Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Kaos said:
In your view is Israel conducting its operation with the view to minimalise civilian casualties and the scale of human suffering?
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My gut says maybe not, but I am trying not to rely on that. Ultimately I don't know how bloody an urban war should / should not be, especially one where the enemy infrastructure is buried under civilian facilities.
 
Smores said:
It feels a bit distasteful and offensive for some to try and obfuscate the ongoing deaths of children behind legal frameworks. It's bad enough when politicians do it in their diplomatic role, I can't think of any good reason for individuals to pull out the Blair act.
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Because if you accept Israel has the right to defend itself, then certain things follow. It's not putting on a Blair act to try to think this stuff through for yourself. What is really offensive and obfuscatory is the use of words like genocide, which is designed to end discussion.

I suspect a lot of the people commenting on this, don't at heart really believe Israel has a right to defend itself - maybe because they think the state of Israel itself lacks legitimacy, or because they brought it on themselves, or whatever. If so, just come out and say it.

And I think some do think Israel has that right, but don't really know what the right level of response is. That is more the camp I am in.

And then you have people who don't want to think about it and are just reacting instinctively to the latest images. Fine, I guess.
 
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UK accused of 'whitewash' after Chevening scholar feared killed in Gaza


A Palestinian doctor who graduated from a prestigious UK Foreign Office scholarship scheme is feared to have been killed along with most of his family in an Israeli air strike in Gaza, colleagues say.
Dr Maisara Al Rayyes, 30, was photographed with Foreign Secretary James Cleverly after meeting him alongside other graduates of the programme two months ago.
He was trapped under the rubble of a six-storey apartment building which was razed to the ground in Gaza City on Sunday night.
The UK's handling of the case has triggered anger among some Foreign Office staff, the BBC understands, amid wider complaints over a failure to explicitly highlight the spiralling civilian death toll in Gaza.
It has also sparked a fierce backlash from some of the medic's former colleagues and scholarship members.
Dr Al Rayyes was a graduate of the Chevening Scholarship scheme, an elite programme run by the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (FCDO).

UK accused of 'whitewash' after Chevening scholar feared killed in Gaza - BBC News
 
Self defence:

Listen carefully to the commander of the 1st BHD cadet company on the Gaza coast: "We returned to the cisterns, we were expelled from here almost 20 years ago. We started this battle divided and ended it united and standing tall, we will not walk bent over anymore - we are fighting for the Land of Israel and the people of Israel, this is our land! And that is the victory, to return to our lands.'



Apparently this is not heard in this particular video but it’s what the journalist (from Tv-14, close to Likud I believe) is reporting was said…
 
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nickm said:
Because if you accept Israel has the right to defend itself, then certain things follow. It's not putting on a Blair act to try to think this stuff through for yourself. What is really offensive and obfuscatory is the use of words like genocide, which is designed to end discussion.

I suspect a lot of the people commenting on this, don't at heart really believe Israel has a right to defend itself - maybe because they think the state of Israel itself lacks legitimacy, or because they brought it on themselves, or whatever. If so, just come out and say it.

And I think some do think Israel has that right, but don't really know what the right level of response is. That is more the camp I am in.

And then you have people who don't want to think about it and are just reacting instinctively to the latest images. Fine, I guess.
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Certain things being what exactly? You keep claiming to be thinking things through but you've seemingly yet to put any thoughts forward other than saying you don't know or slurring others.

Self-defence is a given and no one has argued against that. Enjoy that strawman if it pleases you or makes you feel superior.

It's quite simple, define your own parameters for when it's reasonable to kill children? Because that's the starting point for judging a reasonable response here, it has to be because it's the biggest cost in this conflict.

If your answer is anything short of Israeli soldiers lives being worth more than a kid in Gaza then how can you not be outraged at the methods they're using?
 
In the meantime, more conflicts break out in Africa, the Darfur region of Sudan. Ukraine has almost been forgotten by the media, maybe as there's no religeous element to it. At least we've had a week without some nutter gunning down innocent citizens in the USA. All conflicts are bad and taking sides doesn't help. I watched a BBC correspondent rinsed by an International Law attorney when she insisted that Israel were breaking International Law on wars. They weren't although I find it hard to imagine some tank commander checking his book of International Law before he shells a building. Only from what I've seen on TV and read a little, Hamas is Palestine. They control everything, they levy a tax on any aid that arrives including monetary aid. The brave souls are hiding behind the civilians and that is why so many innocents are being killed. This is the end game for Israel after years of guerrilla attacks. Thomas Sowell wrote 'There are no solutions, only trade offs' and he is correct.
 
Offsideagain said:
In the meantime, more conflicts break out in Africa, the Darfur region of Sudan. Ukraine has almost been forgotten by the media, maybe as there's no religeous element to it. At least we've had a week without some nutter gunning down innocent citizens in the USA. All conflicts are bad and taking sides doesn't help. I watched a BBC correspondent rinsed by an International Law attorney when she insisted that Israel were breaking International Law on wars. They weren't although I find it hard to imagine some tank commander checking his book of International Law before he shells a building. Only from what I've seen on TV and read a little, Hamas is Palestine. They control everything, they levy a tax on any aid that arrives including monetary aid. The brave souls are hiding behind the civilians and that is why so many innocents are being killed. This is the end game for Israel after years of guerrilla attacks. Thomas Sowell wrote 'There are no solutions, only trade offs' and he is correct.
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With all due to respect, this tells me your knowledge of this conflict is extremely lacking if this is the conclusion you've come to.
 
Smores said:
Certain things being what exactly? You keep claiming to be thinking things through but you've seemingly yet to put any thoughts forward other than saying you don't know or slurring others.

Self-defence is a given and no one has argued against that. Enjoy that strawman if it pleases you or makes you feel superior.

It's quite simple, define your own parameters for when it's reasonable to kill children? Because that's the starting point for judging a reasonable response here, it has to be because it's the biggest cost in this conflict.

If your answer is anything short of Israeli soldiers lives being worth more than a kid in Gaza then how can you not be outraged at the methods they're using?
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The way you present it Israel has no choice but to accept defeat as it cannot engage in attacking and eliminating an enemy that's hiding behind children. An enemy that will wait for the next opportunity to strike, then run back and again hide behind children. Clearly this isn't sustainable.
 
Mihajlovic said:
The way you present it Israel has no choice but to accept defeat as it cannot engage in attacking and eliminating an enemy that's hiding behind children. An enemy that will wait for the next opportunity to strike, then run back and again hide behind children. Clearly this isn't sustainable.
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I'm not sure killing all those children to get to the bad guys makes you the good guy though.
 
Kaos said:
With all due to respect, this tells me your knowledge of this conflict is extremely lacking if this is the conclusion you've come to.
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One way to demonstrate the falseness of that statement is a Palestinian uprising against Hamas. 2 million Gazans subduing 25000 Hamas fighters sounds doable. 2 million Gazans starting a revolution, cementing every single tunnel entrance, masses and masses of people overpowering Hamas military and security, releasing all hostages, capturing and prosecuting all Hamas killers...
 
Mihajlovic said:
One way to demonstrate the falseness of that statement is a Palestinian uprising against Hamas. 2 million Gazans subduing 25000 Hamas fighters sounds doable. 2 million Gazans starting a revolution, cementing every single tunnel entrance, masses and masses of people overpowering Hamas military and security, releasing all hostages, capturing and prosecuting all Hamas killers...
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This is a truly absurd fantasy.
 
Mihajlovic said:
One way to demonstrate the falseness of that statement is a Palestinian uprising against Hamas. 2 million Gazans subduing 25000 Hamas fighters sounds doable. 2 million Gazans starting a revolution, cementing every single tunnel entrance, masses and masses of people overpowering Hamas military and security, releasing all hostages, capturing and prosecuting all Hamas killers...
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The state of this.

Just stop posting. Please.
 
Mihajlovic said:
One way to demonstrate the falseness of that statement is a Palestinian uprising against Hamas. 2 million Gazans subduing 25000 Hamas fighters sounds doable. 2 million Gazans starting a revolution, cementing every single tunnel entrance, masses and masses of people overpowering Hamas military and security, releasing all hostages, capturing and prosecuting all Hamas killers...
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Except it is an objectively false statement. Hamas only have jurisdiction in the Gaza strip, not the state of Palestine which he claims.
 
nimic said:
This is a truly absurd fantasy.
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Of course it is. You cannot take a single word I wrote seriously because we all know something like that would never, ever happen. Not even in the most outrageous Gazan fantasy.
 
Mihajlovic said:
One way to demonstrate the falseness of that statement is a Palestinian uprising against Hamas. 2 million Gazans subduing 25000 Hamas fighters sounds doable. 2 million Gazans starting a revolution, cementing every single tunnel entrance, masses and masses of people overpowering Hamas military and security, releasing all hostages, capturing and prosecuting all Hamas killers...
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Right-wing trolls like yourself is so predictable now. First post consists of pretending to wanting to be educated on the subject, hiding the true agenda behind seemingly innocent questions from "both sides". Then that is followed up with only questions aimed at one side before the real agenda gets exposed after a couple of more posts.

Even this post I'm quoting is so easily debunked yet I bet you don't really care for the answers anyway.
 
BarstoolProphet said:
Right-wing trolls like yourself is so predictable now. First post consists of pretending to wanting to be educated on the subject, hiding the true agenda behind seemingly innocent questions from "both sides". Then that is followed up with only questions aimed at one side before the real agenda gets exposed after a couple of more posts.

Even this post I'm quoting is so easily debunked yet I bet you don't really care for the answers anyway.
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I'm a communist, actually. And my post wasn't to be taken seriously as I've already explained. There's nothing to debunk or not to debunk in it.
 
Mihajlovic said:
Of course it is. You cannot take a single word I wrote seriously because we all know something like that would never, ever happen. Not even in the most outrageous Gazan fantasy.
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It's a stupid scenario with no connection to reality, regardless of who it involves. It's on the same level as people hearing about terrorist attacks and going "well why didn't they all just gang up on the terrorists and take them out?" It's nonsense.
 
nimic said:
It's a stupid scenario with no connection to reality, regardless of who it involves. It's on the same level as people hearing about terrorist attacks and going "well why didn't they all just gang up on the terrorists and take them out?" It's nonsense.
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Sure. Because history teaches us there have never been uprisings and revolutions and no government has ever been overthrown by its own people.
 
nickm said:
Because if you accept Israel has the right to defend itself, then certain things follow. It's not putting on a Blair act to try to think this stuff through for yourself. What is really offensive and obfuscatory is the use of words like genocide, which is designed to end discussion.

I suspect a lot of the people commenting on this, don't at heart really believe Israel has a right to defend itself.
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I think many people here realize that the incredibly repetitive refrain of "Israel has the right to defend itself" is exactly what is meant to end discussion. It's a slogan, not an argument.
 
Offsideagain said:
In the meantime, more conflicts break out in Africa, the Darfur region of Sudan. Ukraine has almost been forgotten by the media, maybe as there's no religeous element to it. At least we've had a week without some nutter gunning down innocent citizens in the USA. All conflicts are bad and taking sides doesn't help. I watched a BBC correspondent rinsed by an International Law attorney when she insisted that Israel were breaking International Law on wars. They weren't although I find it hard to imagine some tank commander checking his book of International Law before he shells a building. Only from what I've seen on TV and read a little, Hamas is Palestine. They control everything, they levy a tax on any aid that arrives including monetary aid. The brave souls are hiding behind the civilians and that is why so many innocents are being killed. This is the end game for Israel after years of guerrilla attacks. Thomas Sowell wrote 'There are no solutions, only trade offs' and he is correct.
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That's where we have to be careful, they may well be hiding behind civilians. I'm not claiming to know what's happening on the ground over in Gaza. But that's a line often trotted out to justify the killing of civilians by military powers whether it's true or not. It was an excuse used quite a lot in Northern Ireland by the British Army to justify killing civilians and children. Specifically in instances where it's since been determined it wasn't the case at all and those killings were 'unlawful'.
 
nimic said:
For a communist you're not very informed about the conditions and events that lead to uprisings and revolutions.
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I believe in the Gazans. I believe they all deeply resent Hamas and do not want to be held hostages any longer. The revolution is only a question of time. All they need is a leader that will mobilize and organize the people around a shared purpose. Hamas' days are numbered.
 
Mihajlovic said:
I believe in the Gazans. I believe they all deeply resent Hamas and do not want to be held hostages any longer. The revolution is only a question of time. All they need is a leader that will mobilize and organize the people around a shared purpose. Hamas' days are numbered.
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I'm genuinely interested to know what someone would get out of trolling on such a serious thread in such a serious time but you do you I guess.
 
stevoc said:
That's where we have to be careful, they may well be hiding behind civilians. I'm not claiming to know what's happening on the ground over in Gaza. But that's a line often trotted out to justify the killing of civilians by military powers whether it's true or not. It was an excuse used quite a lot in Northern Ireland by the British Army to justify killing civilians and children. Specifically in instances where it's since been determined it wasn't the case at all and those killings were 'unlawful'.
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The term "hiding behind civilians" is simply an umbrella term that lays out what is obvious and logical - that Hamas, as a paramilitary, insurgent organization, use their surrounding environment to their advantage by blending in with the public, because they knew previous Israeli ROE prevented them from going after them there. This includes things like what Hamas operatives are themselves describing below at 3:00.



For example, they use civilian ambulances to avoid detection by the IDF. From a Hamas perspective, this would be a logical countermeasure to avoid danger, but to most on the outside, it easily qualifies as using civilian infrastructure to their advantage, because that is by definition, what insurgent groups do. Ambulances can therefore be used to transport the likes of weapons, explosives and so on. At 5:30, the next guy talks about the deliberate storage of weapons and rockets below a school for the very same reasons. The next guy talks about tunnels connecting through hospitals, medical clinics, schools etc.

But its not just the low level guys who get caught that admit it. Senior Hamas members like Mousa Abu Marzouk have also conceded they use tunnels for military purposes. This should surprise no one, because insurgencies, by definition, tend to use all available nearby infrastructure to protect themselves after they launch their attacks and need to protect themselves. What is quite telling about the testimony of the ground level Hamas guys is that they all clearly believe the use of hospitals, ambulances, schools, mosques etc., are great hiding places for weapons, ammo, and rockets, because they genuinely believe the Israelis don't attack those locations.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
I think many people here realize that the incredibly repetitive refrain of "Israel has the right to defend itself" is exactly what is meant to end discussion. It's a slogan, not an argument.
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It's such an idiotic one too. First and foremost, they did a shitty job of defending themselves on October 7, given the superiority in every sector except moral
 
africanspur said:
I'm genuinely interested to know what someone would get out of trolling on such a serious thread in such a serious time but you do you I guess.
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I asked a few days ago about a specific breakdown of the Gazan population, religious extremists suporting Hamas and IJ, non-religous but nationalist supporters vs non-supporters, secular/ Western oriented sympathizers, etc. It's often said Gazans are held hostage by Hamas. What exactly does that mean considering a mass of civilians participated in the 07.10 massacre. Does a Hamas fighter become a regular Gazan civilian when he takes off his uniform? How many regular, ordinary Gazans support Hamas and their ideology? How many civilians were dancing in the streets on 07.10 because they genuinely rejoiced in the murder of Jews vs those who were disgusted by the massacre yet danced anyway out of fear? Does Hamas value the lives of Gazan children? Do regular non-Hamas adult parents value the lives of their children when they teach them to hate and kill the Jews? How many regular folks would participate in committing attrocities given the opportunity? Explain why Hamas is building rockets right next to a school, and how does this fly with the parents, teacher, neighbours? Do they all support Hamas' cause, or are they dead-scared to protest? Are there hundred thousand Gazans that genuinely despise Hamas, or are there only 10,000? Are there a million Gazans who see Hamas as the main obstacle to peace and prosperity? Is a Gazan mother who curses the Jews and hands out candy whenever a Jew is murdered 'innocent'? And what exactly does that mean? Explain to me the complexities of the Gazan population, their ideology, their theology and eschatology, and how it all connects with their goals and aspirations.
 
Raoul said:
What is quite telling about the testimony of the ground level Hamas guys is that they all clearly believe the use of hospitals, ambulances, schools, mosques etc., are great hiding places for weapons, ammo, and rockets, because they genuinely believe the Israelis don't attack those locations.
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That does not sound very credible.
 
Mihajlovic said:
I asked a few days ago about a specific breakdown of the Gazan population, religious extremists suporting Hamas and IJ, non-religous but nationalist supporters vs non-supporters, secular/ Western oriented sympathizers, etc. It's often said Gazans are held hostage by Hamas. What exactly does that mean considering a mass of civilians participated in the 07.10 massacre. Does a Hamas fighter become a regular Gazan civilian when he takes off his uniform? How many regular, ordinary Gazans support Hamas and their ideology? How many civilians were dancing in the streets on 07.10 because they genuinely rejoiced in the murder of Jews vs those who were disgusted by the massacre yet danced anyway out of fear? Does Hamas value the lives of Gazan children? Do regular non-Hamas adult parents value the lives of their children when they teach them to hate and kill the Jews? How many regular folks would participate in committing attrocities given the opportunity? Explain why Hamas is building rockets right next to a school, and how does this fly with the parents, teacher, neighbours? Do they all support Hamas' cause, or are they dead-scared to protest? Are there hundred thousand Gazans that genuinely despise Hamas, or are there only 10,000? Are there a million Gazans who see Hamas as the main obstacle to peace and prosperity? Is a Gazan mother who curses the Jews and hands out candy whenever a Jew is murdered 'innocent'? And what exactly does that mean? Explain to me the complexities of the Gazan population, their ideology, their theology and eschatology, and how it all connects with their goals and aspirations.
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Recent polling suggests the last confrontation resulted in Hamas coming out with significant public support. So its not entirely surprising that this may have emboldened them to ultimately arrange what has transpired last month.

https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87
 
Raoul said:
The term "hiding behind civilians" is simply an umbrella term that lays out what is obvious and logical - that Hamas, as a paramilitary, insurgent organization, use their surrounding environment to their advantage by blending in with the public, because they knew previous Israeli ROE prevented them from going after them there. This includes things like what Hamas operatives are themselves describing below at 3:00.



For example, they use civilian ambulances to avoid detection by the IDF. From a Hamas perspective, this would be a logical countermeasure to avoid danger, but to most on the outside, it easily qualifies as using civilian infrastructure to their advantage, because that is by definition, what insurgent groups do. Ambulances can therefore be used to transport the likes of weapons, explosives and so on. At 5:30, the next guy talks about the deliberate storage of weapons and rockets below a school for the very same reasons. The next guy talks about tunnels connecting through hospitals, medical clinics, schools etc.

But its not just the low level guys who get caught that admit it. Senior Hamas members like Mousa Abu Marzouk have also conceded they use tunnels for military purposes. This should surprise no one, because insurgencies, by definition, tend to use all available nearby infrastructure to protect themselves after they launch their attacks and need to protect themselves. What is quite telling about the testimony of the ground level Hamas guys is that they all clearly believe the use of hospitals, ambulances, schools, mosques etc., are great hiding places for weapons, ammo, and rockets, because they genuinely believe the Israelis don't attack those locations.
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We know Israel tortures Palestinian detainees. Videos of detained Hamas fighters confirming all claims used by Israel to justify bombing civilians are worth about as much as a pot of my piss.
 
 
Mihajlovic said:
I asked a few days ago about a specific breakdown of the Gazan population, religious extremists suporting Hamas and IJ, non-religous but nationalist supporters vs non-supporters, secular/ Western oriented sympathizers, etc. It's often said Gazans are held hostage by Hamas. What exactly does that mean considering a mass of civilians participated in the 07.10 massacre. Does a Hamas fighter become a regular Gazan civilian when he takes off his uniform? How many regular, ordinary Gazans support Hamas and their ideology? How many civilians were dancing in the streets on 07.10 because they genuinely rejoiced in the murder of Jews vs those who were disgusted by the massacre yet danced anyway out of fear? Does Hamas value the lives of Gazan children? Do regular non-Hamas adult parents value the lives of their children when they teach them to hate and kill the Jews? How many regular folks would participate in committing attrocities given the opportunity? Explain why Hamas is building rockets right next to a school, and how does this fly with the parents, teacher, neighbours? Do they all support Hamas' cause, or are they dead-scared to protest? Are there hundred thousand Gazans that genuinely despise Hamas, or are there only 10,000? Are there a million Gazans who see Hamas as the main obstacle to peace and prosperity? Is a Gazan mother who curses the Jews and hands out candy whenever a Jew is murdered 'innocent'? And what exactly does that mean? Explain to me the complexities of the Gazan population, their ideology, their theology and eschatology, and how it all connects with their goals and aspirations.
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I don't know how you'd expect anyone to produce a meticulous demographical breakdown such as that. But it sounds like you're dangerously close to dehumanising the people of Gaza to the extent of holding them collectively accountable for the sheer human catastrophe they're currently being subjected to.

But to humour this line of thinking - let's say that a plurality in Gaza did support the terror attacks, does it for you justify the losses and suffering they're currently having to endure - including the many thousand women and children?

And conversely, would you deem it appropriate if you applied that same logic to the people of Israel? If for instance the town of Sderot consisted of nothing but those who actively call for the genocide of the Palestinian people, cheerleading the death of women and children - if the town were subjected to a relentless Hamas terror campaign leading to thousands dead, would you consider them unworthy of human concern?
 
Kaos said:
I don't how you'd expect anyone to produce a meticulous demographical breakdown such as that. But it sounds like you're dangerously close to dehumanising the people of Gaza to the extent of holding them collectively accountable for the sheer human catastrophe they're currently being subjected to.

But to humour this line of thinking - let's say that a plurality in Gaza did support the terror attacks, does it for you justify the losses and suffering they're currently having to endure - including the many thousand women and children?

And conversely, would you seem it appropriate if you applied that same logic to the people of Israel? If for instance the town of Sderot consisted of nothing but those who actively call for the genocide of the Palestinian people, cheerleading the death of women and children - if the town were subjected to a relentless Hamas terror campaign leading to thousands dead, would you consider them unworthy of human concern?
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The support for Hamas is probably (and misguidedly) to express frustration at their own quality of life on the strip. This is born out in polling comparing attitudes of the same issues between Gazans and WB'ers (the former consistently having a bleaker perspective than the latter). Quality of life issues, combined with frustrations about Israeli settler activity and Aqsa related issues seem to have driven more Gazans to be more sympathetic to Hamas. That shouldn't of course paint the entire population as supportive of the 10-7 attacks.
 
Raoul said:
The support for Hamas is probably (and misguidedly) to express frustration at their own quality of life on the strip. This is born out in polling comparing attitudes of the same issues between Gazans and WB'ers. Quality of life issues, combined with frustrations about Israeli settler activity and Aqsa related issues seem to have driven more Gazans to be more sympathetic to Hamas. That shouldn't of course paint the entire population as supportive of the 10-7 attacks.
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And that remains a key issue for Israel and its allies. Even if they were to succeed in destroying Hamas, not only would they have failed to extinguish the underlying reasons why some Gazans would have flocked to their ranks, but they would have also emboldened the very doctrine they stood for. You now have 2.5 million people living in absolute ruin, thousands of which have had their families, livelihoods and mental psyche utterly destroyed by the occupying force, the same force the likes of Hamas use as a rally pointing to garner support.
 
Kaos said:
And that remains a key issue for Israel and its allies. Even if they were to succeed in destroying Hamas, not only would they have failed to extinguish the underlying reasons why some Gazans would have flocked to their ranks, but they would have also emboldened the very doctrine they stood for. You now have 2.5 million people living in absolute ruin, thousands of which have had their families, livelihoods and mental psyche utterly destroyed by the occupying force, the same force the likes of Hamas use as a rally pointing to garner support.
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Yes, whatever the outcome here, they will need to figure out how to rebuild. The hope is that both Hamas and Bibi won't be involved in that process, and it will to some degree be driven by a UN peacekeeping force for a limited period of time.
 
Idxomer said:


They learned from the best.
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I believe that human shields had been used throughout history and been ignored by many. I think the term that US used the most was "collateral damage"
 
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