Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Giggsyking said:
The argument was if Trump was any better, listening to those above, makes Trumps comment looks more balanced.
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This could also be applied to Democrats. Biden's policy is probably not very far off from what the R candidates are saying. He just doesn't talk about it as bombastically as they do.
 
Raoul said:
Point taken, but as mentioned above, this isn't an equal relationship. The power rests solely with the Israeli side, so any movement towards negotiations has to be built atop assurances they couldn't be attacked by a future Palestinian state. This is why Hamas being involved in any of this was never going to result in anything other than their own demise.
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Things should not be left to the Israelis and the Palestinians alone to solve it. In the past 2 decades there have not been enough international effort to solve the conflict. The US has the biggest responsibility to take a step backward from the blind support of Israel and act more in line with the interest of both the Palestinian and Israeli people and try to reach a just solution to the conflict.

If we say it starts with excluding Hamas and people like Netanyahu. And if Hamas is out of the picture say by next year, do you think anything will change in the lives of the Palestinians in Gaza or the WB? I really doubt that.
 
I'm not really sure why we're taking it as a given that Hamas is dead. It's probably going to happen, but it hasn't actually happened yet.
 
If we take a step back from the current terror attack and the reaction from Israel. It's important to acknowledge two things Hamas, palestinian religious extremists, the israeli far right and religious zionists are core obstacles for peace and they all prevent the existence of a peace process whether it is a single state or two state solution. They all need to be ostracized.

Now I believe that several things should happen and that the peace process should be started without any actual agreement between Israel and whoever currently represent Palestine simply because at this point in time neither can or should trust the other, both should demonstrate good faith for a long time before seating around the table and negotiate a final solution.

On the Israel front, in theory it shouldn't be too difficult. They need to apply normal moral and legal principles when it comes to israelis that commit crimes, if an israeli commit a crime against a palestinian he can't get away easily by just rushing to the closest checkpoint into Israel. If Israel is a democracy and a place where righteouness is valued then there is no obstable to the end of this apartheid. Their occupation should be benevolent instead of being oppressive.

On the Palestinian side elections needs to be organized whether Abbas wants it or not and Hamas should be banned forever, ideally a third party(the UN) would organize those elections and maybe a system of guardianship from an international organization should be implemented because from what I understand the reason Hamas would have any chance to be elected is due to the known and obvious high level of corruption within Fatah, that issue was a big topic in the mid 2000s and as far as I know nothing has changed or at least the image of Fatah and by extention the PA is still tainted.

The other thing which is very important for peace is that people need to have something to lose and the best thing to put in the balance is a nice, soft and comfortable life. The international community should try to increase the level of life in palestine and probably also in other neighboring countries.
 
Amidst all the shit that's been going on, and trying to avoid watching images and videos as best as I can,
and trying to somehow go on with life and do my job as a social worker and keeping with touch with friends and family...

[imagine for a moment what it's like to meet someone new and kissing them and sleeping with them,
knowing that at the exact same time some kid must have died, a building got demolished, a hostage is somewhere beneath the earh...
How the feck do you go about that? :/]


I browsed Youtube for football related content,
and somehow came across this little video,
that hurt me much more than any other video I saw from the Israeli side...

I don't know, I wanted to share it here. Don't mean it as point scoring.
Doesn't justify nor negate anything that happens in Gaza. just plain sad.

 
An exchange from October 31st, less than two weeks ago:

What adjective do you use to describe IDF officials who authorize the bombing of hospitals, refugee camps and other civilian infrastructure?
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Has anyone authorized the bombing of a hospital?
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Giggsyking said:
Things should not be left to the Israelis and the Palestinians alone to solve it. In the past 2 decades there have not been enough international effort to solve the conflict. The US has the biggest responsibility to take a step backward from the blind support of Israel and act more in line with the interest of both the Palestinian and Israeli people and try to reach a just solution to the conflict.

If we say it starts with excluding Hamas and people like Netanyahu. And if Hamas is out of the picture say by next year, do you think anything will change in the lives of the Palestinians in Gaza or the WB? I really doubt that.
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The USA are providing 14 billion dollars per year support for Israel. They are key to any peace.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
The USA are providing 14 billion dollars per year support for Israel. They are key to any peace.
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That's the recent package being discussed in congress. 2022 was 3bn as far as I can tell.

Israel's GDP is just shy of 500bn.
 
Israel has revised down the number of people killed during Hamas's 7 October attack to "about 1,200" from the earlier 1,400 figure.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Lior Haiat, said the revised number was because many bodies were not immediately identified after the attack, and "now we think those belong to terrorists... not Israeli casualties".
 
The number of people killed in Gaza by Israeli military actions since the start of the war on 7 October has risen to 11,078, including 4,506 children, according to the Hamas-run health ministry on Friday. Another 27,490 Palestinians in Gaza have been wounded, it said.
 
This is a decent, though lengthy, summary from Adam Shatz of the various elements that have produced the current situation. Well worth the read in full:

Vengeful Pathologies
 
Pintu said:
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That’s at least much much more than anyone of the extremely coward and hypocritical leaders of US, Germany or UK have come out with.
They keep telling the same lies “right to defence taking international humanitarian law into account” while Israel keeps bombing civilians, hospitals, mosques, schools, refugee camps, ambulances, medical staff and journalists.
 
That_Bloke said:
I really don't like to resort to Piers Morgan, but there's another interviewee one should listen to.

He's a Palestinian doctor who not only lost 25 members of his family since 7/10 but also three daughters and a niece in the 2009 Gaza War, when an Israeli tank shelled his home. Even then, he's still an advocate of peace and reconciliation, and an example of what it means to live as a Palestinian in Gaza.

"Listen to us, don't hear about us".

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These are the voices that need to be amplified.
 
JPRouve said:
Israel were an apartheid state and against a 2 state solution decades before Hamas was created, Hamas is the least supported group among palestinians and Israel is partially led by religious and zionist extremists who on average kill and injure more palestinians than palestinians kill or injure israeli.

I don't know if it answers your questions but that's the wider context.
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What year exactly did Israel turn into an apartheid state? 1948? Surely not. 1967?
 
Frosty said:
The number of people killed in Gaza by Israeli military actions since the start of the war on 7 October has risen to 11,078, including 4,506 children, according to the Hamas-run health ministry on Friday. Another 27,490 Palestinians in Gaza have been wounded, it said.
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oooh almost 10x, exciting!
 
Mihajlovic said:
What year exactly did Israel turn into an apartheid state? 1948? Surely not. 1967?
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Amnesty International believes that it's from the creation of Israel, before last year I would have said 1967 but an interview that I shared on this thread between two israelis made me realize that it could be 1948. And the following quote was a clue for me:

After all Zionism was the opening for the Jewish people to pursue a process of self-determination and that translated quickly into the need for sovereignty and access to power. I think that’s a good thing, but since 1948, and especially 1967, there’s no way to talk about sovereignty or power without talking about Palestinians, those over whom Israel is sovereign and those whom against Israel exercises state power.
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Mihajlovic said:
Damn. They were an apartheid state before they even had one.
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Shockingly the planning and ideology of the settler colony was being laid out before 1948

1923:

We cannot offer any adequate compensation to the Palestinian Arabs in return for Palestine. And therefore, there is no likelihood of any voluntary agreement being reached. So that all those who regard such an agreement as a condition sine qua non for Zionism may as well say "non" and withdraw from Zionism.
Zionist colonisation must either stop, or else pive population. Which means that it can proceed and develop only under the protection of a power that is independent of the native population – behind an iron wall, which the native population cannot breach.
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https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-iron-wall-quot

Alternative translation of the same part
Thus we conclude that we cannot promise anything to the Arabs of the Land of Israel or the Arab countries. Their voluntary agreement is out of the question. Hence those who hold that an agreement with the natives is an essential condition for Zionism can now say “no” and depart from Zionism. Zionist colonization, even the most restricted, must either be terminated or carried out in defiance of the will of the native population. This colonization can, therefore, continue and develop only under the protection of a force independent of the local population – an iron wall which the native population cannot break through. This is, in toto, our policy towards the Arabs. To formulate it any other way would only be hypocrisy.

Bonus, from 1896:

If His Majesty the Sultan were to give us Palestine, we could in return undertake to regulate the whole finances of Turkey. We should there form a portion of a rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism.
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https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-jewish-state-quot-theodor-herzl
 
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