I didn't quote any figures, nor denied the existance of any figures. I shared a source with someone that questioned a source.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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I didn't quote any figures, nor denied the existance of any figures. I shared a source with someone that questioned a source.
Scary how this type of argument was used to deny the Holocaust.
Oh 6 million Jews couldn't have died as world statistics show the population rose and didn't decline.
The Etymology of the phrase would suggest it isn't.
That's not to say likes of Hamas don't use it for that purpose but the phrase is not Hamas in origin
Edit: Likud has : “Between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty” in their founding charter
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It was only yesterday you were saying the gazans deserved it because they voted for hamas...so don't try and be all nuanced now. And you still can't bring yourself to even mention the Jewish version of hamas, the settlers...
If what I've read is true Hamas tried to hand over to the PA in 2014 due to various factors including financial issues.
Israel was against this and helped to siphon in money to Hamas from various sources.
Israel loves Hamas, they are a means to their objective. An objective they had from 1902 onwards, 1915 for Palestine. Complete control of the land including Gaza and the West Bank.
Historically Gaza and the West Bank were under control of Jordan and Egypt.
I personally believe that a two state solution should be found (how in reality that can be done I don't know). However, regarding the From River to the Sea (and this is a sensitive question), if the land in "recent history" prior to the creation of Israel as a state was Palestinian land, would the Palestinians who have lost that land not necessarily have a right to want all of it back? Example (and tell me if this is a poor example but only one I could think of) if in ww2 Germany won and took half of England, would it be genocidal talk for the english inhabitants to want to take back all of England? This example obviously doesn't factor in historical claims to the land.
Have you been to occupied West bank? Settler violence has become a way of life for the unprotected Palestinians, they use guns, threaten you and if you dont leave your land they kill you, unprovoked! What is more terrorising than to hate and harm an individual for their very existence
The underlying issue is the difference between the two sets of people; differences which are then exacerbated and heightened by extremists and perhaps enabled by outsiders.
And you didn't bother me btw. I'm just pointing out the flaws in your observations.
well ignore my posts about it then. its a discussion forum
What are those differences between the two sets of people? Are those differences unique to any other two sets of people living in a single country or two bordering countries?
Stop lying .
I know people who were there and there was none of that. The stewards wouldnt allow that to happen. i know that as my cousin was a steward yesterday.
It would be funny if there wasn't so much death and destruction going on.
People are wondering if flying the Palestinian flag will become an offence and this guy thinks it's going to be ok to fly the ISIS flag in demonstrations
I honestly don't know if you're being deliberately ignorant or obtuse, but if not, you are incredibly uninformed or misinformed despite countless posters here trying to help you see where your posts are factually wrong and where also your comments could be offensive at times., albeit unintentionally.
The amount of links sent countering your posts in reply have stacked up and it's as if you ignore them completely because like the above post here, you just keep repeating the same arguments despite being repeatedly told they are wrong.
Your point Gazans voted ... How many times do you have to be told NEARLY 20 YEARS AGO! When well over half of the current population were not even born yet or old enough to vote. So that point is absolutely null and void. So why keep repeating it?
Again you repeat another point that you have been called on numerous times.
Israel's government doesn't want the extermination of all Palestinians.
That's bollocks. Agreed lots don't, but many do. Bibi has said it numerous times as have many of his cabinet ministers and army and air force members and high ranking officers. So have many Israeli citizens too. There have been countless videos and articles posted in this thread, so have you missed them all? Don't believe them? Or are just chosing to ignore them because they don't fit your agenda?
They must have huge support so they can build tunnels and rockets.
Again, agreed they do have support but when over half the population are kids, many are elderly and the majority live in constant fear and abject poverty, add to that brainwashing and watching their land be stolen and having to live in what has been called an open air prison, I feel that tarring everyone with the same brush and calling them all terrorists is just lazy and misses so many different points. Again, I will reiterate this is not defending terrorists or Hamas or actions, but understanding the innocent civilians caught up in it all.
This is a shocker of a post really. Again you harp on about the elections. And worse still you openly admit YOU DONT KNOW. So why keep mentioning it when you admit you don't know? And also it's been countered dozens of times in this thread and all over the internet regarding the population today, but back when the elections were held it was still only a 73% turnout (so a quarter not voting) and Hamas.got 44% of the votes and it's been widely reported that they wouldn't have won any elections if any had been held since.
It's really simple, you can side with the Israelis or the Palestinians but you have to be able to back your arguments up for doing so. Continually blaming one side is just ignorant and shows severe bias.
I don't support Hamas and I think their actions have been vile, disgusting and they have definitely committed war crimes. I do support the innocent Palestinians.
I don't support Israel either, but i also don't support Israels response to the attacks and a lot of their actions since includong their disproportionate response. I also don't support their continued treatment of the Palestinians and the continued stealing of land. I do support the innocent Israeli people. I completely understand the anger and fear from both sides and I try to be as objective as possible. I just find it infuriating to see others like yourself that are just staunchly on one side, especially when you not only keep repeating stuff that is false, not pertinent or that has been countered and debunked.
I don't expect to change opinions, although I do think when people are wrong and presented with reasons and evidence to show why they are wrong then it shows weakness of character or intelligence that they refuse to do so and instead double down repeatedly or argue just for the sake of it. Either that, or I just think they are trolling and intentionally wumming the topic they are posting in.
Personally I also feel that certain arguments that keep getting repeated despite evidence or reasons showing why they are wrong or false should be ignored or even just removed by the mods. I don't like censorship but at the same time it's fecking incredibly frustrating reading the same things over and over again and it really doesn't help the threads discussion.
It's especially difficult in this with such emotive and sensitive issues that has so many nuances and so much historical events and changes of power, different countries, cultures and religions and religious factions and sects involved too, but that's why it's so important we don't get bogged down with endless pages of arguing over or discussing things that have already been repeatedly argued and discussed or agreed upon.
It's really quite simple, you absolutely cannot in good faith blame everyone or tar everyone with the same brush like you are with the Palestinians or as others do with the Israelis. To do so is not only ignorant but it's just fecking inhuman too. Saying Gaza voted for Hamas when the turnout and vote percentage has been shown and the current demographics have been explained showing many weren't born or old enough to vote and that of those who did many either did not vote or didn't vote for Hamas, and then lumping them all together is just ignorant and lazy or it shows a clear racist or Islamaphobic bias or even hatred. And again, it doesn't help the thread.
Here's the original Hamas Doctrine with all last and current amendments and some discussion and links to articles pertaining to events surrounding its conception and history including lots of links to articles from other countries and world leaders comments surrounding it, Hamas and Palestine and Israel.
https://iranprimer.usip.org/blog/2023/oct/19/doctrine-hamas
Here's a decent link to the last Palestinian Elections, again with lots of links to articles helping understand the various issues with the election, the results, percentages, demographics and helps explain the opposition party and the outside worlds support of them, especially the USA and how they armed them and how this isn't as simple as many keep making it out to be. It should also show you that even if Hamas are destroyed then they will just be replaced by another group, just with a different name.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election
While all this is going on, innocent people on both sides are living in fear or dying or seeing their homes and lives destroyed. The fact they are still being blamed by some on both sides is fecking infuriating to me.
Rant over/
Sorry for the long post.
“I met Hamas (leadership) last month and Hamas has committed to me, and publicly on Al-Jazeera, that it would accept an agreement negotiated between Palestine and Israel, provided its is submitted to the Palestinian people in a referendum or if there is an elected unity government. That means that they accept Israel’s right to exist, to live in peace.”
Jimmy Carter
Jimmy Carter
Wow. You are twisting the words here.
What was said is that Gazans aren't totally innocent due to their unwavering support of Hamas.
Nobody here ever said they deserve it. That's how the propaganda works. And such replies aren't helpful to have civilized discussion.
I'm a bit dismayed with the lack of a strong reaction by Israel society against the current government. I understand the circumstances are not the best with the Hamas attack but this organization was enabled by Bibi and his cronies and there's no accountability.
I also don't think the Bibi is finished after the war opinion is a foregone conclusion. His disdain for the hostages and brutality towards Palestinians demanded a more energetic response and push back from Israeli society.
I also don't think the Bibi is finished after the war opinion is a foregone conclusion. His disdain for the hostages and brutality towards Palestinians demanded a more energetic response and push back from Israeli society.
I've read that his approval ratings have dropped to around ~20-30%, but it's hard to say if that has anything to do with how he is handling the Palestinians or how he is handling Hamas.
My guess would be that it is down to how Hamas managed such a brutal attack on Israelis and how the hostages was second in his thoughts, rather than any real sympathy with the Palestinians growing among the population of Israel.
I'm not surprised at public reaction in Israel given how these events tend to securitize the population and galvanize them into behaving as one to disarm and remove the threat to ensure they never have to go through it again. Its very similar to the US mindset immediately post 9/11 where the public were collectively focused on pursuing the assailants no matter where. Hamas have ostensibly done to Israel what their own government couldn't, which was galvanize an otherwise fraying society to into one that sees an existential threat that has to be dealt with immediately.
Not saying this is 100% true, maybe some of those in Israel can shed some light.
I've read and am told that Israeli society is "shielded" from the plight of the Palestinians by the Israeli government.
So you have moved the goalposts then? Fine.
Harris was a persona non grata by 1945, and his reputation never recovered.
Still doesn't distract from the main point - the mass bombings of German civilian centres received criticism during the war, both in the UK and US, from media and politicians.
Wow. You are twisting the words here.
What was said is that Gazans aren't totally innocent due to their unwavering support of Hamas.
Nobody here ever said they deserve it. That's how the propaganda works. And such replies aren't helpful to have civilized discussion.
Gazans aren't totally innocent.?...by that logic any israeli citizen isn't innocent either and is culpable for crimes committed by the israeli govt, one by the way that includes self proclaimed racists and violent jewish fanatics like belzebub smotrich, who bibi put in charge of settlements. Politicians voted for by Israel. Thus you're agreeing with hamas that any citizen is no longer considered a civilian?
Wow. You are twisting the words here.
What was said is that Gazans aren't totally innocent due to their unwavering support of Hamas.
Nobody here ever said they deserve it. That's how the propaganda works. And such replies aren't helpful to have civilized discussion.
Saying someone isn’t innocent implies an element of blame and by extension that they deserve what has happened to them. I read your post, your words aren’t being twisted at all.
When did he say this?
Many people believe that this is not the time, and that the time for that will be after the war ends.
Personally I believe that this is ABSULOTELY the time, and it's clear Netanyahu is already busy making political maneuvers and his future defence over his accountability.
Unfortunately, with so many dead - many not identified yet - so many abducted, and daily battles both in the north and the south, people's heads are elsewhere.
Plus, it should be mentioned that getting of the house is something many try to avoid due to rocket fire. So the strong reaction which does partly exist is on social media and the press only.
There are very few reports inn Israel over what is happening in Gaza. My newspaper (Haaretz) does report it but not many read it (and many see those reporters as 'traitors').
I'm sure the average Brit or American or whatever is far more exposed to the Gaza strip than the average Israeli.
It's the same about what's happening in the West Bank as well, and not just in the last couple of weeks. It's a regular thing.
Understandable but I hope we will finally see the end of Bibi soon. Thank you for your response and stay safe Amir.
Could it also be some kind of protest-fatigue playing into this? After all, many of his opponents spent months protesting his new reforms.
Circa 2008/2009.
There is a lot of stuff about his, Carter's, efforts including his diary/memoirs in his attempts to meet all the parties and try and get some communication towards a peace plan.
It's interesting that the Israeli govt refused to speak to him or host him and likes of Kofi Annan. Carter even says trying talking to Netanyahu would be a waste of time.
Carter centre archives
Well it could just refer to ethnic cleansing to be fair. Which is exactly what the Israelis have planned for Gaza. Kind of foolish of the Palestinian supporters to advocate ethnic cleansing since it justifies the same thing happening to the Palestinians in the minds of the Israelis. Like having a gun at your head and saying you plan to kill the person holding it.
Strongly intimating that Gaza authorities /hamas have intentionally sanitized the site.
Can't imagine the sheer horror of all this.
I don't think it's fatigue. On the contrary, under normal circumstances this would have fired up the protesters even further.
However, take this into account: Many of the protesters you have mentioned have now been called up for reserve duty or are aiding either the IDF or the survivors as volunteers - since the system itself has absolutely failed, after years of being destroyed by Netanyahu and his band of corrupt idiots.
I personally suspect he’s done when this is over, and he knows it. His whole shtick has been security through his laws etc and it’s spectacularly backfired.
That obviously makes sense. Tough to protest when you're at the front.
How is Netanyahu's standing right now anyway? Is he benefiting from the situation?
Since we see it fairly often if my math are correct a maximum of 7.9% of Gaza's current population voted for Hamas. That's a little more than the proportion of Israelis that voted for Otzma Yehudit which is seen as descendant of the Kach party, we don't even have to consider other movements or the far bigger Likud, Ben Gvir's party is a match to Hamas in terms of popularity.
These people don’t see any sort of reality. They can’t accept that even 1967 borders aren’t realistic. They can’t accept the legitimate concerns that Israel will have. I summed it up rightly or wrongly to him as : “I think that if anybody seriously wants to broker peace and make a 2 state solution then both sides need to hear some home truths which will be difficult. It’s not going back to the 1967 borders, Jerusalem needs a delicate deal, and Israel cannot keep empowering terrorist settlers and ministers. Palestinians need security from terror too. That said, it would need to be impressed on Palestinians that any militant action against their neighbours will likely result in invasion and I’m not sure anybody sees the majority of their leadership as honest brokers with enough control to prevent it, or to prevent a pa,hamas becoming another Iranian proxy. “ and obviously he didn’t reply. There’s a huge disconnect between what we think are realistic solutions and what the western free Palestine supporter feels is one.
It doesn't help that many arab israelis are now being persecuted within israel, through losing their jobs to being jailed for even mentioning palestine..
The two state solution is dead and buried. But even those ideas of two states that have been floated over the past 25 years by politicians have spoken of a Palestine with no standing army or real defensive capabilities.