Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[africanspur]

I asked a few days ago about a specific breakdown of the Gazan population, religious extremists suporting Hamas and IJ, non-religous but nationalist supporters vs non-supporters, secular/ Western oriented sympathizers, etc. It's often said Gazans are held hostage by Hamas. What exactly does that mean considering a mass of civilians participated in the 07.10 massacre. Does a Hamas fighter become a regular Gazan civilian when he takes off his uniform? How many regular, ordinary Gazans support Hamas and their ideology? How many civilians were dancing in the streets on 07.10 because they genuinely rejoiced in the murder of Jews vs those who were disgusted by the massacre yet danced anyway out of fear? Does Hamas value the lives of Gazan children? Do regular non-Hamas adult parents value the lives of their children when they teach them to hate and kill the Jews? How many regular folks would participate in committing attrocities given the opportunity? Explain why Hamas is building rockets right next to a school, and how does this fly with the parents, teacher, neighbours? Do they all support Hamas' cause, or are they dead-scared to protest? Are there hundred thousand Gazans that genuinely despise Hamas, or are there only 10,000? Are there a million Gazans who see Hamas as the main obstacle to peace and prosperity? Is a Gazan mother who curses the Jews and hands out candy whenever a Jew is murdered 'innocent'? And what exactly does that mean? Explain to me the complexities of the Gazan population, their ideology, their theology and eschatology, and how it all connects with their goals and aspirations.

If I felt you were actually debating in good faith, I'd make a go at genuinely answering all of this. God knows I've probably bored dozens of people in this thread as well as others over the years with my long posts. I've even done it with people who I suspect aren't debating in good faith but give them the benefit of the doubt.

You so clearly are not however that I guess I'll just give you the answer you want. They're sub human jihadis who deserve everything they're getting and more.

 

[Mihajlovic]

I don't know how you'd expect anyone to produce a meticulous demographical breakdown such as that. But it sounds like you're dangerously close to dehumanising the people of Gaza to the extent of holding them collectively accountable for the sheer human catastrophe they're currently being subjected to.

But to humour this line of thinking - let's say that a plurality in Gaza did support the terror attacks, does it for you justify the losses and suffering they're currently having to endure - including the many thousand women and children?

And conversely, would you deem it appropriate if you applied that same logic to the people of Israel? If for instance the town of Sderot consisted of nothing but those who actively call for the genocide of the Palestinian people, cheerleading the death of women and children - if the town were subjected to a relentless Hamas terror campaign leading to thousands dead, would you consider them unworthy of human concern?

That’s why I’m asking those questions. I do not care about preserving the life of any person that wants to kill me (unless such person can be arrested, prosecuted, and imprisoned). However, I do care about preserving the life of any person that hates me but would never have to intention to actually physically harm me. There’s nothing controversial about this. In this particular case we’re talking about Hamas fighters and (civilian) Hamas supporters. My belief is that every single Hamas fighter would want to kill me, given the opportunity. I don’t not care about their lives, in fact I want them gone. This leaves us with the question of civilians who support Hamas. Considering there were so many civilians who, together with Hamas fighters, crossed the border and participated in murder, rape, looting, do I care about preserving their lives? No, I do not (unless they can be arrested, prosecuted, and imprisoned, which would obviously never happen). Does this now mean I do not care about preserving the lives of civilians? Well obviously this depends on what kind of civilian you are. Here’s where I’m trying to understand the difference. Would you care about preserving the lives of 500 civilians who a.) have never engaged in combat, b.) at the same time support an organisation whose declared goal is the destruction of my country, c.) and who would also participate in murder, torture and rape given the opportunity? On any given day there are multitudes of civilians who kill their spouses, kidnap children, set fire to houses, commit mass murder in schools and cinemas… would you care about preserving their lives? Sure, if you have the chance to arrest, prosecute and imprison them, yes. Which is what civilised countries across the world are doing on daily basis. However, what do you do with particular groups of civilians who display all my previously listed characteristics a, b, and c?

Regarding children, of course I care about preserving the lives of all children, even if they’re uttering the most abhorrent nonsense from the age of 5 about how they want to kill the Yehud and die as a martyr. They don’t know any better because that’s what they have been brainwashed with. A five year old boy isn’t able to shoot a gun or fire a rocket and actually physically cause any harm. (Most they can do is throw rocks which, to be honest, my father would give me a beating for as it actually can cause death.)

 

[Kaos]

That’s why I’m asking those questions. I do not care about preserving the life of any person that wants to kill me. However, I do care about preserving the life of any person that hates me but would never have to intention to actually physically harm me. There’s nothing controversial about this. In this particular case we’re talking about Hamas fighters and (civilian) Hamas supporters. My belief is that every single Hamas fighter would want to kill me, given the opportunity. I don’t not care about their lives, in fact I want them gone. This leaves us with the question of civilians who support Hamas. Considering there were so many civilians who, together with Hamas fighters, crossed the border and participated in murder, rape, looting, do I care about preserving their lives? No, I do not. Does this now mean I do not care about preserving the lives of civilians? Well obviously this depends on what kind of civilian you are. Here’s where I’m trying to understand the difference. Would you care about preserving the lives of 500 civilians who a.) have never engaged in combat, b.) at the same time support an organisation whose declared goal is the destruction of my country, c.) and who would also participate in murder, torture and rape given the opportunity? On any given day there are multitudes of civilians who kill their spouses, kidnap children, set fire to houses, commit mass murder in schools and cinemas… would you care about preserving their lives? Sure, if you have the chance to arrest, prosecute and imprison them, yes. Which is what civilised countries across the world are doing on daily basis. However, what do you do with particular groups of civilians who display all my previously listed characteristics a, b, and c?

Regarding children, of course I care about preserving the lives of all children, even if they’re uttering the most abhorrent nonsense from the age of 5 about how they want to kill the Yehud and die as a martyr. They don’t know any better because that’s what they have been brainwashed with. A five year old boy isn’t able to shoot a gun or fire a rocket and actually physically cause any harm. (Most they can do is throw rocks which, to be honest, my father would give me a beating for as it actually can cause death.)

I'm not sure I understand your underlying point. Are you suggesting that any sympathy or objection to the killing of thousands of people should be conditional on the fact we could 100% ascertain that the majority of them don't endorse terrorism?

 

[Brown Toothpick]

The fecking Israeli PM spokesman blatantly lying and posting an old short film as propaganda..

 

[HTG]

That does not sound very credible.

Why?

 

[Idxomer]

The fecking Israeli PM spokesman blatantly lying and posting an old short film as propaganda..

You could make a book out of the lies coming out of their officials since their bombing started. It's also nothing new, they have always done that.

 

[groovyalbert]

Can't imagine the reality of this will look much different to what's already going on. More an attempt to redefine the current image/win back any wavering support.

 

[Raoul]

Can't imagine the reality of this will look much different to what's already going on. More an attempt to redefine the current image/win back any wavering support.

Agreed. There are probably pockets of time where fighting abates for a period, so all this does is formalize it a bit and provide for a window for supplies to reach people and more people to go south.

 

[The Corinthian]

That’s why I’m asking those questions. I do not care about preserving the life of any person that wants to kill me (unless such person can be arrested, prosecuted, and imprisoned). However, I do care about preserving the life of any person that hates me but would never have to intention to actually physically harm me. There’s nothing controversial about this. In this particular case we’re talking about Hamas fighters and (civilian) Hamas supporters. My belief is that every single Hamas fighter would want to kill me, given the opportunity. I don’t not care about their lives, in fact I want them gone. This leaves us with the question of civilians who support Hamas. Considering there were so many civilians who, together with Hamas fighters, crossed the border and participated in murder, rape, looting, do I care about preserving their lives? No, I do not (unless they can be arrested, prosecuted, and imprisoned, which would obviously never happen). Does this now mean I do not care about preserving the lives of civilians? Well obviously this depends on what kind of civilian you are. Here’s where I’m trying to understand the difference. Would you care about preserving the lives of 500 civilians who a.) have never engaged in combat, b.) at the same time support an organisation whose declared goal is the destruction of my country, c.) and who would also participate in murder, torture and rape given the opportunity? On any given day there are multitudes of civilians who kill their spouses, kidnap children, set fire to houses, commit mass murder in schools and cinemas… would you care about preserving their lives? Sure, if you have the chance to arrest, prosecute and imprison them, yes. Which is what civilised countries across the world are doing on daily basis. However, what do you do with particular groups of civilians who display all my previously listed characteristics a, b, and c?

Regarding children, of course I care about preserving the lives of all children, even if they’re uttering the most abhorrent nonsense from the age of 5 about how they want to kill the Yehud and die as a martyr. They don’t know any better because that’s what they have been brainwashed with. A five year old boy isn’t able to shoot a gun or fire a rocket and actually physically cause any harm. (Most they can do is throw rocks which, to be honest, my father would give me a beating for as it actually can cause death.)

I'm not going to read all of that because it's pretty idiotic - I only made it to the 6th sentence, but why would Hamas want to kill you?

 

[Giggsyking]

One way to demonstrate the falseness of that statement is a Palestinian uprising against Hamas. 2 million Gazans subduing 25000 Hamas fighters sounds doable. 2 million Gazans starting a revolution, cementing every single tunnel entrance, masses and masses of people overpowering Hamas military and security, releasing all hostages, capturing and prosecuting all Hamas killers...

 

[MDFC Manager]

10 more Palestinians killed in the West Bank by the terrorist army of Israel.

 

[Badunk]

This one any better?

 

[Raoul]

This one any better?

This may provide a bit of context.

 

[Badunk]

This may provide a bit of context.

Duly noted, thanks.

 

[JPRouve]

I'm not going to read all of that because it's pretty idiotic - I only made it to the 6th sentence, but why would Hamas want to kill you?

It's not idiotic because it creates a possible yet unverifiable premise that demonizes gazans. The only thing I know is that in 2023, Hamas was the list supported group among palestinians whether they are from Gaza or the West Bank, also most gazans were in favor of peace.

The article about the most recent poll has been updated.

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org...gainst-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah

According to the latest Washington Institute polling, conducted in July 2023, Hamas’s decision to break the ceasefire was not a popular move. While the majority of Gazans (65%) did think it likely that there would be “a large military conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza” this year, a similar percentage (62%) supported Hamas maintaining a ceasefire with Israel. Moreover, half (50%) agreed with the following proposal: “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders.” Moreover, across the region, Hamas has lost popularity over time among many Arab publics. This decline in popularity may have been one of the motivating factors behind the group’s decision to attack.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[VorZakone]

 

[JagUTD]

We know Israel tortures Palestinian detainees. Videos of detained Hamas fighters confirming all claims used by Israel to justify bombing civilians are worth about as much as a pot of my piss.

Is it just Israel or those subject to Israeli "interrogation" making these claims though?

Of course if it is true, then the sad reality is that it allows Israel to justify their actions from a legal perspective at least.

 

[HTG]

Disastrous and by no means a coincidence. The last newsletter from Reporters sans frontières was a horrible read.

 

[RedTiger]

10 more Palestinians killed in the West Bank by the terrorist army of Israel.

Their own fault for sticking around and acting as human shields when the settlers told them to leave.

 

[The Corinthian]

It's not idiotic because it creates a possible yet unverifiable premise that demonizes gazans. The only thing I know is that in 2023, Hamas was the list supported group among palestinians whether they are from Gaza or the West Bank, also most gazans were in favor of peace.

The article about the most recent poll has been updated.

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org...gainst-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah

It doesn't make sense though - the guy is a Eastern European Christian going by his history. Why would he consider himself an enemy of Hamas? It doesn't make any sense.

We've had the usual tropes in this thread of how Hamas would want to kill 'every Israeli' (which is another debate), but why would they care about an Eastern European Christian?

 

[Giggsyking]

He thinks this is Braveheart or something.

If I tried to make any of the same conclusions in the Ukraine thread, justifying Russia's actions, I'd be (rightly) threadbanned

I actually laughed at his logic, I thought he was being sarcastic at the beginning, but then realised he is being serious.

 

[Raven]

One way to demonstrate the falseness of that statement is a Palestinian uprising against Hamas. 2 million Gazans subduing 25000 Hamas fighters sounds doable. 2 million Gazans starting a revolution, cementing every single tunnel entrance, masses and masses of people overpowering Hamas military and security, releasing all hostages, capturing and prosecuting all Hamas killers...

Does this mean that Israeli citizens are at fault for October 7th because they both voted in and haven't revolted against the government responsible for apartheid and ethnic cleansing?

 

[JPRouve]

It doesn't make sense though - the guy is a Eastern European Christian going by his history. Why would he consider himself an enemy of Hamas? It doesn't make any sense.

We've had the usual tropes in this thread of how Hamas would want to kill 'every Israeli' (which is another debate), but why would they care about an Eastern European Christian?

I believe that he was taking the position of an israeli jewish. It's not him personally but if he was in the shoes of an israeli.

The part that doesn't make sense is not the one you are focusing on but the fact that he is making an argument that justifies potential palestinian extremism. Think about it this way, jewish extremists are part of the elected majority, they kill and injure more people on a yearly basis than palestinians do but for some reason there is little public pushback against them in israel and the ones that do are easily labeled as enemies of Israel, these people routinely express their extremist views on mainstream platforms with next to no repercussion. By the logic he applied palestinians should consider that every israeli wants palestinians and palestinian territories destroyed unless they can demonstrate that they don't.

 

[nickm]

Certain things being what exactly? You keep claiming to be thinking things through but you've seemingly yet to put any thoughts forward other than saying you don't know or slurring others.

Self-defence is a given and no one has argued against that. Enjoy that strawman if it pleases you or makes you feel superior.

It's quite simple, define your own parameters for when it's reasonable to kill children? Because that's the starting point for judging a reasonable response here, it has to be because it's the biggest cost in this conflict.

If your answer is anything short of Israeli soldiers lives being worth more than a kid in Gaza then how can you not be outraged at the methods they're using?

So you tell me, since you are so sure about what is reasonable, if it is reasonable for Israel to defend itself (you say it is), and if in that defence children are killed, was the death of those children reasonable? Yes or no?

Does Israel have a legal and moral responsibility to try to minimise that? Yes of course they do. Does anyone really know what "minimise" actually means in an urban environment where the enemy has 200 miles of tunnels dug under civilian areas? Or where the enemy is deliberately firing rockets from schoolyards? How can you not feel outrage at the methods Hamas is using?

I don't like any of it but war is utterly terrible. At least I'm being honest about it and not just shoving it off onto the politicians so I can feel pure about myself, which you seem to think is an option.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

So you tell me, since you are so sure about what is reasonable, if it is reasonable for Israel to defend itself (you say it is), and if in that defence children are killed, was the death of those children reasonable? Yes or no?

Children aren't being killed as a byproduct of "defending Israel." The Israeli government and the IDF want these children dead, and they are killing them. That is why people are opposed to the Israeli government and the IDF.

 

[Halftrack]

So you tell me, since you are so sure about what is reasonable, if it is reasonable for Israel to defend itself (you say it is), and if in that defence children are killed, was the death of those children reasonable? Yes or no?

You ask as if it's either "Israel does not defend itself" or "Israel defends itself but kills thousands of children". There a lot of fecking room in between those two.

Does Israel have a legal and moral responsibility to try to minimise that? Yes of course they do. Does anyone really know what "minimise" actually means in an urban environment where the enemy has 200 miles of tunnels dug under civilian areas? Or where the enemy is deliberately firing rockets from schoolyards? How can you not feel outrage at the methods Hamas is using?

Yes. It means not dropping bombs on refugee camps. It means not cutting power and water. It means not taking out water reserves. It means not preventing critical humanitarian aid from getting in. It means not using WP in densly populated areas. There's a metric feckton of proof that Israel is collectively punishing the Gazan population, and takes very little care with regards to sparing them, yet all you can offer is mealy mouthed bullshit about Israel needing to defend itself and you not being able to tell whether or not they're doing something bad.

I don't like any of it but war is utterly terrible. At least I'm being honest about it and not just shoving it off onto the politicians so I can feel pure about myself, which you seem to think is an option.

You being honest? Good one You can't even bring yourself to say that cutting water and power and bombing bakeries, water reserves and fishing boats might not be about self-defense.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I don't like any of it but war is utterly terrible. At least I'm being honest about it and not just shoving it off onto the politicians so I can feel pure about myself, which you seem to think is an option.

Dozens of Palestinian journalists killed. Many of them killed in airstrikes that targeted their homes.

This is a year after the IDF murdered a Palestinian journalist, lied through their teeth for months about it, and then finally admitted it and said they wouldn't punish anyone.

You do not want to see what is right in front of you. So you hide it under a "fog of war."

 

[The Corinthian]

I believe that he was taking the position of an israeli jewish. It's not him personally but if he was in the shoes of an israeli.

The part that doesn't make sense is not the one you are focusing on but the fact that he is making an argument that justifies potential palestinian extremism. Think about it this way, jewish extremists are part of the elected majority, they kill and injure more people on a yearly basis than palestinians do but for some reason there is little public pushback against them in israel and the ones that do are easily labeled as enemies of Israel, these people routinely express their extremist views on mainstream platforms with next to no repercussion. By the logic he applied palestinians should consider that every israeli wants palestinians and palestinian territories destroyed unless they can demonstrate that they don't.

Ah got ya, and totally agree. Any claim you make about Hamas you can make the same about the Israeli government. They’re both sides of the same coin.

 

[berbatrick]

It was the most transparently obvious PR push, some captured terrorist (hopefully not some other random captured guy) reading a script, and the world's worst """""""'news"""""""" site doing a factually-challenged expose, in order to give State Dept bozos something to say when asked.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

It was the most transparently obvious PR push, some captured terrorist (hopefully not some other random captured guy) reading a script, and the world's worst """""""'news"""""""" site doing a factually-challenged expose, in order to give State Dept bozos something to say when asked.

It is kind of cool that the Israel govt. is pretty open about thinking westerners have the brain of a golden retriever.

 

[JPRouve]

It was the most transparently obvious PR push, some captured terrorist (hopefully not some other random captured guy) reading a script, and the world's worst """""""'news"""""""" site doing a factually-challenged expose, in order to give State Dept bozos something to say when asked.

Can you provide context to that tweet, when has israel suggested that the journalists killed were Hamas partisans?

 

[The Corinthian]

Can you provide context to that tweet, when has israel suggested that the journalists killed were Hamas partisans?

It’s something @calodo2003 posted last night from HonestReporting (another Israeli Memri regen) about these reporters being embedded in Hamas. I doubt the veracity or reliability of anything posted from such bias sources personally, and one that has a track record of embellishing claim. I’m yet to see another news site run the same story.

 

[2cents]

So you tell me, since you are so sure about what is reasonable, if it is reasonable for Israel to defend itself (you say it is), and if in that defence children are killed, was the death of those children reasonable? Yes or no?

Does Israel have a legal and moral responsibility to try to minimise that? Yes of course they do. Does anyone really know what "minimise" actually means in an urban environment where the enemy has 200 miles of tunnels dug under civilian areas? Or where the enemy is deliberately firing rockets from schoolyards? How can you not feel outrage at the methods Hamas is using?

I don't like any of it but war is utterly terrible. At least I'm being honest about it and not just shoving it off onto the politicians so I can feel pure about myself, which you seem to think is an option.

This is not a “reasonable” Israel we’re discussing right now. There is an element of this government - representing a small (but unfortunately growing) section of Israel’s population - for whom there are essentially no limits to the violence they’re willing to inflict on the Palestinians. October 7th didn’t change anything for them, they were the same on October 6th. They have the current criminal PM - who for all his many many faults has historically demonstrated some degree of restraint in conducting military operations - pandering to their wishes due to his own fundamental weakness. And it seems that the much broader section of the population for whom October 7th did change things remain in a state of raw and cruel vengefulness.

This is the worst, most incompetent, extreme, and instinctively violent government in Israel’s history, and possibly in the Middle East right now. Anyone who has read my posts on the region on here over the years will know I don’t say that lightly. Given this state of affairs, and the reality of a death toll currently on track to surpass that of Hafiz al-Assad’s Worst Massacre in Modern Middle Eastern History award, is it reasonable to grant Israel the benefit of the doubt here?

 

[berbatrick]

Can you provide context to that tweet, when has israel suggested that the journalists killed were Hamas partisans?

and some other tweets from "honestreporting" basically saying cnn and AJ journalists are hamas

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I thought this thread was interesting given the "Honest Reporting" thing someone posted earlier.

Seems to me pretty clear that the Israeli government wants to kill even more journalists.

 

[JPRouve]

It’s something @calodo2003 posted last night from HonestReporting (another Israeli Memri regen) about these reporters being embedded in Hamas. I doubt the veracity or reliability of anything posted from such bias sources personally, and one that has a track record of embellishing claim. I’m yet to see another news site run the same story.

That's why I asked. I have seen some wild claims from dubious anti-Israeli and pro-Palestinians(that reads more like pro-Hamas) but nothing else.

 

[JPRouve]

and some other tweets from "honestreporting" basically saying cnn and AJ journalists are hamas

Thanks, I didn't see that.

 

[JPRouve]

This is not a “reasonable” Israel we’re discussing right now. There is an element of this government - representing a small (but unfortunately growing) section of Israel’s population - for whom there are essentially no limits to the violence they’re willing to inflict on the Palestinians. October 7th didn’t change anything for them, they were the same on October 6th. They have the current criminal PM - who for all his many many faults has historically demonstrated some degree of restraint in conducting military operations - pandering to their wishes due to his own fundamental weakness. And it seems that the much broader section of the population for whom October 7th did change things remain in a state of raw and cruel vengefulness.

This is the worst, most incompetent, extreme, and instinctively violent government in Israel’s history, and possibly in the Middle East right now. Anyone who has read my posts on the region on here over the years will know I don’t say that lightly. Given this state of affairs, and the reality of a death toll currently on track to surpass that of Hafiz al-Assad’s Worst Massacre in Modern Middle Eastern History award, is it reasonable to grant Israel the benefit of the doubt here?

I shared this the other day but didn't quote it so hopefully, some read this conversation, it explains the general dynamic within Israel and how it affects palestinians and also peaceful settlers.

https://www.hartman.org.il/the-hilltop-youth-and-jewish-terrorism-transcript/

This quote represents the entirety of my point which some interpret as hate against Israel and it comes from an Israeli.

Yehuda: Right. I mean, and in this respect, it reminds me of other major episodes of both Palestinian terror against Israeli civilians and these cases as well, where extremist forces use this kind of terror to continue to polarize the Israeli and Palestinian people from one another. That so long as there is continued kind of violence and hate, that’s directed by Palestinians towards Israelis and Israelis and Palestinians that prevents any transformation of the political status quo.

The problem though, right? The problem is, and here, I’m genuinely curious for the coalition side of this. If you’re a right of center politician in Israel as Naftali Bennett is and you have explicitly indicated that you will not change the status quo. Right. What, you will not change the status quo. You, you will not preside over a Palestinian state on your watch.

That depends on a continued belief in the general public, inside Israel and outside Israel, that the Palestinians are incompatible as peace partners, that Israel’s hands are clean in terms of how it governs the occupation and that it’s powerless to fix it. These incidents and episodes really damage the story of a right wing position, which sees itself as morally superior to the left-wing alternatives.

The thing I can’t fully wrap my head around is the people you indicated most settlers are scandalized by these actions, they feel that it embarrasses them. It puts them, it makes them look bad. I would think that that would be the case for anybody on the credible Israeli. Right. I don’t mean the extreme right.

But anyone on the credible Israeli right. Who wants to depict themselves as, we’re not an apartheid state, we are doing the best that we can under circumstances beyond our control. Why not use this as a kind of example of how we crack down on, on betrayals of the kind of benevolent occupation that we hope to sustain?

 

[The Corinthian]

I thought this thread was interesting given the "Honest Reporting" thing someone posted earlier.

Seems to me pretty clear that the Israeli government wants to kill even more journalists.

Thanks for posting that thread - it debunks some of the claims. The tweets I posted above are pretty clear.