Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Raoul said:
It wouldn't matter if Netanyahu wanted them in power or not years ago. What they did last weekend was wrong and no sane Israeli politician would tolerate it without seeking to remove them once and for all.
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If they weren't supported by money, funneled through Netnayahu, they wouldn't be able to stay in power. Without power they wouldn't be capable of smuggling in Iran's weapons. Without those weapons, no ability to do 7th October.

You got to understand that Netanyahu said this in Mars 2019 when Gaza was rising up against Hamas, and he decided he had to save Hamas...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-47616809
 
JPRouve said:
I posted the video, it's the second part of them being aware.
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I’m being probably being overly critical but it just seemed like a load of emotional rhetoric to me.

can we read between the lines and come to the conclusion he’s really saying “innocent Palestinian civilians are complicit in the Hamas lead attack and are therefore themselves targets?” Not sure.
 
I will add to my rather lengthy post, that there is a lot of semantics being used as some kind of justification here.

This thread is actually a pretty good comparison to the real events in the region or to most wars or even arguments anywhere about most things. The majority on either side claim to be right and reuse to apologise or accept making mistakes and refuse to back down. Refusal to see the other side and the inability to separate Palestinians and Palestine from Hamas or Israelis from their government.

That is the same in the Russia/Ukraine thread, gun control, abortion, Brexit.......

It's always the same with topics or situations where emotions run high. Poor knowledge is part, bad or impartial news sources is another part as is the inability to be able to see reason or the other side of things due to personal experience or historical experience and teachings.

Abizzz said:
I'll respond to your post because at least I know your arguments are genuine.

I've been reading this thread intensely for the past days (off and on before that) and it's full of people proclaiming country A is "embarrassing" itself for saying Israel is allowed to defend itself, people claiming "this is genocide", " Humans and western countries are cancers to earth ".

Yea but sure I'm sullying the discourse by stating my observation (Those are exact quotes I just don't quote them because, again, I have no interest in interaction).


And of course it is possible to just always side with the innocent. 100% of the time, in every conflict the world over at any point in history. Only it achieves nothing, helps the innocent person nada and does nothing for no one other than for the person proclaiming to be on the side of the innocent. Unless you actually do something to help the innocent person it means feck all.

At a time when the Gaza population supports Hamas and the Israeli population supports it's government supporting either is tantamount to supporting the other. (And I don't support either 100%, only to widely varying %).

So you think Israel has a way to respond to this that wouldn't have the same people screaming bloody murder? An actually effective way that may give them some security not another 1000+ people will be randomly killed because that's just about as many the enemy could manage? If Hamas had the capability Israel does have Israel would not exist right now.

It seems some think they can extrapolate another humans position on every aspect of a conflict on the basis of an observation about the discourse on a forum.
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Thank you for your reply. I think I've covered a lot in my post above that continued my previous one.

I don't think the entire Gaza population does support Hamas, I think many feel powerless and the same as many Israelis, are fecking sick and tired of it all and just want to live their lives. In peace and without fear.

The fact 47% of the Gaza population are children says a lot. It also helps explain why many may support Hamas. Be it brainwashing or lack of education or just experience of always living in poverty and fear whilst watching their land be stolen. It also doesn't help that the vast majority of the Western world continues to support Israel all the time. Oppression, poverty and fear are powerful reasons to move people towards terrorism or becoming a fanatic.

I just find it all upsetting and, no I don't have the answers. I don't see how Israel can respond at times, especially as Hamas do hide in populated areas and hospitals etc. However, seeing Israel go all out and hearing their leaders saying shit like wanting to burn Gaza to the ground, not leaving anything left, seeing them cut water, electricity and aid and cutting off roads out and that no Palestinian is innocent. Seeing countries refuse to take in refugees and seeing almost every country side with Israel and the US deploying aircraft carriers etc.... All against a population of mainly kids and elderly and without a proper army or modern weapons.... It's just fecking heartbreaking and disgusting and cannot be justified at all.

However, the killing of people at a music festival is truly vile too. As is dead babies, no matter how they were killed. But that's the thing. Hamas unequivocally denied murdering the babies or beheading them, but so did Israel. Nobody has shown absolute proof of who was responsible. The sheer fact it happened is beyond words tbh. As is the bombing of those evacuating. Again both sides deny their involvement, but yet again innocent civilians die and the war of words and media bias and disinformation continues alongside the fighting and forthcoming invasion from Israel and continued rocket attacks from Hamas.

I don't have the answers, I wish I did. The only thing I can add is that yet again this is showing the true divides in the modern world. Thankfully this thread hasn't promoted some of the shit I'm seeing from right wing lunatics here in the UK who are so one sided and biased it's untrue.

This whole shit show is 100% being used now by those who are against multiculturalism in the UK (and I presume elsewhere) it's also being used by racists and anti-Semitic bigots as an excuse to attack Jews in the UK. It's being used to highlight the immigrant (legal or illegal) and refugee situation that's dominating UK news and politics too. Yesterday's demonstration in London was pounced upon to say we can't live together and that we are now being outnumbered by terrorist supporters and sympathisers. All because people want to see the continued oppression of Palestinians end and as peaceful a solution as possible found.

I'm sure if all the world leaders stopped siding with Israel and came together to end this by threatening togetherness and if needed, force, then sat down with both sides and spent all the time and energy they are using trying to score pokitical points off each other, then maybe an agreement could be reached. But for that to happen both sides would have to be willing to back down and that's where the real issue lies. It's never going to happen.

I ultimately feel it's all futile and we are going to continue to watch an absolute nightmare unfold. I just hope it doesn't escalate to the point where other countries get involved which is sadly what I think Hamas are hoping for.

Until then, I'm bagging up loads of clothes to send over and I've got a collection tin on the bar that we are going to send the money from to help the refugee camps get food and medical necessities to those who need it most. I hope some miracle occurs and common sense prevails and a long lasting peaceful solution can be found. But realistically, I can't see that happening. Which is just very, very sad. But what's sad to me isn't anywhere near the same stratosphere as the poor innocent people involved in all this who just want to stop living in fear and just fecking live in peace.
 
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Simbo said:
I don't think Israel has signed up to the treaty that outlaw's it, like many other countries, so it wouldn't apply to them if we're talking international laws. Still criminal to the eyes of the world if they are using that on civilians of course, but then so is a 500lb bomb.
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They have signed the CCW protocol 3 which restricts the use of incindiery weapons like WP. The protocol does not however ban the use of smoke shells with a secondary incindiery effect so it's still possible for them to use WP in smoke shells. But if used in the close proximity of civilians the use of WP smoke shells should still be considered a war crime.
 
fergieisold said:
I’m being probably being overly critical but it just seemed like a load of emotional rhetoric to me.

can we read between the lines and come to the conclusion he’s really saying “innocent Palestinian civilians are complicit in the Hamas lead attack and are therefore themselves targets?” Not sure.
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I'm not reading between the lines but the actual lines. He literally tells you that the palestinian nation, the civilians aren't innocent and that they will break their backbones.
 
Statement of the Members of the European Council on the situation in the Middle East
Today, the members of the European Council have adopted a statement that sets the EU’s common position on the unfolding situation in the Middle East.
The European Union condemns in the strongest possible terms Hamas and its brutal and indiscriminate terrorist attacks across Israel and deeply deplores the loss of lives. There is no justification for terror. We strongly emphasize Israel’s right to defend itself in line with humanitarian and international law in the face of such violent and indiscriminate attacks. We reiterate the importance to ensure the protection of all civilians at all times in line with International Humanitarian Law.
We call on Hamas to immediately release all hostages without any precondition. We reiterate the importance of the provision of urgent humanitarian aid and stand ready to continue supporting those civilians most in need in Gaza in coordination with partners, ensuring that such assistance is not abused by terrorist organisations. It is crucial to prevent regional escalation.
We remain committed to a lasting and sustainable peace based on the two-state solution through reinvigorated efforts in the Middle East Peace Process. We underline the need to engage broadly with the legitimate Palestinian authorities as well as regional and international partners who could have a positive role to play in preventing further escalation.


 
Pintu said:
If they weren't supported by money, funneled through Netnayahu, they wouldn't be able to stay in power. Without power they wouldn't be capable of smuggling in Iran's weapons. Without those weapons, no ability to do 7th October.

You got to understand that Netanyahu said this in Mars 2019 when Gaza was rising up against Hamas, and he decided he had to save Hamas...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-47616809
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Don't kid yourself. They're an Iranian proxy and get most of their money from Iran. The attempt to link them to Netanyahu, and subsequent logic that the Israelis are somehow responsible for Hamas' behavior won't be remotely convincing to any rational person.
 
the hea said:
They have signed the CCW protocol 3 which restricts the use of incindiery weapons like WP. The protocol does not however ban the use of smoke shells with a secondary incindiery effect so it's still possible for them to use WP in smoke shells. But if used in the close proximity of civilians the use of WP smoke shells should still be considered a war crime.
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Checking further, they don't appear to be party to protocol 3?

https://geneva-s3.unoda.org/static-...acting-parties-and-signatories-ccw/ISRAEL.pdf
 
Raoul said:
It wouldn't matter if Netanyahu wanted them in power or not years ago. What they did last weekend was wrong and no sane Israeli politician would tolerate it without seeking to remove them once and for all.
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No one questioning the horror and plain insanity of what happened a week ago and why the Hamas has to go.

However, it very much matters in the sense that you can't keep playing with fire forever. It shows how cynical and ultimately short-sighted his policy was. It puts the events in context and kills the notion that the war started one week ago. They genuinely thought they could keep the conflict at "low-intensity" by simply forgetting about the Gazans in their prison and propping up an extremist, and clearly hostile organization to justify the absence of a valid dialogue partner while pursuing an aggressive settlement policy in the West Bank. It also shows the absolute lack of interest in a two-states solution from the Israeli government who holds all the cards.

It does matter to understand why it came to this. It does matter if you don't want to repeat the mistakes of the past. It does matter if you truly seek a long-term solution for both Israel and Palestine.

It does matter if you want peace.
 
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That_Bloke said:
No one questioning the horror and plain insanity of what happened a week ago and why the Hamas has to go.

However, it very much matters in the sense that you can't keep playing with fire forever. It shows how cynical and ultimately short-sighted his policy was. It puts the events in context and kills the notion that the war started one week ago. They genuinely thought they could keep the conflict at "low-intensity" by simply forgetting about the Gazans in their prison and propping up an extremist, and clearly hostile organization to justify the absence of a valid dialogue, while pursuing an aggressive settlement policy in the West Bank. It also shows the absolute lack of interest in a two-states solution by the Israeli government.

It does matter to understand why it came to this. It does matter if you don't want to repeat the mistakes of the past. It does matter if you truly seek a long-term solution for both Israel and Palestine.

It does matter if you really want peace.
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I agree that Netanyahu's position was cynical and unproductive, but there is a possibility he wasn't for a two state solution because he rejected the idea of an internationally recognized nation state led by a terrorist organization on Israeli borders. In such a view, a divide an conquer strategy among the two Palestinian factions would have been preferable to allowing Hamas in charge of its own country - a view that would has been validated by the events of the past week.

With Hamas now on their way out, it will remove that excuse from the Israeli playbook and create more International pressure for a political solution.
 
Raoul said:
Don't kid yourself. They're an Iranian proxy and get most of their money from Iran. The attempt to link them to Netanyahu, and subsequent logic that the Israelis are somehow responsible for Hamas' behavior won't be remotely convincing to any rational person.
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Iran gives them rockets... Rockets can’t keep them in power in face of a Palestinaian uprising… Israel can.

On another note:

 
Pintu said:
Iran gives them rockets... Rockets can’t keep them in power in face of a Palestinaian uprising… Israel can.

On another note:

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Yes, obviously the Israelis control the water/power and other services going into Gaza. There are about 40k Hamas fighters in Gaza of an otherwise population of 2.5 million, so it would strain credulity to make an argument that the Israelis allowing civilians in Gaza to exist would support Hamas. They are there by force and ordinary Gazans can't do anything about it.
 
Raoul said:
there is a possibility he wasn't for a two state solution because he rejected the idea of an internationally recognized nation state led by a terrorist organization on Israeli borders
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He’s against the creation of a Palestinian state on principle. This has been his consistent position for a long time and reflects the ideological impulse that drives the party he leads:

 
Raoul said:
Yes, obviously the Israelis control the water/power and other services going into Gaza.
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These services do not have to be controlled by Hamas. Israel wants them to be controlled by Hamas... Israel overseas the money transfers that pay Hamas’ salaries to their “civilian & social workers”…

All of this was a huge mistake. It’s now blowing up in their faces.

Here is what current Israeli finance minister (Smotrich the famously self proclaimed “proud homophobe”) said about Hamas:

 
it looks like Egypt’s blackmailing methods are working. The US want the egyptian aid allowed into Gaza.

 
2cents said:
He’s against the creation of a Palestinian state on principle. This has been his consistent position for a long time and reflects the ideological impulse that drives the party he leads:

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Thanks I've seen this. The recent Saudi/Israel normalization deal has required concessions on the part of the Israelis, so if they want normalized relations with regional Arab states, it will require being open to it, albeit with limited sovereignty.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/01/middleeast/netanyahu-palestinian-sovereignty-mime-intl/index.html

Netanyahu made clear that while he’s “open” to negotiations with the Palestinians and is willing to cooperate with them on security matters, not much else will move.

Netanyahu has never been a full-throated supporter of a two-state solution, weaving in and out of different definitions of what that would mean. But in recent years he’s settled on the idea that he’d be open to a Palestinian state - as long as it has no military or security power, an arrangement that would have no parallel among modern sovereign states.
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Its clear the Israeli position has therefore been to use normalized relations with Saudi and other Arab nations as a way to deal with the issue, which would allow them to not have to negotiate directly with Hamas. The Saudis would obviously like that as well since it would curb Iranian power.
 
Pintu said:
These services do not have to be controlled by Hamas. Israel wants them to be controlled by Hamas... Israel overseas the money transfers that pay Hamas’ salaries to their “civilian & social workers”…

All of this was a huge mistake. It’s now blowing up in their faces.

Here is what current Israeli finance minister (Smotrich the famously self proclaimed “proud homophobe”) said about Hamas:

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Even if you were to assume that is true, it still wouldn't come within light years of in any way justifying what Hamas did last weekend.
 
Raoul said:
Thanks I've seen this. The recent Saudi/Israel normalization deal has required concessions on the part of the Israelis, so if they want normalized relations with regional Arab states, it will require being open to it, albeit with limited sovereignty.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/01/middleeast/netanyahu-palestinian-sovereignty-mime-intl/index.html



Its clear the Israeli position has therefore been to use normalized relations with Saudi and other Arab nations as a way to deal with the issue, which would allow them to not have to negotiate directly with Hamas. The Saudis would obviously like that as well since it would curb Iranian power.
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Netanyahu's position is an idiotic one. You're not a sovereign state if you don't have absolute military or security sovereignity within your own borders. Without that you're just a Bantustan
 
adexkola said:
Netanyahu's position is an idiotic one. You're not a sovereign state if you don't have absolute military or security sovereignity within your own borders. Without that you're just a Bantustan
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And the alternative of a Hamas run state on Israel's borders is obviously even less realistic. At least everyone can finally agree that Hamas not being part of the mix will be a good thing for both sides going forward.
 
Raoul said:
I agree that Netanyahu's position was cynical and unproductive, but there is a possibility he wasn't for a two state solution because he rejected the idea of an internationally recognized nation state led by a terrorist organization on Israeli borders. In such a view, a divide an conquer strategy among the two Palestinian factions would have been preferable to allowing Hamas in charge of its own country - a view that would has been validated by the events of the past week.

With Hamas now on their way out, it will remove that excuse from the Israeli playbook and create more International pressure for a political solution.
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He never was for a two-states solution from the get-go, no matter who would lead the Palestinian state (link below). Just like the Hamas. He was an active opponent to the Oslo Accord and Yithzak Rabin. He never believed in it for one second. There are many Israeli posters here and I don't think they'll disagree with me. He's been caught on tape in 2001 saying "I de facto put an end to the Oslo Accord" to a group of settlers (link below, it's quite enlightening). Also the Palestinian Authority formally recognized Israel as a state but the latter never returned the "courtesy" to this day.

With all due respect, you're infantilizing the Palestinians. The Hamas and islamist movements were marginal and the PLO was the one leading the dance. The Gazans turned to Hamas out of despair because the PA, which accepted to play the legal game with Israel, wasn't able to get anything done. Said PA that was purposefully weakened by Israel, but also and to be fair, failed to live up to the expectations. Extremists thrive on suffering and despair, it's not exclusive to the Palestinians. And Hamas rules by force since 2007.

We can hope for the best, although I remain extremely sceptical. Without international pressure, nothing will be done and I fear that what happened might well have ruined any hope of a peaceful solution. Or maybe it's a wake-up call. There are so many people from both sides who wish to leave together in peace, but are thwarted in their efforts by their respective governments. One of them is a wonderful man, an incurable optimist, called Ofer Bronchtein. He was a strategic advisor of Yithzak Rabin and the founder of the International Forum for Peace. If you speak french, I'd recommend to hear what he says. There are plenty of videos on YouTube (in french only sadly, at least from what I found) about what's happening right now.




 
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Do we know if drinking water has been turned on in the south of the gaza strip? My knowledge of gaza is limited as to how dribking water is processed and a few posts on twitter have said that without electricity there is no clean water just sewage water which will lead to infections and diease.

I really hope and pray that common sense prevails soon and that food, water and medical supplies can be provided for the civilians of gaza.

As a civilisation we surely cant standby and watch a million + people die of thirst.
 
Raoul said:
And the alternative of a Hamas run state on Israel's borders is obviously even less realistic. At least everyone can finally agree that Hamas not being part of the mix will be a good thing for both sides going forward.
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But that is the default. It was said about Fatah and Sinn Fein for decades too. It's the default get out when you have no interest in the solution.
 
Raoul said:
The recent Saudi/Israel normalization deal has required concessions on the part of the Israelis
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We don’t know the details of this proposal or even how far along the road it was before last week. We do know that the Abraham Accords were not accompanied by any significant concessions on the Palestinian question, bar Netanyahu deciding against explicit annexation in the West Bank if that can count.
 
Belisarius said:
Raoul was responding to a question I posed of whether people thought Hamas had something else planned. Because if they don't, it is hard for me to understand the reasoning behind their original attack.

I have heard the theory that it is coordinated by Iran and Hezbollah may get involved. But, I haven't seen anything that makes me believe this theory, though of course Hezbollah may join the fighting if their people get angry enough about what is now occurring in Gaza.

But, if Hamas made the decision to initiate this on their own, surely they must have had something else in mind beyond the initial attack.
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Personally, I think Hamas leadership, safe I Qatar, do not care how many of their own people they sacrifice. Anyone could have predicted that Israel would respond to a widespread terrorist attack that killed over a thousand civilians with overwhelming force.
But this was clearly worth it to Hamas leaders' calculations because they value more hurting Israel than protecting their own people. They were probably encouraged by Iran who would clearly see this opportunity as a great chance to scupper Israel-SA talks.
 
The only true solution for peace is respecting UN resolution and respecting the Oslo agreement, those Palestinians will not leave their land that they lived on for thousands of years.
 
Meanwhile here in the US - senior Republican war lovers like Lindsay Graham are trying to find any possible reason to attack Iran. Didn't take long to lift the veil I guess.
 
Raoul said:
And the alternative of a Hamas run state on Israel's borders is obviously even less realistic. At least everyone can finally agree that Hamas not being part of the mix will be a good thing for both sides going forward.
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Hamas out of the picture will change nothing. We all know what happened after the Oslo agreement and the same will happen to any Israeli leader who dare to disband the settlements in the occupied land.
 
langster said:
Posts like this really do not help this thread at all. I cannot recall seeing one single post where anyone says the Israeli deaths were fine. Not one saying Hamas are right. However there are plenty saying the Israeli response is fine.

Why is that?

It's infuriating seeing posts such as yours where you accuse others of something when you are being so one sided and disingenuous yourself. Not even trying to hide clear bias yet accusing others of it indiscriminately.

It is possible to just be on the side of innocent people from both sides in all of this.

It's possible to support Palestinians but not Hamas, it's also possible to support Israeli people but not their government or military or their actions. It's also possible to do that and not be an anti-Semite.

It's also possible to agree Israel have every right to respond with force, but not to agree with how they sre going about it (the same way they always do) or agree with their motives behind the way they are doing so or the language used by many of their leaders as to how and what and why.

It's also entirely possible to be able to understand and explain actions without justifying them or apologising for them or agreeing with them.

It seems that many can't see or understand a difference between understanding and explaining and justifying. Nor can they understand others who can do these things as it seems everyone has to have a side. Honestly it's like kindergarten level of debating and discussion at times and none of it helps this thread in the slightest.
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Well said
 
moses said:
But that is the default. It was said about Fatah and Sinn Fein for decades too. It's the default get out when you have no interest in the solution.
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That was true until last Saturday.

I agree with you and there's never been a military solution to a conflict.

However the scale of the attack and the amount of victims means that Hamas can't and won't ever be negociated with. The PA is completely discredited, as well as Mahmoud Abbas who's 88. Imo, if Israel is really intent on finding a political solution, the only palestinian political figure who could be a credible alternative is Marwan Barghouti.
 
Giggsyking said:
Are annoyed by my posts? When I show solidarity with Palestinian children?

If anything your posts reek apology for the IDF war crimes. You do not even try to hide it.
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I'm not picking either but youre very obviously emotionally connected to one side only.

I don't know anything about the politics of this war so I don't comment on that, but I do know a little bit about the military side so that's what I'm responding to. Israel's bombing so far will almost certainly not be seen as war crimes. The only dodgy one I've seen so far is the strike on the evacuation route but I've no clue of the context of it and neither does anybody else outside the IDF.
 
2cents said:
We don’t know the details of this proposal or even how far along the road it was before last week. We do know that the Abraham Accords were not accompanied by any significant concessions on the Palestinian question, bar Netanyahu deciding against explicit annexation in the West Bank if that can count.
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The Palestinian issue was specifically cited by MBS in the interview I posted a few pages ago. That’s not to say the deal would’ve resulted in a two state solution of course, but it would obviously be a major consideration from the Saudi side to gain concessions from the Israelis so that MBS could improve his regional cachet as the guy who moved the needle on the issue.
 
Fareed Zakaria explained that the Israeli-Saudi deal is likely to still go ahead in the future but that MBS must keep the religious fundamentalists off his back for now.
 
Raoul said:
The Palestinian issue was specifically cited by MBS in the interview I posted a few pages ago. That’s not to say the deal would’ve resulted in a two state solution of course, but it would obviously be a major consideration from the Saudi side to gain concessions from the Israelis so that MBS could improve his regional cachet as the guy who moved the needle on the issue.
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Yes but that has been the Saudi position for more than twenty years. The question here is Netanyahu’s willingness to amend an ideological position he’s consistently held to his entire life, through turbulent wars and politics. It’s not impossible that he may do so but we have no evidence of it as yet, and no reason to give him the benefit of the doubt as things stand.
 
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