A combination of western, Arab, and Israeli media.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
- Thread starter esmufc07
- Start date
A combination of western, Arab, and Israeli media.
I agree that they are having internal problems, but that isn't tied to the Palestinian issue, but rather to problems related to Netenyahu's corruption. I thought you meant in your earlier post that they were weak with respect to their position on the Palestinian issue, which imo, hasn't changed much at all.
Not directly, though internal weakness does breed external issues. Abbas will die eventually, Gaza is betting more militant (and more oppressed) and companies like Intel leaving and encouraging bright minds to emigrate with them isn't helping. And having your defence/security apparatus seen as a meme is weakness.
I'm not sure this is 'a bibi issue' (sure it helps) so much as, people no longer feel safe, so are voting bibi back in. Security is everything there, and they no longer feel secure. The irony is, that if the Palestinians were to make them feel secure and give up east jerusalem, a 2 state solution would be kinda simple once the right people were voted in. Though now their rights are being assaulted from the right, so it might not be enough. There's a reason why gay rights etc are so strong in Israel; its always been a case in point to say 'feck you' to the religious, and to remind them that Zionism should have always been secular and humanist. People are losing that battle right now though, and that breeds fear. And fear breeds mistakes. Especially as the rights bogieman is obviously the palestinian. (mass shootings of pals etc is more possible)
Not too coherent sorry; it's a huge mess over there.
Mainstream media I'm guessing?
It's been a huge mess for decades so nothing new there, Israel is like the US in some respects, it's a deeply divided country with the hardliners getting more influence and power than they really represent - or that's how it appears to me and I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong
It has but it hasn't. It's always had a sense of togetherness in a sense, a Jewish home country where any Jew of any origin or creed can live in peace without judgment for their personal choices. And traditionally it's been pretty liberal and proud of that. That very essence of the country is being drained slowly. And the Russia thing is enraging a subset too which a lot of people feel very strongly about. (The gov refused to let Jewish/Israeli Ukrainian foreign legion go back there directly or get equipment, so it has to be black marketed). Fear and anger everywhere.
20 years ago, if you asked the average Israeli if he'd rather live with Palestinians or Ultra orthodox jews, 99% would pick the Jew.
Nowadays, the average Israeli would prefer to live/share country/govern with a Palestinian as long as
a) Liberal rights were maintained
b) In the event of emergency or need, any Jew could immigrate.
Now obviously that was a hypothetical survey and could never happen from a Palestinian POV which is why a 2 state solution is needed, but I think it's very telling.
Perhaps related to this discussion:
Netanyahu Is Playing With American Fire
Netanyahu Is Playing With American Fire
As Israel’s finance minister from 2003–2005 and later as prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu was the father of Israel’s economic miracle that transformed a stagnant socialist economy into a thriving “start-up nation.” Today, however, Netanyahu is on a path toward wrecking what was one of his crowning achievements. His government’s proposed judicial reforms have begun to scare away an increasing number of Israel’s hi-tech industrialists and firms, as well as foreign investors and bankers, posing a serious risk to Israel’s credit rating.
Bessemer VC fund advises reducing shekel exposureBessemer wrote, "Israel is entering a new era of instability characterized not by the unstable coalitions of the past four years but by the unpredictable policies of an unrestrained government. In its first six weeks in power the government has routinely disregarded the opinion and warnings of industry experts including economists, bankers, investors and business owners instead making calls to imprison certain critics and attacking the media. Already the government is pointing its finger at the business community with the claim that any economic downturn will be because of the business community's actions and public statements, not the result of government policy and statements."
Report: Bank officials believe $4 billion moved out of Israel in recent weeksIn recent weeks, tech companies, moneymakers, business organizations, policymakers and prominent economists have repeatedly warned that the judicial overhaul plan is likely to hurt Israel’s standing as a stable hub for investments, since an independent judiciary is seen as a basis for economic prosperity.
Mostly yes, because the less mainstream an outlet, the less it conforms to balanced journalistic standards.
There's a guy on twitter I suggest following if you're interested in 'how to consider media' - He mostly covers Russia, but does a bit on 'internal vs external discourse;' mostly wrt navalny, but its transferrable. @kamilkazani
I've read his stuff early on during the Russian invasion.
That's an unhinged statement. I don't mean to be offensive, but you are incredibly far from the truth on the ground. It sounds to me that you have a few Israeli mates who have stated their own opinion and you took it as if it's the average Israeli. The average Israeli voted right, and is disappointed that it's not right enough. Those who voted center are almost entirely pro-settlements, do not recognize the apartheid, and is led by military personnel, and those who voted Zionist left are worried about the democracy for Jews with some sprinkles of human rights bullshit (in light of what they aren't addressing). Anti Zionist jews (barely accounting for a 4 digit number) who acknowledge the atrocities vote for Hadash and Balad, especially the latter which calls for a democracy for all it's citizen's failed to pass the threshold.
The situation in Israel is grim my friend. Absolutely dire.
Why not? the Palestinians favor it (of course from their POV this should come with "equal rights") over the 2 state solution...
And there lies one of the main problems. An increasing part of the Israeli society has been elevated/indoctrinated around the idea of perpetual domination over the Palestinians. Israeli politicians will never accept a normal one state solution.
You're doing yourself a disservice then. I watch Israeli media and read mainstream western media daily, they are not a source for balanced journalism, the rage farming there is unparalleled. They have cultivated fascism to territories you might've not encountered.
I hope you know what you mean by balanced, because in an apartheid situation, looking for balance in the normal use of the word is definitely tricky. If you're reading Israeli mainstream news on n12, ynet, Times of Israel, you should check out 972 Magazine and follow human rights organization B'tselem on twitter or even Haaretz for balance.
What I meant is that the further a media outlet strays from mainstream standards, the less it is obliged to adhere to accepted journalistic standards and the more it becomes susceptible to catering to the biased views of a core audience. So unless one is actively shopping for an outlet that only covers an issue the way they want it to (ie. right wing Israelis only getting their info from right wing Israeli sources/outlets or right wing Russians only getting their information from Russian state sources) then its important to get information from a diversity of viewpoints and form your own views on a subject based on a totality of the information being presented.
Unfortunately, that's been the case for years now... And the next generation will probably be more extreme.
Here is a very telling segment on the state of politics in Israel... Left wing pacifist and right wing terrorist are considered to be the same kind of "extremist" in everyday's Israel...
Yes you should always be aware of what mainstream media is saying, as it is basically the means of which the average person gets his opinions. But as someone who isn't living here, you have to be smart and knowledgeable enough to weed out the propaganda. No easy task. Good luck and I personally hope you ditch the bothsides-ism, because it truly is the biggest blinder in matters of apartheid, occupation and ethnic cleansing.
Edit: Do watch the video above this post. It makes the exact same point I'm making on bothsides-ism. Incredible timing @Pintu
Israelis aren't voting on a single issue. The same way as not everybody in the UK votes tory because of brexit etc. For example, Judicial reform wasn't even on the table in the elections; nobody saw it coming. It was all about security and feeling safe.
I won't argue with you about what 'the average Israeli' wants or supports. Obviously we have different opinions.
Being pro Zionism and pro security isn't anti Palestinian though. I know that's tough to understand from the outside.
And no offence taken. It's not worth our time to debate with each other, because we come from a fundamental different understanding.
This is why Kamil came to mind. The idea of looking at discourse for external dissemination fed through a filter of elites to cultivate image, vs discourse designed for internal dissemination designed for the local populace was his.
Especially on the Palestinian side, it's difficult to consistently get good exposure of their internal discourse.
I'm not from the outside. Unless you're talking about being a Zionist, then yes, I'm on the outside looking in with disgust. Are you Israeli?
Unless you live or have lived in Israel, you're on the outside. And yes, I've lived in Israel.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with living in Israel, wanting a safe and secure country, with the original secular zionism values. There is nothing wrong with wanting to live without fear.
What are the judicial reforms? Is there an article one could point me to?
It depends on whose Zionism... Zeev Sternhel was definitely a Zionist and he still kept speaking up against the Apartheid and the growing fascism in Israel until his dying breaths, he clearly saw no contradiction between Zionism and the dream of just (towards non jews) and Democratic Israel. Bezalel Smotrich (the finance minister) on the other hand is a totally different kind Zionist. He considers his homophobia and his racism to be an inherent part of his Zionist identity and a source of pride...
A powergrab by the executive. Really trumpy shit. https://www.ft.com/content/ffd856f8-b986-4b42-9d4c-0b79f32486c6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_judicial_reform
50/50 if it goes through. There's a lot of backlash.
Groovy. Will peruse later. Thanks!
How much have the displacements of Palestinians, the apartheid policies, the colonization, and the building of more and more illegal settlements helped achieve the security goals of peace-loving Netanyahu?
Maybe some vote for Apartheid because they approve of the Appartheid... Maybe there wouldn't be an Appartheid if the society in Israel had not been prepared to accept it.
I am a citizen. "Nothing wrong" is laughable, read a little from the indiginous and human rights point of view.
Smotrich is a terrorist and a disgrace to humanity, proper little Kahane minion. He can be fired out of a cannon followed by Ben Gvir. Utter specimen. Little fecker even looks a bit like Kadyrov. Maybe we can
Important to note though that the average Israeli doesn't support these nuts (yes around 500k/8% did, but there are reasons for that: https://www.timesofisrael.com/drama...-fueled-by-voters-willing-to-hold-their-nose/). It's the alliance with the ultra religious, the weakness of political system (and bibi) that has given these clowns such disproportionate power. There are obviously nutjobs and jewish supremacists who follow them too.
You have absolutely no reason to believe me, so whatever, but the average Israeli doesn't care about settlements or taking Palestinian land. They care about safely in their community, the economy, liberal freedoms, etc. They care more about Ukraine and gay rights. They care about having a safe home. They don't much love the law of return and certainly dont want jewbeaches or Israeli arabs expelled from Israel.
And they are a lot more angry about judicial reform, and religious people getting more money to study in their madrassas than citizens get etc, than they are at the Palestinians. There's not so much hatred there. They are somewhat like ostriches. They generally trust the state to keep them safe and put their heads in the sand to the methodology. They see no better way. And they don't trust the politicians but generally do trust the army to keep them safe.
Oh and btw, https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...erts-say/00000185-ed38-d532-abdd-edbc1b220000
Nobody wants that except the loons. There's even a few articles on potential civil war: https://m.jpost.com/opinion/article-725567/amp
I generally wouldn't engage here, but thought this was worthwhile.
You've managed to take the statement:
There is nothing wrong with wanting to live without fear.
And tell me that it's laughable, because of human rights and indigenous reasons.
Discourse is honestly impossible, if we can't agree on a statement like that.
I was laughing at "nothing wrong with Zionism".
Of course nobody should be living in fear, I absolutely 100% agree with you. But I ask you, does that extend to the Palestinians who are living the consequences of the Zionist project on a daily basis? Israelis who are supporting illegal settlements, the open air prison of Gaza, the ongoing ethnic cleansing in the apartheid state of Israel yet playing the eternal victim, I don't have much sympathy for, even though I do believe them that they feel this way. Israelis minds should be freed of the superiority complex and the entitlement to the land, and freed of the dehumanization of Palestinians and therefore of themselves.
I believe in one democratic state for all people from the river to the sea. Not a democracy for the Jews in Israel, a puppet regime in the shape of the Palestinian authority in the west bank, an open air prison in Gaza and apartheid in East Jerusalem.
But after yesterday's first vote on the judicial reform, we are edging closer to one dictatorship and full-on apartheid.
What is a secular Zionist? 
How can someone call themselves secular but then say a piece of land belongs to them because their religion says so, even if it means throwing out people already living there.
How can someone call themselves secular but then say a piece of land belongs to them because their religion says so, even if it means throwing out people already living there.
Fair.
What is a secular Zionist?
How can someone call themselves secular but then say a piece of land belongs to them because their religion says so, even if it means throwing out people already living there.
Zionism was secular from its inception. Its roots are literally the enlightenment and heated up nicely with Dreyfus. And it was never 'because the religion says so.' Even the most nationalistic like Jabontinsky were secular. It's why gay rights and individual freedom and stuff are so important.
The Rabbis and stuff stiffly opposed Herzl because the ultra orthodox believe that only the Messiah can create a jewish state. (obviously there's loads of revisionism now and the far right rabbis are like 'hey this is the prelude to messiah, the seculars are being kicked out of government)
Glad your ignorance amuses you though.
During the vote yesterday, Parliament member Almog Cohen was on Facebook live making animal noises, and mocking the Arab members calling them livestock. He was telling his viewers that you need to talk to Arabs in their language, ie sheep for them to understand. Vice prime minister Arie Deri was giggling next to him. Today Almog Cohen was on national TV saying that Arab parliament members and anti Zionist member Ofer Cassif aren’t even worthy of being called sheep and that they aren’t human beings.
Disgusting extremists yes, but disrespect and disdain is far better than what it could be. (It somewhat reminds me of British politics) In my 'home' country, they'd just line them up against a wall and shoot them. And then shoot anybody else who agreed with them.
What is a secular Zionist?
How can someone call themselves secular but then say a piece of land belongs to them because their religion says so, even if it means throwing out people already living there.
Early Zionists were mostly atheist and secular Jewish colonialists who knew they could draw a historic claim, from thousands year old religious texts, to the land of Palestine. It needn’t make too much sense back in the day as colonialism wasn’t seen as a sin in the west. It doesn’t have to make sense today either because removing people from their homes and lands because some ancestors lived there 2500 years ago doesn’t hold water for any honest intellectual.
Even though it had advocates more than half a century ago, homosexuality became legal in the nineties. You should read how the Shabak blackmails gay Palestinians to become informants, to see how vicious it can be for Palestinian gays. Abused by Israeli powers and most Arab and Israeli society sadly.
I guess we’re lucky.
What is a secular Zionist?
How can someone call themselves secular but then say a piece of land belongs to them because their religion says so, even if it means throwing out people already living there.
Not sure if you're genuinely interested in an answer to your question, but if so then this is a pretty good, brief account of the origins of Zionism and how it could only really have manifested as a secular ideology in the particular context in which it emerged - https://ismi.emory.edu/documents/Readings/Avineri Zionism as a National LIberation Movement.pdf
If the need to kick people out of homes they've been living in for centuries because they don't belong to the same religion as you doesn't come from religion, then from where does it come from?
The document constantly talks about it's links to religion. Again, saying that you have more rights on a piece of land purely based on your religion, is not secular!
I ofcourse understand that Jewish people have had it worst for centuries now and they deserve a country for themselves where they feel safe, but that can be any place on earth. The reason they want it to be Israel, and that they had to kick people already living there out, is because that is the place where the religion was established. It would be the same as a Muslim claiming Mecca and Medina as that's where Islam was established.
I don’t think you’ve understood it.
He has not read it, though the first page already offers an explanation.
That's a well written, informative yet insufficient piece on the origins of Zionism. It explains, very well, what gave birth to the idea of Zionism and then, dismissively, reduces the opposition to the movement to a religious faction. I would have hoped that it would go deeper into the serious debate about Zionism amongst leading intellectual Jewish figures at the time, some vehemently against the colonization of another people's land, the rest, bullish opportunists who viewed the world through a Eurocentric colonial lens. I think that would have balanced matters at least a little bit. The cruelty of implementing the Zionist's ideas in Palestine was not lost on a large faction of the Jewish community, and it still isn't till this day.
However you look at it, nothing can liberate the conscious' mind of the evils of Zionism from it's first baby steps in the region to its current openly fascist iteration.