Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Raoul said:
Given the events of the past 36 hours, one can't be too cautious. The Israelis will be all tied up with a ground war in Gaza, so the likes of Hezbollah or Assad would have plenty of chances to advance their respective objectives in the north or in the Golan.
Click to expand...

But again, what is the purpose? Are the USA really going to start an actual naval bombardment or Southern Lebanon, even if they do start launching missiles?
 
langster said:
Yes, they did, but so did Israel's current government too. Now they have the excuse they have wanted to go all out 'in defence' after the horrific attacks.

I would like to add that I've seen numerous posts from you, it's very clear what side of the fence you sit, and you often completely ignore any retort to your posts. It almost looks like a hit and run troll job.



That's the thing though, as I said above, Israel aren't surprised. Many citizens won't be but the government certainly won't be either. You have got those who said this was coming and then you have those that engineered it through their handling of the situation. It's a no win situation for the Palestinians as ultimately they will yet again lose out. Unfortunately many with their lives and homes. Sadly many innocent Jews and other people will too.

But what was the answer?






Just look at the one sided losses of life and look at the continued loss of land. It's ethnic cleaning over a sustained period of time. It also doesn't show the stats of daily beatings, false arrests, rapes and persecution of people just trying to go about their daily lives. The restrictions placed upon normal Palestinians is insane and the treatment of them is barbaric.

I'm not defending HAMAS or what they did yesterday as it was vile, inhumane and lots.of innocent people suffered horrifically. But, nobody can be surprised that it happened as what other choice were they left with? Land keeps getting stolen and the disgusting treatment of their people continued on land they call home.

A two state system could only possibly have worked decades ago but not in recent times. The world continues to turn and countries send aid to either or both, but nobody has offered a solution that is acceptable to both parties, and that's because I honestly don't think there is one.

I feel for the people involved and think the horrors have only just started, and this is going to get a lot worse. I can see Israel finally taking much larger areas of land now and ultimately yet again the Palestinians will be made to suffer even more and yet again tens of thousands of people will lose their lives because of this.

I don't have the answers,.I wish I did, but I will say that I was sickened by the attacks yesterday and am sickened to see what's going on today. However, i'm also deeply sickened and saddened at the huge pro Israel and stand with Israel campaign that's being pounced on now. I cannot take anyone seriously who thinks this way. To not have any understanding of why this is happening or having no empathy for the Palestinians is simply beyond ignorant IMHO.
Click to expand...

@arnie_ni the second tweet here should also help you understand the recent history.
 
africanspur said:
But again, what is the purpose? Are the USA really going to start an actual naval bombardment or Southern Lebanon, even if they do start launching missiles?
Click to expand...

It's deterrence. It's not supposed to be used. They will use it for intelligence gathering, missile defence and as a signal to other countries in the region to butt out.
 
langster said:
Yes, they did, but so did Israel's current government too. Now they have the excuse they have wanted to go all out 'in defence' after the horrific attacks.

I would like to add that I've seen numerous posts from you, it's very clear what side of the fence you sit, and you often completely ignore any retort to your posts. It almost looks like a hit and run troll job.
Click to expand...

Yes, I ignore people who start whataboutism, try to find reasons and apologism for stone age barbarism, because it's simple. There is none, absolutely no excuse for massacring civilians. It's just a waste of time, energy and my well-being to read and to answer to such people. Feel free to ignore my postings too, that's why this board has this option.
By the way, saying this massacre is something that Israel's government wanted is for me on the same disgusting level as finding reasons for it.
 
Laurencio said:
It's deterrence. It's not supposed to be used. They will use it for intelligence gathering, missile defence and as a signal to other countries in the region to butt out.
Click to expand...

No other country in the region is going to butt in though. Assad just about has control over his territory. Neither of Egypt or Jordan would do anything. Iran too far away.

So that leaves Hezbollah, who are a non-state military actor and as I said, I don't think the USA are going to bomb Lebanon anyway so even if they were to join in, I doubt the American presence there is going to factor in to their thinking.

This might have made more sense in the mid 20th Century.

Its a show of support I guess but not really sure who its supposed to be deterring.
 
africanspur said:
But again, what is the purpose? Are the USA really going to start an actual naval bombardment or Southern Lebanon, even if they do start launching missiles?
Click to expand...

In the US, Israel is the only remaining issue that galvanizes both political parties to act as one. So yes, they would do it if requested by Netanyahu.
 
langster said:
That's the thing though, as I said above, Israel aren't surprised. Many citizens won't be but the government certainly won't be either. You have got those who said this was coming and then you have those that engineered it through their handling of the situation. It's a no win situation for the Palestinians as ultimately they will yet again lose out. Unfortunately many with their lives and homes. Sadly many innocent Jews and other people will too.

But what was the answer?
Click to expand...


Apologies for quoting only this part of your message, as it was very long. You're well within your rights to have posted those Images.

The only morally fair solution is to allow all Arabs who either fled or were made to flee in 1948 to get back to where they used to live.
I'm obviously talking about the children and grandchildren of those who were expelled and managed to not get slaughtered and have kids.

It's very obviously never going to happen, even with the most leftist Israeli PM you could imagine.
Allowing those people to return will end up in bloodshed that you don't want to think about. Those who will return won't return all happy chappy in this scenario and rightly so, and those who live in their actual physical homes or in different homes that were built on land that was taken by force will never evacuate.

so this morally fair (or, at least, fairer than anything I can think of) is not going to ever happen.

2 states solution also seems far-fetched even a futuristic Israeli government & the general public will all be in favor of it, like magic.
How do you connect between the West Bank and Gaza? I guess it's doable if all sides really want it but it seems weird geographically speaking.

In this imaginary scenario,

VorZakone said:
Click to expand...


Foolish of them to have ever thought that their money reaches the citizens of Gaza.
 
Raoul said:
In the US, Israel is the only remaining issue that galvanizes both political parties to act as one. So yes, they would do it if requested by Netanyahu.
Click to expand...

When has the USA ever bombed another country on Israel's say so?
 
fergieisold said:
Christ have they actually been giving them that money? Insane. Hamas has made a big mistake with this, killing not just innocent Israelis but people from Germany and I believe the UK?
Click to expand...

A fair number of dead or missing Americans and Nepalis as well. I'm sure several more nationalities will emerge once all the counting is done.
 
fergieisold said:
Christ have they actually been giving them that money? Insane. Hamas has made a big mistake with this, killing not just innocent Israelis but people from Germany and I believe the UK?
Click to expand...

The British man was serving in the IDF, he wasn't exactly there on a nice holiday.
 
africanspur said:
No other country in the region is going to butt in though. Assad just about has control over his territory. Neither of Egypt or Jordan would do anything. Iran too far away.

So that leaves Hezbollah, who are a non-state military actor and as I said, I don't think the USA are going to bomb Lebanon anyway so even if they were to join in, I doubt the American presence there is going to factor in to their thinking.

This might have made more sense in the mid 20th Century.

Its a show of support I guess but not really sure who its supposed to be deterring.
Click to expand...

These ships have excellent air defense systems, they will help prevent rocket attacks and can strike at any position in the gulf, their recon ability is also second to none.

Given the US send aircraft carriers regularly as a diplomatic message to Iran, we can't rule that out as part of the reason as well. There are several militant groups influenced by Iran that might want to get involved, and this could be the US's way to say "We see you, don't even think about it"..
 
Raoul said:
I don't think they have, but that doesn't mean under unprecedented circumstances, they wouldn't.
Click to expand...

There have been far more pressing times for Israel in the past, with breakthroughs through defensive lines by actual state militaries, backed by the Soviet Union, as opposed to a group on a tiny sliver of land with literally no way in or out, who they are about to bomb to oblivion. If Hezbollah strike, it will be brutal but they will eventually also bomb them into oblivion too.

There is no way that Biden authorises a strike on another country just because Netanyahu tells him to. He's not his lapdog.
 
africanspur said:
There is no way that Biden authorises a strike on another country just because Netanyahu tells him to. He's not his lapdog.
Click to expand...

He would do it imo. There is overwhelming support for Israel in the US, and if put in such a situation (particularly with his reelection on the line), Biden would be under crushing pressure to not just act, but act decisively. The hope is that it never gets to such a point and the likes of Hezbollah don't try anything in the north.
 
Laurencio said:
These ships have excellent air defense systems, they will help prevent rocket attacks and can strike at any position in the gulf, their recon ability is also second to none.

Given the US send aircraft carriers regularly as a diplomatic message to Iran, we can't rule that out as part of the reason as well. There are several militant groups influenced by Iran that might want to get involved, and this could be the US's way to say "We see you, don't even think about it"..
Click to expand...

But again, we're talking about non-state military actors (Hezbollah) as opposed to state actors (Iran).

I'm sure the USA could bomb away tomorrow if it wanted to. I just don't think they're going to get involved in another ME conflict, Israel or not.
 
Seems to generally be a lot more support for Palestine around the world. A hell of a lot more than a decade or so ago from my small lens on the earth
 
africanspur said:
But again, we're talking about non-state military actors (Hezbollah) as opposed to state actors (Iran).

I'm sure the USA could bomb away tomorrow if it wanted to. I just don't think they're going to get involved in another ME conflict, Israel or not.
Click to expand...

I doubt they will bomb anyone, but they will provide intelligence gathering, logistics support, blockades and state of the art missile defence, as well as munitions for the dome.

The aircraft carrier could still be a signal state actors though. Either to deter anyone potentially wanting to exploit the situation (unlikely), or sending a messsage to Iran who could well be influencing Hizbollah and shiite militants in Syria.

What they will most likely be used for is to bolster Israeli defensive capabilities.
 
Raoul said:
2 state solution is dead and dusted. At this point, its Hamas or Israel, and I think we know how that one will end.
Click to expand...
I think that solution died with Rabin. I don’t know why people still mention the two-state solution (in 1967 borders) as a realistic option.
 
Reapersoul20 said:
Seems to generally be a lot more support for Palestine around the world. A hell of a lot more than a decade or so ago from my small lens on the earth
Click to expand...

now think about the growth in support when the victims count will be something like 1,000 Palestinians dead for every 1 or 10 Israelis.

Palestinians will forever win the propaganda war when it comes to the total count of people around the world who support them,
compared to those who support Israel. how can it be any different?

But the key figures in world politics let Israel do most of what it wants when push comes to shove, so the above doesn't mean much.
 
Raoul said:
Given the events of the past 36 hours, one can't be too cautious. The Israelis will be all tied up with a ground war in Gaza, so the likes of Hezbollah or Assad would have plenty of chances to advance their respective objectives in the north or in the Golan.
Click to expand...
I believe Israel’s Air Force is more than capable to defend Israel from Hezbollah or Syria.

In fact, when this is all settled, I believe that everyone involved including Iran will play a high price.
 
Ragnar123 said:
Yes, I ignore people who start whataboutism, try to find reasons and apologism for stone age barbarism, because it's simple. There is none, absolutely no excuse for massacring civilians. It's just a waste of time, energy and my well-being to read and to answer to such people. Feel free to ignore my postings too, that's why this board has this option.
By the way, saying this massacre is something that Israel's government wanted is for me on the same disgusting level as finding reasons for it.
Click to expand...

I don't often put people on ignore as it's easy to skip past posts and if I don't agree and feel replying is pointless, I just don't reply. I've given up arguing on the internet, but I do like debate. I also find valuable information in many posts or from posters I don't agree with. I'm not always right, far from it, and I think it's always good to see differing opinions. It's only the outright lunatics I ever ignore.

I think you are confusing explaining and understanding for apologism and justification.

People are explaining why and yes, many (myself included) are bringing up past events and Israels barbaric acts and the way they treat Palestinians on a daily basis and also the continued oppression and illegal land grabbing and all its consequences. But that's not justifying Hamas or the attacks or using apologism. It's explaining reasons why, and understanding why. It doesn't mean people agree with it or how it was carried out or what went on. Nobody is justifying what went on at all.

As for saying Israels government wanted this, well obviously not everyone did, and that doesn't mean they wanted this level of an atrocity, but I am 99.9% sure Bibi wanted a reaction he could then himself use to react and do what he's always wanted to do. You only have to look at his actions, listen to his comments both past and present and see the way he's positioned his army and security forces in Gaza. And how he has planned for years to destroy Hamas.

So when you are commenting on events prior to yesterday where Palestinians were murdered or raped, or tortured, or lost more land to more settlements, were you apologising for it? Justifying it? Or were all those things ok because it's just terrorists and animals?

Just the same as you saying Hamas wanted this.....
 
Revan said:
I think that solution died with Rabin. I don’t know why people still mention the two-state solution (in 1967 borders) as a realistic option.
Click to expand...

Because if you reject the two state solution you end up in a situation where Israel annexes the entirety of Palestine and likely makes Muslim citizens second class to avoid a non-jewish democratic majority.

No one actually wants that.
 
Revan said:
I think that solution died with Rabin. I don’t know why people still mention the two-state solution (in 1967 borders) as a realistic option.
Click to expand...

I don't think many people mentioning a two-state solution still expect it to follow the 1967 borders. But that doesn't mean there is no possible two-state solution.
 
NicolaSacco said:
I don't think many people mentioning a two-state solution still expect it to follow the 1967 borders. But that doesn't mean there is no possible two-state solution.
Click to expand...

It was never going to happen anyway given that the Palestinians are splintered into two separate factions, each representing its own quasi-state; where neither seem to agree on a unified policy on how to engage with the Israelis.
 
NicolaSacco said:
I don't think many people mentioning a two-state solution still expect it to follow the 1967 borders. But that doesn't mean there is no possible two-state solution.
Click to expand...
Gaza is essentially a concentration camp, and there is no chance that Israel will accept giving East Jerusalem. I guess a possible two-state solution on current borders with Jerusalem being part of Israel might be acceptable for Israel but not for Palestinians.

So, I think the plan died with Rabin.

I do not see any chance of this conflict ending soon. Two-state solution is dead, neither Egypt nor Jordan want to do anything with a three-state solution, so Palestinians won’t have a real place of their own. Which in turn is gonna radicalize them even more and create even more jihadist terrorists. Which in turn is gonna make Israeli have even less empathy for them, and the likes of hard right politicians like Netanyahu are gonna become even more mainstream.

I do not think what happened is gonna be repeated soon. Israel is gonna destroy Gaza and make their sponsors pay a high price. I also think Israel will be better prepared for the next round whenever it happens.
 
Raoul said:
It was never going to happen anyway given that the Palestinians are splintered into two separate factions, each representing its own quasi-state; where neither seem to agree on a unified policy on how to engage with the Israelis.
Click to expand...

Yeah, this 100%.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.