Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Spain position is even clearer and better than Macron.




“Spain is a lover of peace. That is why we condemn, emphatically and without any ambiguity, the terrorist attack by Hamas in Israel and the deaths of Israelis.

We demand the urgent release of the hostages and with the same forcefulness we defend that Israel has the right to defend itself.

But always within international humanitarian law, which does not endorse the evacuation of Palestinians from Gaza.

We proclaim that this conflict that has generated so much suffering will only be resolved when the two states, Israel and Palestine, are recognized, so that they can coexist in peace as the UN and the Cortes Generales say.”
 
It’s truly grotesque what’s been happening to the Palestinians over the last few years. It’s been bubbling over to this for a while.

The stories and photos over there - utter chaos.
 
17 Van der Gouw said:
So Israel suffers an horrific terrorist attack, with thousands of civilians killed and dozens kidnapped, and Germany is 'embarrassing itself' by claiming that Israel the right to self defence?

And no, the 'narrative' from western leadership is not changing. France has urged caution, Norway said the exact same - that they have the right to self defence, but condemned the order to evacuate a million in Gaza. The western world will, by and large continue to support Israel.
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Might as well mention that only one side of civilians matter. Those 700 dead children were a threat to Israel too. That’s why hospitals are being bombed now to kill the infants. Right? Dumb post.
 
And this was Sweden’s position yesterday:



We have a government, endorsed by the far right (SD, which is affiliated with Likud), and in which 2 parties consider Israel their main FP priority… I don’t think we’ve ever a had a more anti-Palestinian gouvernement in our entire history, and still they’re clearly distancing themselves from Von der Leyen’s weird positions.
 
17 Van der Gouw said:
So Israel suffers an horrific terrorist attack, with thousands of civilians killed and dozens kidnapped, and Germany is 'embarrassing itself' by claiming that Israel the right to self defence?

And no, the 'narrative' from western leadership is not changing. France has urged caution, Norway said the exact same - that they have the right to self defence, but condemned the order to evacuate a million in Gaza. The western world will, by and large continue to support Israel.
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Tell that to this little orphan girl and boy that it was self defense against their parents.

 
NicolaSacco said:
Yep, I thought that might be the case. It's a lose-lose scenario for Egypt. I wonder what would happen though, if things got so crowded and desperate at the border that it ended up being rushed by thousands of Palestinians. I can't see Sisi wanting to be the guy who used the army to keep Palestinians effectively imprisoned, it would be awful optics.
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It seems that actually there is growing openness among Egypt's decision makers to accept Palestinian refugees from Gaza. Really interesting article here about the talks that are happening, including details on numbers and fears and financial rewards.
 
Mogget said:
Yes, because bombing hospitals and killing twice as many civilians isn't self defence but revenge. So it's pretty embarrassing for Germany to refer to it as self defence.
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I'm going to say something inhuman or purely realpolitik but as a matter of strategy it is neither self defence nor revenge but really what is the right and proportionate amount of force to achieve whatever the political objective is.

The elephant in the room being what those goals are, because it is probably somewhat confused and nebulous for Israel citizens and perhaps even for the leadership. I don't think you can look back at the whole corpus of Israel military actions within territories they either claim or administer -at least for the 20 to 30 years- and say the overarching plan is to find a satisfactory to all parties modus vivendi (whatever it is, one state, two states...) with Palestinians. They might delude themselves the goal is to "destroy Hamas" but if it really was the plan they've been bungling it for a while.

The most charitable reading is that Israel has devolved in a purely reactionary stance security wise but I'm not sure it accounts for the very proactive support of settlers. The less charitable one is that the ideal future is really to ethnic cleanse Palestinians, slowly force them out and reduce redoubts to something insignificant. They may not verbalise it so truthfully, they might not realize it even, but that's definitely where actions trend to, at least to me.

It's probably true that the IDF pays at least some lip service to the idea of operating within some of the international rules of war and might not, in all cases, target civilians just for the sake of it (though there's many cases, IIRC, of the Israeli military behaving inappropriately, to use an euphemism)... But when you keep doing it those sort of operations again and again with large "collateral damage" every time, is it really a bug or has it been made a feature ? Is it really strategy or just oppression ?

That's a debate you can have about the strategic bombing campaigns against the Third Reich or Imperial Japan which are generally accepted in the West as necessary evils or unfortunate byproducts of technological limits, but those only lasted a few years in a state of total war.

Western militaries in Afghanistan (and most post 90 conflicts) also tried to mostly, on the surface, do "surgical strikes", to target belligerents through intelligence, pay damages to farmers suffering damage (there was a Danish documentary about their contingent here, that was part of the policy)... but when so many drone or targeted (air)strikes end up killing people at weddings or strafing hospitals, etc because of how convenient it is to sign them off liberally when is the point you can't hide anymore behind a "on paper it's as painless to civilians it can be but execution is lacking" excuse ?
 
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Trudeau joining the list of those who call for for “international law, including humanitarian and human rights law, to be respected.”

This is too many NATO-countries now. I am becoming hopeful now that this humanitarian language and the (even though minimal) consideration of Palestinian civilians (yet to be heard from Germany & the UK) has been approved by the Biden administration.
 
17 Van der Gouw said:
Can you find a source that Israel has bombed a hospital during its current operations?

Israel's military at least attempts to take measures to spare civilian life, like pre-warning locals when an area is about to be hit and roof-knocking before airstrikes.

Hamas on the other hand, specifically targets civilians; their modus operandi is not dissimilar to the playbook of ISIS.
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It's like shooting fish in a barrel with a shotgun and warning them to flee before shooting

There are livestreams of Gaza as we speak. But hey... Where's the proof? 6000 bombs says hello
 
ScholesyTheWise said:
I googled him because the video looked surreal. Apparently that's a 95 (!!!) years' old person who joined the Israeli reserves.
He has a history of supporting the right-leaning side of the map in Palestina even before the Jewish state was founded.

What they're going to do with someone that old I don't know. Maybe he's there to lecture... heh.
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It’s the rhetoric dude. Hateful rhetoric.
 
Haaretz editorial demonstrates the existence of at least some dissenting voices within Israeli society. No real reference to the killing of Palestinians though:

An Israel-Hamas Prisoner Exchange Now

excerpt said:
Israel’s most urgent task is to bring back the Israelis held by Hamas and Islamic Jihad in the Gaza Strip. This means one thing only – moving forward immediately on a prisoner exchange, including a willingness to free Palestinians jailed in Israel.

But the lethal counterattack Israel launched against Hamas in Gaza, coupled with what is being said by members of the government, indicate that bringing back those Israelis doesn’t top its priorities. Even worse, the government seems to have decided to apply the so-called Hannibal Protocol, which allows risking abductees’ lives, to the 150 captive and missing Israelis. In an interview with CNN, Israeli Ambassador to the UN Gilad Erdan said that concern for the hostages’ situation is “not going to stop us, prevent us from doing what we need to do in order to secure the future of Israel.” Yossi Shelley, director general of the Prime Minister’s Office, similarly said that “the hostages are a fact. And the attacks are a fact. That’s the decision.” And Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich advocated at the cabinet meeting for Israel to “strike Hamas brutally, and not take the issue of the captives into account too much.”

The government and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu must not try to save Israel’s battered national honor, and that of the army, on the backs of helpless babies, children, teenagers, elderly people and parents, or on the backs of their families here in Israel, who are going crazy with worry and pain. No government, and certainly not the most reckless government in Israel’s history, has the right to traffic in the lives of innocent civilians and decide to sacrifice them on the altar of national pride. We must pay whatever is demanded, with no delays, no fancy maneuvering and no tricks.

[Piece continues]....
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Kaos said:
I take it you don't really understand the conflict in Yemen then? The Iranians don't back 'Yemen', they back the Houthi rebels who essentially overthrew the government and have been in a stalemate conflict with Saudi Arabia. The only losers of that conflict are the Yemeni people who've suffered immeasurably because of Saudi bombings. They also have completely infiltrated Iraqi politics, and hold considerable power there because of their proxy militias, which was a considerable failure on behalf of the US government and their allies. Then of course there's Hezbollah who are probably the most mobilised and powerful armed faction in Lebanon. And then of course there's their biggest Arab ally - Syria, who despite the combined efforts of the West, Turkey and the Gulf Arab States, have failed to topple the pro-Iranian regime there.

So I'd say you're completely off the mark with your suggestion that they always back a losing horse.
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I understand the conflict and the houthis for good or for bad are the government for the last years and they being fecked. Syria was fecked and palestinians are fecked. Yes, they exist but they are not the countries that thrives in middle east abd among them, the palestinians are the ones that they have it worse....such a gold mine
 
Pintu said:


Trudeau joining the list of those who call for for “international law, including humanitarian and human rights law, to be respected.”

This is too many NATO-countries now. I am becoming hopeful now that this humanitarian language and the (even though minimal) consideration of Palestinian civilians (yet to be heard from Germany & the UK) has been approved by the Biden administration.
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It's meaningless drivel. Not one of them would actually call for Israel to face any sanctions.
 
marktan said:
That is the Israeli mentality but it's a flawed one. They've tried the we hit you back 10x harder response. Pretty much every battle ever fought between Israel and Gaza, there are 10x more Palestinian deaths. 2014 was something like 150 Israeli to 1800 Palestinian deaths, cast lead in 2009 was 20 to 1500. It does nothing. If anything that's the family members and friends of another 1800 people that have become ready to die for the cause.

As to your second point, the only way Israel removes the threat of Hamas by force is by removing every single Palestinian in Gaza. It's impossible.

The reason I say it's flawed logic is because it is. The Israelis think hitting harder and harder and taking more terrority is the way to do things, but it's not. It's just kicking the can down the road. The anger, the displacement, the deaths - it will all linger long in memory.
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To be honest they're at the point of no return long time ago.

A movement to pacifism will be the same can down the road. The Gazans might welcome it at start but once they're strong it'll be a different demand.

And no matter what there will always be a few nutters who wants nothing but total annihilation of the other on both sides.

It's a quagmire of mess
 
frostbite said:
Does anyone know of any reliable poll about what Palestinians who immigrated to Western Europe believe about Hamas? What percentage of them support Hamas?
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No answer to my question.

Perhaps nobody knows. Or no reliable polls exist.

Here is a brave woman who openly says that Hamas are terrorists.




 
@Kaos and others

Don't see a lot of tweets from people in Gaza, or recent images either, for quite a few hours. Has the electricity/internet gone totally? Or the algorithm just wants to push discourse, protests, etc rather than reporting...
(and yes i know it's night)
 
berbatrick said:
@Kaos and others

Don't see a lot of tweets from people in Gaza, or recent images either, for quite a few hours. Has the electricity/internet gone totally? Or the algorithm just wants to push discourse, protests, etc rather than reporting...
(and yes i know it's night)
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The Israelis tweeted yesterday that the internet would be turned off.
 
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-water-4cc305b209437eec7235e975cf4c47d6

The U.N. Palestinian refugee agency called the water crisis a “matter of life or death.”

If fuel and water don’t arrive soon, the agency’s commissioner general Philippe Lazzarini said, “people will start dying of severe dehydration.”

It took 35-year-old Noor Swirki two hours on Saturday to find a box of six bottles she will try to stretch throughout the coming days. She took her first shower in a week Saturday, using a cup of polluted tap water and splashing it over her husband and two children before rubbing the remaining moisture on her skin.

“We are here without anything, even the most basic thing,” she said, shouting over the persistent noise of crying children in the U.N. shelter in southern Khan Younis, where she sought refuge after an airstrike demolished her Gaza City apartment. “We’re worried about our safety in the bombing and now there’s this other issue of survival.”

She and six other Palestinians interviewed across Gaza said they drink no more than half a liter of water a day. They said they urinate once a day or every other day.

...

In sharing that report (which was written 12 hours ago), I realize, having learnt from that this thread, that we must be vigilant of the possibility of journalists and the UN being fooled by AI and crisis actors.
 
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Belisarius said:
Does anyone else think that Hamas must have something else planned?

If not, I don't really understand the thinking behind their original attack.
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Prevent normalisation of relations between Israel and Saudi (which was on the way) which would have been disasterous for them. That and blind hatred of Israel and Jews of course.
 
marktan said:
That is the Israeli mentality but it's a flawed one. They've tried the we hit you back 10x harder response. Pretty much every battle ever fought between Israel and Gaza, there are 10x more Palestinian deaths. 2014 was something like 150 Israeli to 1800 Palestinian deaths, cast lead in 2009 was 20 to 1500. It does nothing. If anything that's the family members and friends of another 1800 people that have become ready to die for the cause.

As to your second point, the only way Israel removes the threat of Hamas by force is by removing every single Palestinian in Gaza. It's impossible.

The reason I say it's flawed logic is because it is. The Israelis think hitting harder and harder and taking more terrority is the way to do things, but it's not. It's just kicking the can down the road. The anger, the displacement, the deaths - it will all linger long in memory.
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I woke up this morning with some faint hope that some kind of sense would prevailed and a cease fire would have been agreed.
But not the case unfortunately.
The only thing that is certain is that more and more killing of civilians, mainly in Gaza is going to happen.

This whole situation is a total disaster for ordinary people caught up in this war.

So what is the rest of the world doing about it.
And what is going to be the outcome.
There is no overall strategy.
Just short term thinking.
In 2023, human beings are still fighting old fashioned wars. It is just ridiculous and depressing.
 
17 Van der Gouw said:
Can you find a source that Israel has bombed a hospital during its current operations?

Israel's military at least attempts to take measures to spare civilian life, like pre-warning locals when an area is about to be hit and roof-knocking before airstrikes.

Hamas on the other hand, specifically targets civilians; their modus operandi is not dissimilar to the playbook of ISIS.
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Maybe you should go have a look at twitter and watch the videos of people trying to get children out from under rubble when their childrens hospital was bombed with white phosphorus.

People exposed to white phosphorus can suffer severe and sometimes deadly bone-deep burns. It can cause organs to shut down, and burns on just 10% of the body can be fatal, HRW said. Those who don't die can suffer from scarring, mobility issues and psychological trauma.

Isarel dropped this on a childrens hospital.

"...The health ministry of the Gaza Strip has announced the evacuation of a children’s hospital in the enclave’s east after it was shelled with white phosphorus munitions, the ministry said.

"..Evacuation of Al-Durra Children’s Hospital in the east of the Gaza Strip after it was pounded with white phosphorus munitions," the health ministry said..."

"..Earlier, Human Rights Watch (HRW), an international rights organization, accused Israel of using white phosphorus munitions during its military operations in Lebanon and the Gaza Strip. The report based on videos and eyewitness statements said: "Human Rights Watch verified videos taken in Lebanon and Gaza on October 10 and 11, 2023, respectively, showing multiple airbursts of artillery-fired white phosphorus over the Gaza City port and two rural locations along the Israel-Lebanon border.."

As for 'attempting to spare civilian life' have a read of what amnesty international wrote on thier own website.

"..Amnesty International is currently investigating Israeli air strikes in Gaza, including the air strike on a residential building in al-Zeitoun neighbourhood, which killed 15 members of the same family, including seven children – five siblings and their two cousins, in addition to their elderly grandparents; the destruction of Burj Palestine, a high-rise building in al-Rimal neighbourhood in Gaza; and the bombing of a crowded market street in Jabalia refugee camp, which killed at least 69 people, including at least 15 Children..."

Lastly ask yourself why does Israel need to bomb Al-Awdeh hospital in gaza? What does it benefit them to kill babies in incubators, elderly people on dialysis machines? Sick and injured people in general?

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231014-gaza-israel-warns-al-awdeh-hospital-will-be-bombed/
 
17 Van der Gouw said:
Can you find a source that Israel has bombed a hospital during its current operations?

Israel's military at least attempts to take measures to spare civilian life, like pre-warning locals when an area is about to be hit and roof-knocking before airstrikes.

Hamas on the other hand, specifically targets civilians; their modus operandi is not dissimilar to the playbook of ISIS.
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:lol:

Have you seen the latest videos of the decapitated Palestinian babies from the missile attacks? I looked for one second and I wish i didn't.

Untill yesterday 700 child lost their live in revenge Israeli attacks.

Tacking measures :lol:

Embarrassing post.
 
17 Van der Gouw said:
Can you find a source that Israel has bombed a hospital during its current operations?

Israel's military at least attempts to take measures to spare civilian life, like pre-warning locals when an area is about to be hit and roof-knocking before airstrikes.

Hamas on the other hand, specifically targets civilians; their modus operandi is not dissimilar to the playbook of ISIS.
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Laughable. It's purely for show, so that people are fooled into thinking that Israel is somehow more humane.

Israel is currently in the process of inflicting as much terror and misery (if not more), as Hamas did with their attack.
 
Sky1981 said:
To be honest they're at the point of no return long time ago.

A movement to pacifism will be the same can down the road. The Gazans might welcome it at start but once they're strong it'll be a different demand.

And no matter what there will always be a few nutters who wants nothing but total annihilation of the other on both sides.

It's a quagmire of mess
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The problem is that are so many that feel this way and many these people sit in positions of power on both sides.
 
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