Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Conor said:
It's an amazing talent you have, that you can determine what 'half' of the 100,000+ people want, without talking to any of them.
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gfactor86 said:
the same people that marched in London today.

let's not pretend that half these people really care about Palestinian lives. They aren't interested in a 2 state solution. All they want is intifada and for the Jews to leave Arab land.

the day after the attacks on Israel and the most brutal day for Jews since the holocaust. They were out marching and rallying for Palestine. This was before Israel had fired a shot back at Gaza
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What absolute nonsense. I was there yesterday - with a couple of colleagues from work (not that it should matter but British born non Muslims mind you). The chants were : we want a cease fire, stop the genocide, starmer shame on you, sunak shame on you, free free Palestine, end the blockade now etc. The speakers which included prominent human rights activists, a couple of politicians, Jewish voices for peace, some UK based Palestinians, and a handful of organizations whose name I didn’t catch.
All the speakers spoke to the right to dignity and life, the various war crimes being committed by Israel right now, they denounced the actions of Hamas and also called out people like you who equivocate Palestine with Hamas. You are gleefully rubbing your hands at babies being bombed. Introspect and think of what went wrong with you
 
gfactor86 said:
I don't delight in Palestinian deaths. I don't condone IDF actions in Gaza either.

my point is that you will not see placards at these rallies advocating for a 2 state solution. All I see are calls for intifada/jihad. Nothing condemning Hamas. It is for a 1 state solution just for Palestinians.

It's about the eradication of the Jews. "From river to the sea" is advocating the cleansing of Jews

300k people marched in London yesterday. How many marched for the Uigher Muslims? 1million sat in concentration camps in China. They didn't march. No one cares. Because it's not the Jews.

they can't stand the fact that the Jews should have a Jewish homeland in the Arab world. A country smaller than Wales.

this is what it comes down to. And yes, it is about race.
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It was about 100k according to the Guardian.
So basically you think anyone concerned about the escalating humanitarian crisis in Palestine is an antisemite because they aren't marching for the Uighers too? You've been reading the Telegraph comment section too much.
 
JPRouve said:
Which is extremely grim. Outside of politics and political interests there is no reason to support the idea that palestinians and israelis can't live peacefully and religiously in a single state as a single nation where the entire nation thrives. The only stumbling blocks are extremists and opportunists from both sides, that are all enabled by wealthier and more powerful nations.

The fact that these extremists are immovable is one of the most baffling facts.
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Human history would say otherwise.
 
B. Munich said:
Where are the burning houses, where are the gunshots in the video? All I see date some people walking on the street in the night.
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Straight from the Guardian, which we certainly can see a more reputable source than Twitter. While not as vile and horrific as what the Hamas did on 7/10, what the settlers do in the West Bank can absolutely be defined as terrorism. It is also encouraged by a state claming to share the western values and supported by an army supposed to be the most moral in the world.

"As the world watches Gaza, the violence against Palestinians in the occupied West Bank has skyrocketed. Days before the 7 October attack, armed Israeli settlers, reportedly from the settlement of Esh Kodesh, stormed the Palestinian village of Qusra, which stands south-west of the city of Nablus. Settlers fired at residents who had gathered, unarmed, to protect their village. That night, under the cover of darkness, settlers returned to destroy cars and electricity lines.

In the following days, settlers cut off the road leading to the village, only to return on 11 October with Israeli occupation forces in tow. Israeli settlers opened fire at residents and rather than hold them back, as Israeli forces claim to do, they joined in. Four Palestinians were killed that day, with settlers killing three and soldiers killing one.

The next day, settlers returned and attacked the funeral for the four killed the day before, opening fire once again, killing a father and his son.

These are not isolated incidents. Since 7 October, settler attacks have risen to an average of eight incidents a day and have led to the displacement of 13 Palestinian communities. The Israeli government’s intention to arm its settlers with an additional 10,000 rifles will undoubtedly make the situation much worse."

"However, what we are experiencing now is a rapid escalation of this violence. Between 1 January and 19 September 2023, Israeli settlers and forces killed 189 Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and injured 8,192. Since 7 October alone, Israeli soldiers and settlers killed 64 Palestinians, injured 1,300, and carried out 77 attacks on healthcare facilities."

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...s-west-bank-violence-attacks-israeli-settlers

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ettlers-push-bedouins-off-west-bank-territory


As a bonus, I'll give you the report of the UNOCHA which is a UN humanitarian organization, dated form September 2023, a month before the attacks.

https://www.unocha.org/publications...id-increasing-settler-violence-september-2023
 
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Shez said:
What absolute nonsense. I was there yesterday - with a couple of colleagues from work (not that it should matter but British born non Muslims mind you). The chants were : we want a cease fire, stop the genocide, starmer shame on you, sunak shame on you, free free Palestine, end the blockade now etc. The speakers which included prominent human rights activists, a couple of politicians, Jewish voices for peace, some UK based Palestinians, and a handful of organizations whose name I didn’t catch.
All the speakers spoke to the right to dignity and life, the various war crimes being committed by Israel right now, they denounced the actions of Hamas and also called out people like you who equivocate Palestine with Hamas. You are gleefully rubbing your hands at babies being bombed. Introspect and think of what went wrong with you
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again this is where you are wrong. I don't delight over babies dying or any civilian caught up in this mess. On either side. So you are talking complete nonsense.

there were ISIS flags at the demo yesterday. LGBT flags ripped down as well by radicals. There were calls for Jihad too against Jews.

bookmark this message. As soon as Hamas or Hezbollah strike Israel again and when you see a huge loss of Israeli life, you'll see the celebrations on the streets from the same people you marched with. You will see their true colours. If Hamas was ruthlessly bombing Israel, there would be no March in solidarity with Israelis or calls to "end the genocide" or desire for ceasefire.

you chant for a Free Palestine but what does that even look like? Open the border to Gaza and let Hamas in to butcher and rape Israelis? Because that's what would happen.
 
That_Bloke said:
Straight from the Guardian, which we certainly can see a more reputable source than Twitter. While not as vile and horrific as what the Hamas did on 7/10, what the settlers do in the West Bank can absolutely be defined as terrorism. It is also encouraged by a state claming to share the western values and supported an army supposed to be the most moral in the world.

"As the world watches Gaza, the violence against Palestinians in the occupied West Bank has skyrocketed. Days before the 7 October attack, armed Israeli settlers, reportedly from the settlement of Esh Kodesh, stormed the Palestinian village of Qusra, which stands south-west of the city of Nablus. Settlers fired at residents who had gathered, unarmed, to protect their village. That night, under the cover of darkness, settlers returned to destroy cars and electricity lines.

In the following days, settlers cut off the road leading to the village, only to return on 11 October with Israeli occupation forces in tow. Israeli settlers opened fire at residents and rather than hold them back, as Israeli forces claim to do, they joined in. Four Palestinians were killed that day, with settlers killing three and soldiers killing one.

The next day, settlers returned and attacked the funeral for the four killed the day before, opening fire once again, killing a father and his son.

These are not isolated incidents. Since 7 October, settler attacks have risen to an average of eight incidents a day and have led to the displacement of 13 Palestinian communities. The Israeli government’s intention to arm its settlers with an additional 10,000 rifles will undoubtedly make the situation much worse."

"However, what we are experiencing now is a rapid escalation of this violence. Between 1 January and 19 September 2023, Israeli settlers and forces killed 189 Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and injured 8,192. Since 7 October alone, Israeli soldiers and settlers killed 64 Palestinians, injured 1,300, and carried out 77 attacks on healthcare facilities."

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...s-west-bank-violence-attacks-israeli-settlers

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ettlers-push-bedouins-off-west-bank-territory


As a bonus, I'll give you the UNOCHA's which is a UN humanitarian organization dated form September 2023, a month before the attacks.

https://www.unocha.org/publications...id-increasing-settler-violence-september-2023
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From the Guardian...
 
dinostar77 said:
Because its the only solution long term that will bring peace and needs to be discussed.

There has to be some light or hope at the end of the tunnel.
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Yeah, but the light and hope won't be turned on two people discussing it on Redcafe, so it's a waste of time in my eyes, I'm afraid.
 
Kinsella said:
Which examples do you have in mind? (America aside)
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Just to be clear. You're asking for examples of nations that have multiple religions that have co-existed and still thrived?

I can list them if you want but it would be a long list!
 
JPRouve said:
Which is extremely grim. Outside of politics and political interests there is no reason to support the idea that palestinians and israelis can't live peacefully and religiously in a single state as a single nation where the entire nation thrives. The only stumbling blocks are extremists and opportunists from both sides, that are all enabled by wealthier and more powerful nations.

The fact that these extremists are immovable is one of the most baffling facts.
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That's the problem with extremists: They just want it more...
 
Halftrack said:
So you deny that Israeli settlers, with the support of the government and thr IDF, visit violence and terror on Palestinians in the West Bank and steal their homes and lands?
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not denying it. I don't condone it either, whatsoever. Unfortunately Israel put in place these laws that discriminate against Palestinians in the West Bank.Reoccupying land that they say was formerly Jewish owned. I don't agree with it at all.

My point is that the Guardian is about the most anti-Israeli periodical out there.
 
VorZakone said:
What do you mean here by genocide?
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I mean that the Israeli government has been systematically targeting Palestinians over time.

This isn't just about Hamas, although, of course, Hamas is a terror organization, and targeting them is more than understandable. But Hamas have no control over the West Bank, yet Israelis, armed by Ben-Gvir, are driving Palestinians out of their homes there. I believe they want to eradicate large portions of Palestinians through violence and denial of necessary resources, and that, to me, fills the criteria for genocide.

I also believe the way the Israelis are talking about the Palestinians, as if they are barely human, is a way of making it acceptable to both their own and the international community.
Backed by the US and the West, there is nothing that can or will stop the Israelis. I foresee a drawn-out war where the Palestinians are largely killed off and forced to flee.

Admittedly, I've been privy to some very personal feelings from an individual working in the IDF (claimed, internet relations, so I can't say for sure), and his way of expressing glee over the payback that is ongoing is making my stomach churn with how he combines it with dehumanizing talk about Palestinians in general. On another anecdotal note, I am also am in touch with an Israeli-American who has lost family and friends in the Hamas attacks, and while I would understand him voicing thoughts of bloody revenge towards all Palestinians, he refrains from doing so.
 
gfactor86 said:
not denying it. I don't condone it either, whatsoever. Unfortunately Israel put in place these laws that discriminate against Palestinians in the West Bank.Reoccupying land that they say was formerly Jewish owned. I don't agree with it at all.

My point is that the Guardian is about the most anti-Israeli periodical out there.
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Then debunk it, if you believe it to be false.

And your repeated claims that you abhor the violence visited upon Palestinians by the Israelis ring incredibly hollow when all your effort goes into calling virtually everyone supporting Palestine antisemites.

You keep bringing up the Uyghurs. What's happening to to them in China is a tragedy, and definitely a genocide. The difference is that we literally can't do anything about it, and our leaders can't do anything about it. With the Palestinians there's at least a slight (very slight, even) chance we can. Our governments support Israel in its quest to cleanse the land of Palestinians, and if we can push them to withhold that support, maybe it would give Israel pause.
 
Ødegaard said:
I mean that the Israeli government has been systematically targeting Palestinians over time.

This isn't just about Hamas, although, of course, Hamas is a terror organization, and targeting them is more than understandable. But Hamas have no control over the West Bank, yet Israelis, armed by Ben-Gvir, are driving Palestinians out of their homes there. I believe they want to eradicate large portions of Palestinians through violence and denial of necessary resources, and that, to me, fills the criteria for genocide.

I also believe the way the Israelis are talking about the Palestinians, as if they are barely human, is a way of making it acceptable to both their own and the international community.
Backed by the US and the West, there is nothing that can or will stop the Israelis. I foresee a drawn-out war where the Palestinians are largely killed off and forced to flee.

Admittedly, I've been privy to some very personal feelings from an individual working in the IDF (claimed, internet relations, so I can't say for sure), and his way of expressing glee over the payback that is ongoing is making my stomach churn with how he combines it with dehumanizing talk about Palestinians in general. On another anecdotal note, I am also am in touch with an Israeli-American who has lost family and friends in the Hamas attacks, and while I would understand him voicing thoughts of bloody revenge towards all Palestinians, he refrains from doing so.
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I don't think people should be throwing out the term genocide willy nilly.

Rwanda was a genocide. The Holocaust was a genocide. This isn't. The population of Gaza has doubled in 20 years.
 
Bert_ said:
Just to be clear. You're asking for examples of nations that have multiple religions that have co-existed and still thrived?

I can list them if you want but it would be a long list!
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No, I'll take you back to JPRouve's claim that..."Outside of politics and political interests there is no reason to support the idea that palestinians and israelis can't live peacefully and religiously in a single state as a single nation where the entire nation thrives." Now whilst I welcome the sentiment behind the claim you have to actually examine the statement. Essentially he's saying that there's no reason, outside of politics and political interests, why two ethno-national groups (i.e. two nations) can't live peacefully and thrive as one nation in a single state. So that's what I'm asking for examples of I suppose.

JPRouve said:
I don't get your point. How would human history support the idea that it's not possible beyond politics and political interests?
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As I mentioned above I welcome/applaud the sentiment behind what you're saying but...you're kind of describing an abstract state of being there, or in terms of an actual place; heaven or some earthly utopia.There will always be politics and political interests in human affairs because that's just a part of human existence. There will always be those who are motivated by power, greed and self-interest and there will always be those who will campaign or fight to correct inequalities (whether real or perceived). And often motivations of the former underpin the passions of the latter.
 
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gfactor86 said:
I don't think people should be throwing out the term genocide willy nilly.

Rwanda was a genocide. The Holocaust was a genocide. This isn't. The population of Gaza has doubled in 20 years.
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Your digging a deeper and deeper hole with your failure to condemn atrocities
 
Kinsella said:
As I mentioned above I welcome/applaud the sentiment behind what you're saying but...you're kind of describing an abstract state of being there. There will always be politics and political interests in human affairs because that's just a part of human existence. There will always be those who are motivated by power, greed and self-interest and there will always be those who will campaign or fight to correct inequalities (whether real or perceived). And often motivations of the former underpin the passions of the latter.
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I still don't understand how this relates to the point I made or to human history. There is no abstraction in what I said, I didn't suggest that politics or political interests should be removed, I stated that it's the only reason against the existence of a peaceful single state in Israel-Palestine.

You are imagining things that haven't been stated.
 
gfactor86 said:
I don't think people should be throwing out the term genocide willy nilly.

Rwanda was a genocide. The Holocaust was a genocide. This isn't. The population of Gaza has doubled in 20 years.
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You are missing the point here - would suggest you take a break.
 
gfactor86 said:
I don't think people should be throwing out the term genocide willy nilly.

Rwanda was a genocide. The Holocaust was a genocide. This isn't. The population of Gaza has doubled in 20 years.
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I believe Israel is trying to reach its goals through genocide, and I am far from alone in that.
 
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gfactor86 said:
I don't think people should be throwing out the term genocide willy nilly.

Rwanda was a genocide. The Holocaust was a genocide. This isn't. The population of Gaza has doubled in 20 years.
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And it might well half in the next few years if there is mass starvation, dehydration and displacement. Along with every other crisis that comes with those things.

Not saying it will, but the IDF rhetoric so far suggests it might.
 
gfactor86 said:
I don't think people should be throwing out the term genocide willy nilly.

Rwanda was a genocide. The Holocaust was a genocide. This isn't. The population of Gaza has doubled in 20 years.
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Indeed but that's extremist internet discourse for you. Pretty ironic too it has to be said given the chants of "Palestine will be free", one should look up the context of that particularly in Arabic, it dates back to the 1948 rejection and subsequent war - quite literally meaning free of the existence of Israel and the jews.
 
Canada doesn't think it was an Israeli airstrike.

Ottawa has a "high degree of confidence" that Israel did not strike the al-Ahli Hospital in Gaza City on Tuesday after an independent review by the Canadian military, Defence Minister Bill Blair said in a statement late Saturday evening.

Canada believes the more likely scenario is that the strike was caused by an "errant rocket" fired from the Gaza Strip, Blair's statement said.
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https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada-israel-gaza-hospital-1.7004384
 
Superden said:
Your digging a deeper and deeper hole with your failure to condemn atrocities
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gfactor86 said:
I don't think people should be throwing out the term genocide willy nilly.

Rwanda was a genocide. The Holocaust was a genocide. This isn't. The population of Gaza has doubled in 20 years.
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I think you will find that i have condemned it. The IDF have at times acted deplorably. I do not agree with collective punishment. Their actions have no doubt exacerbated the issues with the Palestinians in recent years.

Any loss of civilian life, on either side is a tragedy.I mourn for the plight of innocent Palestinians and the deaths of innocents. As I mourn the deaths of Israelis who have been killed in this episode.

I don't however lay the blame solely at the feet of Israel for what is going on. This is a complex conflict and both sides are at fault. No one more so than Hamas.
 
Newtonius said:
Indeed but that's extremist internet discourse for you. Pretty ironic too it has to be said given the chants of "Palestine will be free", one should look up the context of that particularly in Arabic, it dates back to the 1948 rejection and subsequent war - quite literally meaning free of the existence of Israel and the jews.
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Exactly. "From River to the Sea" is genocidal. That is what they mean when they sing it.
 
That_Bloke said:
Straight from the Guardian, which we certainly can see a more reputable source than Twitter. While not as vile and horrific as what the Hamas did on 7/10, what the settlers do in the West Bank can absolutely be defined as terrorism. It is also encouraged by a state claming to share the western values and supported by an army supposed to be the most moral in the world.
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I don't condone the actions of the ultra Orthodox Jewish settlers in West Bank at all. They are a problem Israel has to address quickly to have any chances for a peaceful solution. They are totally counterproductive and make any peace talks more difficult (if not impossible).
Online I found that 30 Israelis and 197 Palestinians have died until October 7th in the West Bank which is a powder keg ready to explode.

That's why everybody was surprised the attack came out of Gaza which actually has been pretty quiet.
October 7th attacks are one a complete different level though. The recording of the atrocities and publishing them in social media is a wicked plan to create more hate (on both sides) and torpedoe any peace initiatives.
Unfortunately, Hamas seems to have achieved their goals.
They derailed the ongoing peace process between Israel and other Arabic states.
They ignited new, strong hatred amongst Muslims towards Israel who is responding to the attacks.
Even moderate Arabic countries are under pressure and cancelled meetings with western politicians to discuss possible actions to prevent this conflict to get out of control.

Hamas doesn't want peace. Hamas wants chaos and war.
 
gfactor86 said:
I don't however lay the blame solely at the feet of Israel for what is going on. This is a complex conflict and both sides are at fault. No one more so than Hamas.
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Given that Israel helped establish Hamas to undermine Fatah, and their continued policy towards them, I'd say "No one more so than Israel" would be a more accurate statement.
 
B. Munich said:
I don't condone the actions of the ultra Orthodox Jewish settlers in West Bank at all. They are a problem Israel has to address quickly to have any chances for a peaceful solution. They are totally counterproductive and make any peace talks more difficult (if not impossible).
Online I found that 30 Israelis and 197 Palestinians have died until October 7th in the West Bank which is a powder keg ready to explode.

That's why everybody was surprised the attack came out of Gaza which actually has been pretty quiet.
October 7th attacks are one a complete different level though. The recording of the atrocities and publishing them in social media is a wicked plan to create more hate (on both sides) and torpedoe any peace initiatives.
Unfortunately, Hamas seems to have achieved their goals.
They derailed the ongoing peace process between Israel and other Arabic states.
They ignited new, strong hatred amongst Muslims towards Israel who is responding to the attacks.
Even moderate Arabic countries are under pressure and cancelled meetings with western politicians to discuss possible actions to prevent this conflict to get out of control.

Hamas doesn't want peace. Hamas wants chaos and war.
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As does Netanyahu and his compatriots.
 
JPRouve said:
I still don't understand how this relates to the point I made or to human history. There is no abstraction in what I said, I didn't suggest that politics or political interests should be removed, I stated that it's the only reason against the existence of a peaceful single state in Israel-Palestine.

You are imagining things that haven't been stated.
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It's a pointless thing to say then. You're essentially claiming that there's no reason, outside of politics and political interests, why two ethno-national groups (i.e. two nations) can't live peacefully and thrive as one nation in a single state.
 
gfactor86 said:
again this is where you are wrong. I don't delight over babies dying or any civilian caught up in this mess. On either side. So you are talking complete nonsense.

there were ISIS flags at the demo yesterday. LGBT flags ripped down as well by radicals. There were calls for Jihad too against Jews.

bookmark this message. As soon as Hamas or Hezbollah strike Israel again and when you see a huge loss of Israeli life, you'll see the celebrations on the streets from the same people you marched with. You will see their true colours. If Hamas was ruthlessly bombing Israel, there would be no March in solidarity with Israelis or calls to "end the genocide" or desire for ceasefire.

you chant for a Free Palestine but what does that even look like? Open the border to Gaza and let Hamas in to butcher and rape Israelis? Because that's what would happen.
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So many dog-whistles in one post. I didn’t see a single isis flag - unless you’re mistaking Arabic letters for Isis?

You do know rallies have police presence in the UK with strict instructions on stamping out these things.

Genuine question - do you even live in the UK? You clearly didn’t attend the rally so where are you getting your information from ?
 
Kinsella said:
It's a pointless thing to say then. You're essentially claiming that there's no reason, outside of politics and political interests, why two ethno-national groups (i.e. two nations) can't live peacefully and thrive as one nation in a single state.
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I simply observed that both sets of extremists are the cause of an issue and that they are both enabled by outsiders. Now I apologize if it somehow bothered you, next time I will ask for your permission to make observations and make sure that it serves a point for you.
 
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