. Those are truly dark times.

In Leipzig (Germany) the irish folk group Lankun's gig has been cancelled for showing support to the Palestinians. (They still sold out in Berlin, Hamburg and Cologne, to be fair)

Palestinian artist Emily Jacir's talk scheduled in Berlin was cancelled.

Palestinian author Adna Shibli's award ceremony in Frankfurt's Book Fair was cancelled. " Due to the war started by Hamas, under which millions of people in Israel and Palestine are suffering, the organizer Litprom e.V. is looking for a suitable format and setting for the event at a later point. Awarding the prize to Adania Shibli was never in question and Litprom firmly rejects the accusations and defamations made against the author and the novel in parts of the press as unfounded (she was unfairly slated by a part of the press, notably TAZ and Die Welt, two big newspapers in Germany, and labelled as anti-semite)" .

You can always count on the Germans to be the worst balanced. They never disappoint.

 

[The United]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/21/politics/negotiations-israel-hamas-hostages/index.html

Even though it is good for some, but the attack will resume after a few days. I am not sure why Hamas would agree to that unless there are a few major details that we are missing.

 

[Kaos]

I'm not sure the goal posts have moved, it's more the nature of this war. A lot of the time you see two armies going at each other. In this case, the Hamas strategy is to use the civilian population as cover.

Article 52 of the Geneva convention says, "Civilian objects shall not be the object of attack or of reprisals. Civilian objects are all objects which are not military objectives as defined in paragraph 2. ..... military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage"

Article 8 of the ICC clarifies this, in relation to war crimes, that, "(ix) Intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not military objectives".

I'm nitpicking here a little bit, but let me interrogate the bolded bit.

We're constantly hearing this notion of Hamas deliberately using civilians as cover as if it were their modus operandi in conflict. However considering the nature of the battleground and Hamas' area of operations - i.e Gaza, a densely populated and very small territory, where else would you expect to find Hamas combatants? Because I'd very much doubt they'd be as naïve as to conveniently line up on an open field somewhere where they'd be easy pickings. They don't have a conventional military with an airforce, navy or anything remotely rivalling Israel's prowess, so you'd assume they'd be leveraging a guerrilla campaign.

Furthermore, let's assume they were hiding underneath the hospital (which as we know has yet to be proven). Does that still make the hospital a morally legitimate target? Especially if no ordnance or munitions have been fired from the hospital - hence the hospital site itself being of no threat to the Israelis?

 

[Raoul]

When someone's livelihood or future prospects are threatened because of what they say or may say... Yes, to me that is being silenced.

I disagree with what happened to her, but there is a certain risk one takes on board when becoming a public, political advocate for controversial issues, at which point employers or perspective employers and/or business associates have the right decline working with said person.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

Are they silenced indeed? Or they actually get more followers? Are the channels they spoke through closed? They can speak no more?

Are they silenced in the same way as Navalnyj is or Sentsov was?

Do you think other actors and Hollywood people will be coming out to say anything even remotely in favour of Palestine after this. Of course not, unless they want to get fired.

 

[Giggsy PO]

You've had actors dropped from movies or their talent agencies because they had the sheer audacity to offer some form of solidarity with the suffering inflicted on the Palestinians. Just because they aren't being thrown into jail cells or being tortured doesn't mean they aren't being silenced. You can argue semantics all you like but the fact they're being punished for holding a view.

Well, the semantics or words are important indeed.

If they are punished for expression of solidarity, that is of course wrong. If they are punished for holding antisemitic views, that is a completely different issue. Until it is established exactly who said what there is no point in passing judgement.

If there are repercussions in their business relations, it is between them and the other contractual party (like movie/tv studios). But they are not being silenced. They in fact get more traffic and their voice is heard more.

 

[stevoc]

It’s definitely made much easier when one’s country serves as the de facto Airbnb for Hamas leadership. MBS tried his own gimmick to appear relevant by hosting an Arab summit a few weeks ago, which yielded nothing because the two main players (Israel and the US) weren’t involved, which ended up making the event little more than a PR exercise where regional Arab leaders made it look as if they were doing something to assuage their domestic protests.

Oh no doubt mate, I'm just saying MBS has never came across as the sharpest knife in the drawer.

 

[stevoc]

Am I missing something? From what I've read none of what the aforementioned have tweeted is remotely antisemitic. Or have the US just given up pretending that free speech is a thing?

For a lot of people (including that production company it seems) anything remotely critical of Israel and it's actions is tantamount to antisemitism.

 

[Nogbadthebad]

I disagree with what happened to her, but there is a certain risk one takes on board when become a public, political advocate for controversial issues, at which point employers or perspective employers and/or business associates have the right decline working with said person.

Neither Amy Schumer or the Stranger Things kid have suffered any consequences for far more robust backing of Israel.

 

[Kaos]

Well, the semantics or words are important indeed.

If they are punished for expression of solidarity, that is of course wrong. If they are punished for holding antisemitic views, that is a completely different issue. Until it is established exactly who said what there is no point in passing judgement.

If there are repercussions in their business relations, it is between them and the other contractual party (like movie/tv studios). But they are not being silenced. They in fact get more traffic and their voice is heard more.

It is silencing if what they say has an undesirable effect to their livelihoods to the extent it deters others from sharing similar sentiments at fear of their own livelihoods.

In Iran, Syria or Putin's Russia you get thrown into jail or lose your life if you say the 'wrong' things. In the US you lose your job and are blacklisted. Granted there's no equivalence in terms of the severity of the repercussions, but its the same principle.

Of course if what they say is objectively deemed anti-semitic, then it should rightly be punished. However none of these recent examples remotely allude to anti-semitic sentiment. These actors have merely expressed solidarity for the Palestinians and at worst labelled Israel's actions as genocidal, which while a strong subjective take on it, hardly brushes with antisemitic rhetoric.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

I disagree with what happened to her, but there is a certain risk one takes on board when become a public, political advocate for controversial issues, at which point employers or perspective employers and/or business associates have the right decline working with said person.

I just find it interesting that these people got dropped/punished but Amy Schumer and Gal Gadot are doing just fine. Surely that's a double standard?

 

[Raoul]

Neither Amy Schumer or the Stranger Things kid have suffered any consequences for far more robust backing of Israel.

I just find it interesting that these people got dropped/punished but Amy Schumer and Gal Gadot are doing just fine. Surely that's a double standard?

Because its a social norm in the US to back Israel, which deductively means supporting the Palestinians is viewed as being anti-Israel, and thus going against social norms (the only exceptions being the two groups I listed above and various Arab-American groups).

 

[Giggsy PO]

Do you think other actors and Hollywood people will be coming out to say anything even remotely in favour of Palestine after this. Of course not, unless they want to get fired.

Again, it depends what they actually say.

Look at what Marc Ruffalo said:

Hollywood actor Mark Ruffalo slammed Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for calling Palestinians “collateral damage”. Speaking at NBC’s Meet the Press, Netanyahu said, “We’re deliberately doing everything in our power to target the terrorists. And the civilians, as happens in every legitimate war, are sometimes what are called ‘collateral damage.’ That’s a longer way of saying unintended casualties.” In response to his statement, Ruffalo took to social media and shared, “No. Sorry. They are not ‘collateral damage’ they are human beings who happen to have been born there and live there and most of those human beings are stuck there. Have some compassion, they are Palestinians not buildings or roads or things, they are human beings and so are the hostages whose lives you may also be destroying. They aren’t ‘collateral damage’ either.”

I highly doubt he will have any problems. He speaks clearly in favour of Palestine. And any sane person will agree with his message.

 

[Raoul]

I'm nitpicking here a little bit, but let me interrogate the bolded bit.

We're constantly hearing this notion of Hamas deliberately using civilians as cover as if it were their modus operandi in conflict. However considering the nature of the battleground and Hamas' area of operations - i.e Gaza, a densely populated and very small territory, where else would you expect to find Hamas combatants? Because I'd very much doubt they'd be as naïve as to conveniently line up on an open field somewhere where they'd be easy pickings. They don't have a conventional military with an airforce, navy or anything remotely rivalling Israel's prowess, so you'd assume they'd be leveraging a guerrilla campaign.

What you're saying is correct and in some ways, you're making Nick's point for him. Hamas are a non-state actor paramilitary group who use insurgent, paramilitary type tactics to their advantage against a well armed and trained opposition with far more sophisticated weapons. So why wouldn't they utilize everything from hostage taking, tunnels, bunkers, masking their command and control apparatus behind civilian infrastructure and all of the rest of it, to their advantage ? They are simply doing what they can to stack the odds in their favor against a far superior opposition, so maybe its time to simply come to terms with their tactics, because that's all they have to work with.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

Again, it depends what they actually say.

Look at what Marc Ruffalo said:



I highly doubt he will have any problems. He speaks clearly in favour of Palestine. And any sane person will agree with his message.

That is a fair point and there a fair few who have asked for a cease fire as well. My wording should have been any criticism of Israel is a no go for Hollywood which is still wrong. I didn't find anything I read in the BBC article to be antisemitic.

 

[Kaos]

What you're saying is correct and in some ways, you're making Nick's point for him. Hamas are a non-state actor paramilitary group who use insurgent, paramilitary type tactics to their advantage against a well armed and trained opposition with far more sophisticated weapons. So why wouldn't they utilize everything from hostage taking, tunnels, bunkers, masking their command and control apparatus behind civilian infrastructure and all of the rest of it, to their advantage ? They are simply doing what they can to stack the odds in their favor against a far superior opposition, so maybe its time to simply come to terms with their tactics, because that's all they have to work with.

I mean assuming that's their plan it clearly doesn't work. They know (well before this latest exchange) that Israel isn't deterred from attacking civilian infrastructure, so they'd know that no where in particular is safe from them. Knowing Israel's shoot first policy and complete aversion to preventing civilian casualties, there's no benefit to Hamas hiding anywhere in particular. And besides the point, it doesn't make a hospital a morally legitimate target, especially if the hospital itself isn't being used as a site to launch attacks.

 

[JagUTD]

I think it's beggar's belief to think that anyone with multiple brain cells would set up the command centre for the whole operation in a bunker that they know Israel have the exact location of(because they built it).

Whether it was used by Hamas or not, it's hardly uncommon for enemy infrastructure, weapons and other equipment to be repurposed.

And the fact the Israel know about it isn't necessarily a negative for Hamas. In fact, it would be quite clever of them to have used it in order to deceive Israeli intelligence and hide their real base of operations.

I'm not saying that's what they did either.

 

[Nogbadthebad]

Because its a social norm in the US to back Israel, which deductively means supporting the Palestinians is viewed as being anti-Israel, and thus going against social norms (the only exceptions being the two groups I listed above and various Arab-American groups).

I do understand, support of Israel is entrenched, and for good reason too. When we in the UK were turning away Jewish immigrants in the thirties, the US embraced them.

But that noah lad is running around hollywood putting up stickers about every Palestinian is hammas and such nonsense.

Compared to what he did, and the awful stuff schumer posted, in which she said people asking for a ceasefire were baby rapists, among other stuff, the people actually suffering consequences seem very tame.

It is jarring to see how different the responses are, and as I said earlier, I think its a dangerous situation that plays into the conspiracy theorists hands.

 

[Idxomer]

Neither Amy Schumer or the Stranger Things kid have suffered any consequences for far more robust backing of Israel.

or someone who says stuff like this

 

[Giggsy PO]

That is a fair point and there a fair few who have asked for a cease fire as well. My wording should have been any criticism of Israel is a no go for Hollywood which is still wrong. I didn't find anything I read in the BBC article to be antisemitic.

And I think everybody would agree with your wording above.

IMO the BBC article is inclusive at best. There are just interpretations. We have the interpretation of production company which says it was antisemitic. But we have just a few snippets/words of what the actress actually said.

 

[RedC]

Whether it was used by Hamas or not, it's hardly uncommon for enemy infrastructure, weapons and other equipment to be repurposed.

And the fact the Israel know about it isn't necessarily a negative for Hamas. In fact, it would be quite clever of them to have used it in order to deceive Israeli intelligence and hide their real base of operations.

I'm not saying that's what they did either.

You're arguing against a point I didn't make, I simply said that there is no way they would have made the place their main command centre. I have zero doubt they are using various places like hospitals in some capacity, it doesn't excuse what is going on in terms of targeting, though.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Am I missing something? From what I've read none of what the aforementioned have tweeted is remotely antisemitic. Or have the US just given up pretending that free speech is a thing?

It's because of the claim of genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Pro-Israeli people understand that this association with words like "genocide", "ethnic cleansing", "apartheid", is extremely damaging and are clamping down on it as hard as humanly possible.

 

[harms]

Are they silenced in the same way as Navalnyj is or Sentsov was?

No one calls those cases cancel culture though?

 

[Idxomer]

"And there was some concern in the administration about an unintended consequence of the pause: that it would allow journalists broader access to Gaza and the opportunity to further illuminate the devastation there and turn public opinion on Israel."

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/21/biden-hostage-israel-hamas-war-00128351

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Are they silenced in the same way as Navalnyj is or Sentsov was?

I think the more relevant example, at least in this thread, are the dozens of Palestinian journalists that the IDF has killed by blowing them up in their homes.

 

[Idxomer]

I think the more relevant example are the dozens of Palestinian journalists that the IDF has killed by blowing them up in their homes.

Don't forget about Lebanese journalists and reporters who also have been targeted and killed though in this instance they don't also murder their whole families.

 

[JagUTD]

You're arguing against a point I didn't make, I simply said that there is no way they would have made the place their main command centre. I have zero doubt they are using various places like hospitals in some capacity, it doesn't excuse what is going on in terms of targeting, though.

I wasn't arguing, just making an additional point.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

So I've been talking to a newbie member of the forum who lives in Tel Aviv and is pro-Israeli and a supporter of Netanyahu (for context).

I don't want to name them in case they don't want to be named but they wanted me to ask the below here and get people's thoughts/opinions:

And lastly, if you can do me a small favor - Can you ask on the forum the pro-Palestinians (the Muslims) if Tel Aviv is occupied? And which rights Israelis have that Arabs-Israeli don't have? (after all, Israel is an apartheid state..)

Thanks.

 

[Beachryan]

Bernie speaking sense as ever: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/22/opinion/bernie-sanders-israel-gaza.html