Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

langster said:
Posts like this really do not help this thread at all. I cannot recall seeing one single post where anyone says the Israeli deaths were fine. Not one saying Hamas are right. However there are plenty saying the Israeli response is fine.

Why is that?

It's infuriating seeing posts such as yours where you accuse others of something when you are being so one sided and disingenuous yourself. Not even trying to hide clear bias yet accusing others of it indiscriminately.
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I'll respond to your post because at least I know your arguments are genuine.

I've been reading this thread intensely for the past days (off and on before that) and it's full of people proclaiming country A is "embarrassing" itself for saying Israel is allowed to defend itself, people claiming "this is genocide", " Humans and western countries are cancers to earth ".

Yea but sure I'm sullying the discourse by stating my observation (Those are exact quotes I just don't quote them because, again, I have no interest in interaction).


And of course it is possible to just always side with the innocent. 100% of the time, in every conflict the world over at any point in history. Only it achieves nothing, helps the innocent person nada and does nothing for no one other than for the person proclaiming to be on the side of the innocent. Unless you actually do something to help the innocent person it means feck all.
langster said:
It's possible to support Palestinians but not Hamas, it's also possible to support Israeli people but not their government or military or their actions. It's also possible to do that and not be an anti-Semite.
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At a time when the Gaza population supports Hamas and the Israeli population supports it's government supporting either is tantamount to supporting the other. (And I don't support either 100%, only to widely varying %).
langster said:
It's also possible to agree Israel have every right to respond with force, but not to agree with how they sre going about it (the same way they always do) or agree with their motives behind the way they are doing so or the language used by many of their leaders as to how and what and why.
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So you think Israel has a way to respond to this that wouldn't have the same people screaming bloody murder? An actually effective way that may give them some security not another 1000+ people will be randomly killed because that's just about as many the enemy could manage? If Hamas had the capability Israel does have Israel would not exist right now.
langster said:
It seems that many can't see or understand a difference between understanding and explaining and justifying. Nor can they understand others who can do these things as it seems everyone has to have a side. Honestly it's like kindergarten level of debating and discussion at times and none of it helps this thread in the slightest.
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It seems some think they can extrapolate another humans position on every aspect of a conflict on the basis of an observation about the discourse on a forum.
 
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The propaganda machine is ridiculous… They are trying to manufacture consent for mass ethnic cleansing… And they aren’t even bothering to use real blood? No butcher’s shop around?
 
Abizzz said:
I'll respond to your post because at least I know your arguments are genuine.

I've been reading this thread intensely for the past days (off and on before that) and it's full of people proclaiming country A is "embarrassing" itself for saying Israel is allowed to defend itself, people claiming "this is genocide", " Humans and western countries are cancers to earth ".

Yea but sure I'm sullying the discourse by stating my observation (Those are exact quotes I just don't quote them because, again, I have no interest in interaction).


And of course it is possible to just always side with the innocent. 100% of the time, in every conflict the world over at any point in history. Only it achieves nothing, helps the innocent person nada and does nothing for no one other than for the person proclaiming to be on the side of the innocent. Unless you actually do something to help the innocent person it means feck all.

At a time when the Gaza population supports Hamas and the Israeli population supports it's government supporting either is tantamount to supporting the other. (And I don't support either 100%, only to widely varying %).

So you think Israel has a way to respond to this that wouldn't have the same people screaming bloody murder? An actually effective way that may give them some security not another 1000+ people will be randomly killed because that's just about as many the enemy could manage? If Hamas had the capability Israel does have Israel would not exist right now.

It seems some think they can extrapolate another humans position on every aspect of a conflict on the basis of an observation about the discourse on a forum.
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Would be interested in you responding to my response to yours above as it is a genuine question. Thanks.
 
flameinthesun said:
My question is not a "is one side right or wrong" question. Its a very simple question. If Israel have the right to defend themself when their civilians are killed and in doing so are allowed to murderer Palestinian civilians. Do the Palestinian people have the same right to defend themselves when their civilians are killed and in doing so are allowed to murder Israeli civilians?
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Yes they would.

Only that isn't what happened. If Hamas had told the concert goers (and all other places attacked) they're coming for person x that did thing y and they should evacuate not to get in the crossfire... maybe we'd have a discussion.
 
Abizzz said:
Yes they would.

Only that isn't what happened.
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Sorry, are you saying Israel has not killed Palestinian civilians? I'm confused. Maybe it's some kind of semantic escape route you're going for. But Israel is currently killing Palestinian civilians, hundreds of them.
 
NicolaSacco said:
Sorry, are you saying Israel has not killed Palestinian civilians? I'm confused. Maybe it's some kind of semantic escape route you're going for. But Israel is currently killing Palestinian civilians, hundreds of them.
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No I did not say that.
 
Water pipes in southern Gaza are back on.

White House national security adviser Jake Sullivan tells CNN that Israeli officials have informed him that water pipes in southern Gaza have been turned back on.

Speaking on CNN's State of the Union, Sullivan says Israeli officials informed him of the development in the last hour.
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Israeli's not backing down on rhetoric. Does seem like they'll take this fight against Hamas to the very end.

 
VorZakone said:
Israeli's not backing down on rhetoric. Does seem like they'll take this fight against Hamas to the very end.

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I don't think they will given that the narrative within Israel seems to be centered on revenge and removing Hamas once and for all, whereas the narrative outside is focused on the original attack last weekend and subsequent humanitarian crisis.
 
Abizzz said:
Only that isn't what happened. If Hamas had told the concert goers (and all other places attacked) they're coming for person x that did thing y and they should evacuate not to get in the crossfire... maybe we'd have a discussion.
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People aren't really going to believe you when you say this.
 
jadaba said:
It's worth noting that this attack that the IDF refers to in this video is not the same attack that has reportedly killed 70 Palestinians.

The FT have conducted an investigation into the one that is believed to have killed 70 Palestinians en route South Gaza and concludes that the "evidence points to IDF weapons."

They state that "analysis of the video footage rules out most explanations aside from an Israeli strike," and Chris Cobb-Smith, a former British army major and weapons and munitions expert also states that "the available evidence suggested the most likely cause of the blast was a missile strike."

There are also explanations as to why there's no crater, which I've seen referenced as a reason for doubt earlier in this thread, as well as why it's unlikely to be a car bomb.

I get the intuitive assumption that Israel wouldn't have anything to gain from stopping the evacuation, but let's be real there's a lot of evidence that armies often act in irrational ways in a war, especially when there's such an intense bloodlust as we've seen on display in the past few days.
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Wait, so there were multiple attacks on the same escape road yesterday? One considered most likely to be an Hamas IED, the other most likely a "targeted" Israeli missile? Innocent folk have no chance.
 


I get that it's a bit old but this statement was about the entire palestinian nation and specifically about civilians. I don't really understand how anyone can deny things that Israeli officials have clearly stated. They are not focusing on Hamas and they consider civilians as military targets. And in the West Banks where Hamas isn't really a thing, they are killing palestinians with the help of settlers.
 
Abizzz said:
This has somehow become a place where murdering 1000 + civilians in cold blood is fine but trying to find the murderers is not. 90% in here aren't worth engaging to be honest.
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Yes I'm sure to people with the memory of a goldfish it is hard to fathom.
 
Abizzz said:
Yes they would.

Only that isn't what happened. If Hamas had told the concert goers (and all other places attacked) they're coming for person x that did thing y and they should evacuate not to get in the crossfire... maybe we'd have a discussion.
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This is ridiculous Hasbara. Most of the arguments currently used to whitewash the ongoing Israeli ethnic cleansing could be used to defend Hamas’ terror

I believe Hamas said in their updated Charter of 2017 that their aim was to « liberate » every « settlement »… According to their updated charter they consider every Israeli village/city outside the initial UN partition Plan to be an active war zone (so the immediate vicinity of Gaza definitely falls under that definition)…


And if we are honest we gotta know that in truth they actually don’t believe in this charter. More likely the old one from 88 where they used to say all of « Palestine » (including Israel) must be « liberated from the Jews»…
 
flameinthesun said:
My question is not a "is one side right or wrong" question. Its a very simple question. If Israel have the right to defend themself when their civilians are killed and in doing so are allowed to murderer Palestinian civilians. Do the Palestinian people have the same right to defend themselves when their civilians are killed and in doing so are allowed to murder Israeli civilians?
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Its an interesting question, although that's clearly not what happened here since Hamas are representing their political interests (and those of Iran) and not those of the Palestinian people. If they were elected (as in recently) and there was overwhelming support for them by ordinary Gazans, then that would give more credibility to what you're describing.
 
Abizzz said:
No I did not say that.
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It seemed like what you were saying. And I have to say it’s quite telling that you have given a one line answer without then explaining what you did mean. Which was the whole point of the question.
 
Pintu said:
This is ridiculous Hasbara. Most of the arguments currently used to whitewash the ongoing Israeli ethnic cleansing could be used to defend Hamas’ terror

I believe Hamas said in their updated Charter of 2017 that their aim was to « liberate » every « settlement »… According to their updated charter they consider every Israeli village/city outside the initial UN partition Plan to be an active war zone (so the immediate vicinity of Gaza definitely falls under that definition)…


And if we are honest we gotta know that in truth they actually don’t believe in this charter. More likely the old one from 88 where they used to say all of « Palestine » (including Israel) must be « liberated from the Jews»…
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Why would anyone with their security at stake trust Hamas? You can condemn the Israeli government without believing that updated charters from Hamas is anything other than a smokescreen. After what just happened no Israeli is going to give them the benefit of doubt.
 
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Pintu said:
This is ridiculous Hasbara. Most of the arguments currently used to whitewash the ongoing Israeli ethnic cleansing could be used to defend Hamas’ terror

I believe Hamas said in their updated Charter of 2017 that their aim was to « liberate » every « settlement »… According to their updated charter they consider every Israeli village/city outside the initial UN partition Plan to be an active war zone (so the immediate vicinity of Gaza definitely falls under that definition)…


And if we are honest we gotta know that in truth they actually don’t believe in this charter. More likely the old one from 88 where they used to say all of « Palestine » (including Israel) must be « liberated from the Jews»…
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That says it all really. Hamas consider leftist agrarian Israelis at Kibutzs as armed combatants and eligible for murder.
 
Abizzz said:
This has somehow become a place where murdering 1000 + civilians in cold blood is fine but trying to find the murderers is not. 90% in here aren't worth engaging to be honest.
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Disingenuous and Shameless post. Everyone criticised Hamas and acknowledges the loss of lives of civilians. Would you also acknowledge the loss of life of more than 6000 Palestine civilians till date in Gaza and WB by Israeli forces?
 
Simbo said:
Its the follow up bombs / shells they need to be worried about. That's a smoke shell, could be WP I dunno, but its used as a warning or marker.
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As you say it's most likely a smoke shell used to mark a target for an airstrike.
But even if it's "only" a WP based smoke shell which it looks like it is, using it in a densly populated area like this could still be deemed as a war crime.
 
kaku06 said:
Disingenuous and Shameless post. Everyone criticised Hamas and acknowledges the loss of lives of civilians. Would you also acknowledge the loss of life of more than 6000 Palestine civilians till date in Gaza and WB by Israeli forces?
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I have no way of knowing how many innocent Palestinians have died. All I do know is that however many it is, it is too many. Every single one is one too many. However I'm also certain that the people claiming to act in the defence of Gazan civilians care even less about them than the people killing them. They have already indoctrinated those very people into actually believing dying for the cause is noble. They do not hide any of this.
 
JPRouve said:


I get that it's a bit old but this statement was about the entire palestinian nation and specifically about civilians. I don't really understand how anyone can deny things that Israeli officials have clearly stated. They are not focusing on Hamas and they consider civilians as military targets. And in the West Banks where Hamas isn't really a thing, they are killing palestinians with the help of settlers.
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By the same logic all the Jewish Israelis are guilty of war crimes just like their leaders.
 
Gehrman said:
Why would anyone with their security at stake trust Hamas? You can condemn the Israeli government without believing that updated charters from Hamas is anything other than a smokescreen.
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How the post you quoted above is Abizz’s?. It’s Pintu’s. No? Why is it showing Abizz?
 
JPRouve said:


I get that it's a bit old but this statement was about the entire palestinian nation and specifically about civilians. I don't really understand how anyone can deny things that Israeli officials have clearly stated. They are not focusing on Hamas and they consider civilians as military targets. And in the West Banks where Hamas isn't really a thing, they are killing palestinians with the help of settlers.
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I’m not sure they consider them as targets as such, but they certainly don’t seem to give a shit whether the bombs kill civilians.

its also not correct to say Palestinians knew about the attack. Unfortunately I have a friend in Gaza and first he knew about it was images of the attack on Israel and hostages being brought back.
 
the hea said:
As you say it's most likely a smoke shell used to mark a target for an airstrike.
But even if it's "only" a WP based smoke shell which it looks like it is, using it in a densly populated area like this could still be deemed as a war crime.
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I don't think Israel has signed up to the treaty that outlaw's it, like many other countries, so it wouldn't apply to them if we're talking international laws. Still criminal to the eyes of the world if they are using that on civilians of course, but then so is a 500lb bomb.
 
Raoul said:
That says it all really. Hamas consider leftist agrarian Israelis at Kibutzs as armed combatants and eligible for murder.
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And that's why Netanyahu wanted them in power. Without Hamas, he wouldn't have most of the West clapping while he prepares ethnic cleansing...

 
Abizzz said:
I have no way of knowing how many innocent Palestinians have died. All I do know is that however many it is, it is too many. Every single one is one too many. However I'm also certain that the people claiming to act in the defence of Gazan civilians care even less about them than the people killing them. They have already indoctrinated those very people into actually believing dying for the cause is noble. They do not hide any of this.
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That will be a relief to all the dead.
Ilsington your own logic...
Also the Jewish settlers, terrorising the west Bank, using their notions of Jewish supremacy to pillage Palestinian villages. They don't hide their motivations, or their gratefulness to the support they receive from the Israeli leadership and the wider Jewish community.
 
fergieisold said:
I’m not sure they consider them as targets as such, but they certainly don’t seem to give a shit whether the bombs kill civilians.

its also not correct to say Palestinians knew about the attack. Unfortunately I have a friend in Gaza and first he knew about it was images of the attack on Israel and hostages being brought back.
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They consider them as target, in a statement that is specifically about the palestinian nation and specifically civilians, he ends the statement with, "we will break their back bones." Breaking their back bone is the desired outcome.

Seriously why and how can anyone try to defend or hide something that Israel's leaders doesn't want to hide and doesn't hide, it makes no sense?
 
Pintu said:
And that's why Netanyahu wanted them in power. Without Hamas, he wouldn't have most of the West clapping while he prepares ethnic cleansing...

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It wouldn't matter if Netanyahu wanted them in power or not years ago. What they did last weekend was wrong and no sane Israeli politician would tolerate it without seeking to remove them once and for all.
 
Simbo said:
I don't think Israel has signed up to the treaty that outlaw's it, like many other countries, so it wouldn't apply to them if we're talking international laws. Still criminal to the eyes of the world if they are using that on civilians of course, but then so is a 500lb bomb.
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Pretending Palestinians outside of those who planned the attack knew about it is laughable... Israel has some of the most competent intelligence agencies in the world. If anyone outside the perpetrators knew, it is highly likely some of their assets in Gaza would have gotten that information quickly enough... and the immense failures at the border surveillance would have been avoided.
 
JPRouve said:
They consider them as target, in a statement that is specifically about the palestinian nation and specifically civilians, he ends the statement with, "we will break their back bones." Breaking their back bone is the desired outcome.

Seriously why and how can anyone try to defend or hide something that Israel's leaders doesn't want to hide and doesn't hide, it makes no sense?
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You got the source I’ve not seen that bit - only the statement about them being aware…which they clearly were not.
 
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