Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Is there anything to suggest that Palestinians being peaceful will achieve anything for them? Yassar Arafat was relatively peaceful, and in return, he got feck all, both from Israel and from the world. In other words, the world do not give a single feck for Palestinians. A month from now when the number of Palestinians civils who got killed would be ten times higher than that of Israelis, it will be business as usual for the world. The Arabs also do not give a feck about Palestinians. And Iran of course does not, they just like to damage Israel because of the Ayatollahs sick ideology.

I do not see how this cycle of violence ends except in ethnic cleaning. You have two sides who hate each other guts and who love to do unthinkable things to each other. No side will unilaterally break the cycle of violence and things are gonna continue getting worse.

As sad as it might sound, I think the ultimate solution will be when Israel ethnically cleans the entire region of Palestinians. Anything is better than living in that shithole where Israel takes more land from Palestinians and kills and maims people every day, while the Palestinians whenever they can do as much terror as humanly possible in Israelis.
There needs to be a truth and reconciliation process like post-apartheid SA.

In reality, nothing will change until one group no longer exists in the region/is displaced somewhere else.
 
There's some dark humor/irony in using the words "ultimate solution" in the context of Israel.
But it's the truth. There's only two viable options, either a single state with all people having a franchise in its democratic process or Israel completely wipes out every single Palestinian and for full safety they kill every overseas descendant so the pallys don't make their own aliyah in a 1000 years time.
 
If only the majority of Palestine supporters (this goes also for some in this thread) would understand that logic, that Stone Age barbarians don't help their cause, but make it worse, they'd have a much bigger chance and voice to be heard worldwide. Israel would be under much more pressure over the years if the public opinion about Palestine was a suffering people. But as long as they're proud of them or see them as a necessary evil against Israel, their misery will only increase and not one western state will think about their situation. The public picture is the most important part and for some reason, the public picture isn't a suffering people but barbarians who parade naked and desecrated bodies in the streets while chanting god is great.

You think if Ukraine right now would sneak into Russia and start murdering civilians like Russia did to them, that the western world would continue its support as they do now? They know better (aside from the fact that they don't hold civilians responsible in the first place and therefore don't even think of such barbarism).
Aren't the west turning a blind eye to literal nazi infested battalions in Ukraine?
 
Yes I see, you do the exact same thing thousands of others do right now. Connecting barbarism with Israel's behaviour over the last decades. First of all, only because I don't talk about it, it doesn't mean I fail to see it. Talking about it after the massacre on innocent humans is whataboutism, it makes what happened less disgusting. The victims don’t deserve that, it's the least we can do for them now.
Second of all is the most important question in my opinion. How does that connection help Palestinian people and their struggle? It makes it worse, because to the majority of the western world it looks like an apology for what happened two days ago. And in the civilized world, there can never, ever be understanding for such Stone Age barbarism. It would spit on all our ancestors who stopped behaving like eye for an eye barbarians, who started to create laws and to learn to live together.
And last but not least, there are people in this world who simply like to murder other people. They will always find excuses like religion, or some part of history where they were oppressed. It calms their conscience after a day of murdering, it allows them to hug their children, it allows them to fall asleep and not lay awake whole night seeing the terrified faces of the murdered. "They had it coming, I'm doing nothing they didn't do". I'm maybe strange in that way, but I don't feel supporting savages in trying to find a reason.
Curiously it's a tradition to spit on certain religious groups in Israel according to a recently released viral video.

Alas, every thing in your post can actually be charged at Israel, the IDF, and the supporters of them. Unfortunately, the self-awareness to realise this seems lost.
 
There needs to be a truth and reconciliation process like post-apartheid SA.

In reality, nothing will change until one group no longer exists in the region/is displaced somewhere else.
That would be the best thing, but as I said before, I think that died with Rabin. Since then, Israel has elected right and more right politicians, while Palestinians have been radicalized more and show less constrains to do terror.
 
There needs to be a truth and reconciliation process like post-apartheid SA.

In reality, nothing will change until one group no longer exists in the region/is displaced somewhere else.
The only way they can make any progress is if the Western powers boycott and sanction Israel until they acquiesce. There's more chance of pigs flying than that happening however. Part of the reason why Israel behave the way they behave is because of the Western (re: US) backing.
 
But it's the truth. There's only two viable options, either a single state with all people having a franchise in its democratic process or Israel completely wipes out every single Palestinian and for full safety they kill every overseas descendant so the pallys don't make their own aliyah in a 1000 years time.

They will likely annex all of Palestine and demote Arabs to second class citizens until such a time when Jews outnumber Arabs - or just flat out make being Jewish a prerequisite for full rights as a citizen.

Or when they finally do have complete territorial control they might be under considerably more international pressure to treat Arab citizens as equals than they are now. As of now they can hide behind the need to protect the country from terrorists, and that they technically aren't responsible for Gaza, they can't do that if they have full territorial control.
 
You think if Ukraine right now would sneak into Russia and start murdering civilians like Russia did to them, that the western world would continue its support as they do now? They know better (aside from the fact that they don't hold civilians responsible in the first place and therefore don't even think of such barbarism).
Do you think Hamas would commit such acts of barbarism if the west were giving them tanks and jets so they could actually attempt to fight Israel as equals?
 
They will likely annex all of Palestine and demote Arabs to second class citizens until such a time when Jews outnumber Arabs - or just flat out make being Jewish a prerequisite for full rights as a citizen.

Or when they finally do have complete territorial control they might be under considerably more international pressure to treat Arab citizens as equals than they are now. As of now they can hide behind the need to protect the country from terrorists, and that they technically aren't responsible for Gaza, they can't do that if they have full territorial control.
They cannot unless most Arabs leave the country. Even a 70-30% population in favor of Israelis is dangerous for Israel, cause in two generations the demographics might change and if they get outnumbered, well, how to say it nicely, there won't then be Israelis left there.
 
That U.S.-Saudi-Israel deal also would have been a diplomatic earthquake that would have most likely required Netanyahu to jettison the most extreme members of his cabinet in return for forging an alliance between the Jewish state and the Sunni-led states of the Persian Gulf against Iran. Altogether, it would have been one of the biggest shifts in the tectonic plates of the region in 75 years. In the wake of this Hamas attack, that deal is now in the deep freeze, as the Saudis have had to link themselves more closely than ever with Palestinian interests, not just their own.

Can anything good come from this terrible new Hamas-Israel war? It’s far too early to say, but another longtime Israeli friend and analyst I trust, Prof. Victor Friedman (no relation), who teaches behavioral science at Jezreel Valley College in central Israel and knows the Israeli Arab community very well, wrote me late today, saying: “This horrid situation is still an opportunity, just like the Yom Kippur War turned out to be an opportunity that ended with a peace agreement with Egypt. The only real victory will be if what happens next — probably Israel going into Gaza — creates conditions for a real, stable settlement with the Palestinians.” In light of what the Palestinians did today, he said, they can “claim some ‘victory,’ no matter what happens next.” The point is, he added, ‘Someone needs to think beyond more force and more force.”


If you read Friedman's opinion on the NYT, long-standing, in the past, very hawkish pro-Israeli commentator, but less so of late, it is the second paragraph that is worth reading.

If Israel goes into Gaza very hard, then the liklihood of Hezbollah joining from the north rises exponentially. The point is that the situation doesn't change regardless. Israel cannot hold Gaza nor push Hezbollah out of the northern territories and Hamas/etc cannot defeat Israel. Cooler heads would see it as an opportunity to strike a some form of peace deal in the aftermath. Without two-state solution, we're back here again in a year's time. And then again.
 
That would be the best thing, but as I said before, I think that died with Rabin. Since then, Israel has elected right and more right politicians, while Palestinians have been radicalized more and show less constrains to do terror.
I agree, you have to just make a decision to let the past die. No more score settling. Just move on.
 
a single state
Can't work. It, Israel, was founded as the Jewish state. Demographics mean one-state, with equality, means Jewish minority and thus not a Jewish state. That's a much harder sell than winding back settlements (as hard as that is, it's at least clear where international law stands) in the WB and creating a contiguous Palestinian state via high-speed rail/road networks. It is two-state solution or varying degrees of warfare on a perpetual basis (bearing in mind the number of Palestinians who live within Israel proper).
 
They cannot unless most Arabs leave the country. Even a 70-30% population in favor of Israelis is dangerous for Israel, cause in two generations the demographics might change and if they get outnumbered, well, how to say it nicely, there won't then be Israelis left there.

Which is why the two state solution has been dominant for so long, despite everyone involved being fully aware of its challenges that basically makes it impossible.
 
I'm a bit reluctant to jump in on this because I am aware of how little I really know, but surely intentions matter here also, it's not just about treatment but goals. Hamas want to wipe jews out and would if they could, and they ally with states who want the same. Israel doesn't want to wipe out Palestinians and you could interpret Israeli actions as containment. (I am not excusing the often brutal and stupidly self defeating nature of that containment at all, by the way). But it seems that even if Israel stopped tomorrow, and somehow everything got better for the Palestinians, there would still be people, organisations and states who wanted to wipe Jews out and would do their best to make that happen.
 
Which is why the two state solution has been dominant for so long, despite everyone involved being fully aware of its challenges.
It's also why this was sadly predicted. The general cutting away at the WB over the past two decades, undermining the two state solution, purposefully, with complete Western ignorance/support/toothlessness, is the background against which the Palestinians calculate their future. Supporting "Israel's right to defend itself" and never doing anything of substance about the illegal settlement campaigns into the WB, for such a long time, even supporting them in some cases, leads us here. It is anti-Israeli security (especially over the past five years or so) and obviously anti-Palestinian security, too.
 
I'm a bit reluctant to jump in on this because I am aware of how little I really know, but surely intentions matter here also, it's not just about treatment but goals. Hamas want to wipe jews out and would if they could, and they ally with states who want the same. Israel doesn't want to wipe out Palestinians and you could interpret Israeli actions as containment. (I am not excusing the often brutal and stupidly self defeating nature of that containment at all, by the way). But it seems that even if Israel stopped tomorrow, and somehow everything got better for the Palestinians, there would still be people, organisations and states who wanted to wipe Jews out and would do their best to make that happen.
I mean, that's just nonsense. If you said that in the Arab world, or beyond Western prisms, you'd be laughed at. Hamas, whatever grain of terrorist/freedom fighter you want to call them, gains its support because of this and Fatah's inability to govern in the WB or Gaza which has been a purposed Israeli campaign to cut into areas entirely settled (boundaries) under international law:

imemc-settlement.jpg



That's a rough approximation, and no one wants to go through the history, but the Palestinians are acutely conscious of it (as are the Arabs) and it only runs to 2005 (it is worse now in terms of settlements in the WB). Only one "state" (post-47, despite tribal claims or whatever) has been wiped off the map or come close to being so and it isn't Israel. So a one-state solution is impossible, because Israel self-defines as a Jewish state, and demographics don't allow for it, meaning the only alternative is that which the Palestinians are being entirely denied for 20+ years straight (may as well limit it to 2000 onward) with us only ever hearing about "Israel's right to defend itself". In the broader context, of constant settlement, entirely illegal, what does "defend itself" mean? Take all available land? Without actual sanctions, when Israel is breaking law continuously, it is basically a Western justification, tacit, of Israeli colonialism.
 
There is a single battalion (Azov) that is supposedly fascistic, but it's an excuse that Russia made to justify its actions.
Oh right, well Russia used a lot of excuses, Ethnic Russians being killed, the land was there's due to some deal many years ago, Nazi's etc.

Just because they make an excuse doesn't mean that you can ignore if some of the situation is true I suppose.

Edit;

This passage from the Reuters article in 2018:

According to Freedom House’s Ukraine project director Matthew Schaaf, “numerous organized radical right-wing groups exist in Ukraine, and while the volunteer battalions may have been officially integrated into state structures, some of them have since spun off political and non-profit structures to implement their vision.” Schaaf noted that “an increase in patriotic discourse supporting Ukraine in its conflict with Russia has coincided with an apparent increase in both public hate speech, sometimes by public officials and magnified by the media, as well as violence towards vulnerable groups such as the LGBT community,” an observation that is supported by a recent Council of Europe study.

In recent months, Ukraine has experienced a wave of unchecked vigilantism. Institute Respublica, a local pro-democracy NGO, reported that activists are frequently harassed by vigilantes when holding legal meetings or rallies related to politically-controversial positions, such as the promotion of LGBT rights or opposition to the war. Azov and other militias have attacked anti-fascist demonstrations, city council meetings, media outlets, art exhibitions, foreign students and Roma. Progressive activists describe a new climate of fear that they say has been intensifying ever since last year's near-fatal stabbing of anti-war activist Stas Serhiyenko, which is believed to have been perpetrated by an extremist group named C14 (the name refers to a 14-word slogan popular among white supremacists). Brutal attacks this month on International Women’s Day marches in several Ukrainian cities prompted an unusually forceful statement from Amnesty International, which warned that "the Ukrainian state is rapidly losing its monopoly on violence.”
 
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I'm a bit reluctant to jump in on this because I am aware of how little I really know, but surely intentions matter here also, it's not just about treatment but goals. Hamas want to wipe jews out and would if they could, and they ally with states who want the same. Israel doesn't want to wipe out Palestinians and you could interpret Israeli actions as containment. (I am not excusing the often brutal and stupidly self defeating nature of that containment at all, by the way). But it seems that even if Israel stopped tomorrow, and somehow everything got better for the Palestinians, there would still be people, organisations and states who wanted to wipe Jews out and would do their best to make that happen.
If the life of Palestinians improve, they will do less acts of terror. It is why the West Bank Palestinians are nowhere as radicalized as Gaza Palestinians. They have slightly better lives. And it is why Israeli Arabs are essentially not radicalized at all, cause they have decent lives.

To go to most brutal forms of humanity, where essentially you can kill kids and women (not via drones or air strikes where you do not see them), you behead people, to not care about your life or your children’s life (which is what Hamas did two days ago), you need to pass a very high threshold. And you do that, only where everything was taken away from you, where there is not a single drop of hope left.

At the contrary, I think if they got better lives they would have become less terrorists. Israel decided that the way forward is to stripe humanity from Palestinians and to treat them somewhere from third-class citizens (West Bank) to animals (Gaza). Because the Israel became so strong military (especially after the Iron Dome), that kinda worked for them. Until, it did not work anymore.

And now they need to make another hard decision: do a Holocaust in Gaza, continue the status quo of continuing the cycle of violence (that in the future might bring similar attacks), or rethink their policy of the last 20 years. My bet is that it will be the second, and they will give a massive punishment to Gaza, but short of genocide, while increasing their security for this to not happen again.

And it will work for a while. Until it won’t.
 
I mean, that's just nonsense. If you said that in the Arab world, or beyond Western prisms, you'd be laughed at. Hamas, whatever grain of terrorist/freedom fighter you want to call them, gains its support because of this and Fatah's inability to govern in the WB or Gaza which has been a purposed Israeli campaign to cut into areas entirely settled (boundaries) under international law:

imemc-settlement.jpg



That's a rough approximation, and no one wants to go through the history, but the Palestinians are acutely conscious of it (as are the Arabs) and it only runs to 2005 (it is worse now in terms of settlements in the WB). Only one "state" (post-47, despite tribal claims or whatever) has been wiped off the map or come close to being so and it isn't Israel. So a one-state solution is impossible, because Israel self-defines as a Jewish state, and demographics don't allow for it, meaning the only alternative is that which the Palestinians are being entirely denied for 20+ years straight (may as well limit it to 2000 onward) with us only ever hearing about "Israel's right to defend itself". In the broader context, of constant settlement, entirely illegal, what does "defend itself" mean? Take all available land? Without actual sanctions, when Israel is breaking law continuously, it is basically a Western justification, tacit, of Israeli colonialism.
Decent post.

Netanyahu himself prefers Hamas to Fatah. Fatah has been relatively peaceful, recognizes Israel, wants a two state solution. Hamas are terrorist jihadists, want every Jew dead (or out of Israel).

Netanyahu’s policy was strengthening Hamas because everyone hates terrorists. Stronger Hamas means less sympathy for Palestinians, in turn, more land to steal for Israeli settlers and no two-state solution.
 
Fatah has been relatively peaceful, recognizes Israel, wants a two state solution. Hamas are terrorist jihadists, want every Jew dead (or out of Israel).
Exactly, and Fatah is losing ground rapidly because it is seen as "peacefully" allowing all Palestinian land to disappear (which then gives you extremist elements in response which Israel, the regime, much prefers because you just say "terrorist" and no one bats an eyelid). Israel ensures Fatah cannot govern/consolidate in the WB whilst only ever airing grievances against Hamas/IJ/Hezbollah/Iranian proxies/etc., which is the direct corollary of that tactic (support from Fatah to Hamas/IJ primarily).
 
It's also why this was sadly predicted. The general cutting away at the WB over the past two decades, undermining the two state solution, purposefully, with complete Western ignorance/support/toothlessness, is the background against which the Palestinians calculate their future. Supporting "Israel's right to defend itself" and never doing anything of substance about the illegal settlement campaigns into the WB, for such a long time, even supporting them in some cases, leads us here. It is anti-Israeli security (especially over the past five years or so) and obviously anti-Palestinian security, too.
I can't help but think that historically the problem has been unconditional support from the US. If the US had threatened to withdraw support unless Israel ceased expansion and negotiated a viable two-state solution then Israel might have had little choice but to comply, in order to retain US protection. Could still be done, but requires a change in US opinion.
 
I can't help but think that historically the problem has been unconditional support from the US. If the US had threatened to withdraw support unless Israel ceased expansion and negotiated a viable two-state solution then Israel might have had little choice but to comply, in order to retain US protection. Could still be done, but requires a change in US opinion.
They've vetoed, entirely solo, as you say, every potential resolution at the UN security council for decades. So it is a huge problem. The change in US opinion is only going to come from increased Arab League strenght: the Saudi retreat, immediately, post-Hamas attack. The Arabic world, broadly, is more geopolitically important these days to the US than Israel by itself and it sets resolution of this conflict as minimal in terms of complete normalization of ties with Israel. So something has to give.
 
I can't help but think that historically the problem has been unconditional support from the US. If the US had threatened to withdraw support unless Israel ceased expansion and negotiated a viable two-state solution then Israel might have had little choice but to comply, in order to retain US protection. Could still be done, but requires a change in US opinion.
Wasn't a two state solution on the table in 2000 and Arafat rejected it?
 
Oh right, well Russia used a lot of excuses, Ethnic Russians being killed, the land was there's due to some deal many years ago, Nazi's etc.

Just because they make an excuse doesn't mean that you can ignore if some of the situation is true I suppose.

Every country that goes to war or goes anything immoral has their 'reasons' ready.

Russian aggression against Ukraine is a land grab, as you can see by Crimea before etc.

With Israel there is a legitimate history of aggression against them prior to the imposition of the restrictions on the Palestinian people, they have however used that to their advantage over decades, it's a mess and peace is a million miles away
 
Every country that goes to war or goes anything immoral has their 'reasons' ready.

Russian aggression against Ukraine is a land grab, as you can see by Crimea before etc.

With Israel there is a legitimate history of aggression against them prior to the imposition of the restrictions on the Palestinian people, they have however used that to their advantage over decades and peace is a million miles away
That's nonsense. They were given land that's not theirs, and it was given by a country with no authority to give it. Stop making shitty excuses. Even the UN vote in 1947 was a sham - full of brown envelopes and US bullying.
 
I don't know the details of that one. Why did Arafat reject it?
The Mosque. Couldn't accept Israeli ownership of Al Aqsa. Needed some kind of independent greenzone. Wouldn't have led to a peace if he signed it, just a document which said so.

If you read back on that period the Clinton negotiation team laments the fact that they had an overflow of American Jewish negotiators and very few, if zero, Arabic viewpoints (it is these negotiators who are making that point).