Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Superden said:
pro israeli lobby which looks to undermine any criticism of its actions (including murdering children regularly) as being anti-semtiic, whilst using jewish religious texts to justify its actions.
- there fixed it properly.
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Precisely which Jewish Texts do you refer to in justifying murdering children?
 
@Fearless

how about:
I don’t believe in western morality, i.e. don’t kill civilians or children, don’t destroy holy sites, don’t fight during holiday seasons, don’t bomb cemeteries, don’t shoot until they shoot first because it is immoral. The only way to fight a moral war is the Jewish way: Destroy their holy sites. Kill men, women and children (and cattle). Rabbi Manis Friedman

in a broader sense, everything Israel does is seen as protecting its right to exist as a Jewish state, its attacks on Gaza right now, done as a pre-empted strike against possible attacks. And where does this right to exist as a jewish state on Palestinian land come from?
 
Superden said:
@Fearless

how about:
I don’t believe in western morality, i.e. don’t kill civilians or children, don’t destroy holy sites, don’t fight during holiday seasons, don’t bomb cemeteries, don’t shoot until they shoot first because it is immoral. The only way to fight a moral war is the Jewish way: Destroy their holy sites. Kill men, women and children (and cattle). Rabbi Manis Friedman

in a broader sense, everything Israel does is seen as protecting its right to exist as a Jewish state, its attacks on Gaza right now, done as a pre-empted strike against possible attacks. And where does this right to exist as a jewish state on Palestinian land come from?
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These aren't Jewish texts / laws for starters, just an opinion of an idiot. The Bible, the Quran, San Remo, Balfour, League of Nations/UN etc. etc. all validate Israel's existing where it is.
 
Fearless said:
These aren't Jewish texts / laws for starters, just an opinion of an idiot. The Bible, the Quran, San Remo, Balfour, League of Nations/UN etc. etc. all validate Israel's existing where it is.
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ah the san remo declaration: 'the British government had undertaken to favour the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine without prejudice to the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine'

nothing in there about stealing all their land and bombing them into submission? oh sorry, mowing the lawn.
 
115 pages ago, but it’s still relevant…
Super Hans said:
https://www.juancole.com/2010/03/lord-curzon-on-palestine-as-class.html

Lord Curzon: "It was pointed out (1) that, while the Powers had unquestionably recognised the historical connection of the Jews with Palestine by their formal acceptance of the Balfour Declaration and their textual incorporation of it in the Turkish Peace Treaty drafted at San Remo, this was far from constituting anything in the nature of a legal claim, and that the use of such words might be, and was, indeed, certain to be, used as the basis of all sorts of political claims by the Zionists for the control of Palestinian administration in the future, and ;2) that, while Mr. Balfour’s Declaration had provided for the establishment of a Jewish National Home in Palestine, this was not the same thing as the reconstitution of Palestine as a Jewish National Home–an extension of the phrase for which there was no justification, and which was certain to be employed in the future as the basis for claims of the character to which I have referred."

Ouch. Hey Fearless, the bold part is you :lol:
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Carolina Red said:
To go along with that...

"Hubert Young, an important figure of the Foreign Office, wrote in November 1920 that the commitment made by London “in respect of Palestine is the Balfour Declaration constituting it a National Home for the Jewish People”. Lord Curzon corrected him: “No. ‘Establishing a National Home in Palestine for the Jewish people’ – a very different proposition”.

The British White Paper of June 1922 – the first document that officially clarified the interpretation of the Mandate’s text – clarified that the Balfour Declaration does “not contemplate that Palestine as a whole should be converted into a Jewish National Home, but that such a Home should be founded ‘in Palestine’”. Furthermore, it stressed – and this is perhaps the most relevant aspect – that the “Zionist congress” that took place in Carlsbad in September 1921 had officially accepted that “the determination of the Jewish people to live with the Arab people on terms of unity and mutual respect, and together with them to make the common home into a flourishing community, the upbuilding of which may assure to each of its peoples an undisturbed national development”.

It is only in light on these clarifications that the preamble as well as Article 2 of the Mandate text can and should be understood. It is noteworthy that Zionist consent to such interpretation was requested, and received, before the Mandate was confirmed in July 1922. In Weizmann’s words: “It was made clear to us that confirmation of the Mandate would be conditional on our acceptance of the policy as interpreted in the White Paper [of 1922], and my colleagues and I therefore had to accept it, which we did, though not without some qualms”.

Israel’s right to defend itself against terror and discrimination is something that any person interested in peace cannot but support. Equally true is that the attempt to exploit and colonize the Palestinian territories through a misleading use of history, international law, and international consensus is a dangerous threat that requires better public understanding."
https://www.e-ir.info/2014/02/14/th...nd-the-selflegitimizazion-of-the-settlements/
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2cents said:
I think you’re knowledgeable enough to understand that “Jewish Lobby” is a poor choice of words here.
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It's just a charade now bro. Words in international diplomacy used to mean something, that all changed in the last 2 decades of continous hypocritical stances and actions. Words mean feck-all now.
 
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RedTiger said:
It's just a charade now bro. Words in international diplomacy used to mean something, that all changed in the last 2 decades of continous hypocritical stances and actions. Words mean feck-all now.
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Well I disagree in this particular instance.
 
If you browsed the Bbc.co.uk stories in the last week or so, you'd see the violence described as a 'flare up' and the announcement of the ceasefire showing pictures of jubilant Palestinians.

The Israeli violence is always toned down and the photos are designed to give the impression that the Palestinians have gained some sort of victory.
 
Carolina Red said:
115 pages ago, but it’s still relevant…
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You seem to negate the fact that the version of 'Palestine' they were talking about then included what is now Jordan until Churchill re- sliced the cake to gift the Hashemites, instantly reducing the size of any Jewish state as envisioned in Sam Remo. Jordan is 78% of palestine and therefore the natural Palestinian State. San Remo still stands and as far as claims go re the WB/Gaza then you need to process this too:

PLO charter 1964:

Article 24. This Organization does not exercise any regional sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or the Himmah Area. Its activities will be on the national popular level in the liberational, organizational, political and financial fields.
 
The funny thing looking at Twitter and all the propaganda plus brainwashed Americans, who now no longer care about people dying or dead babies well not in this instance, is that I see a lot of talk and art implying Israel was retaliating to rocket attacks but even Israel at the time said they were acting preemptively because the arrest MIGHT lead to attacks.

The hypocrisy and double standards really is astounding
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-62480381


Israel-Gaza: Nine-year-old Gazan recalls fear as Israeli strike hit


Israel-Gaza: Nine-year-old Gazan recalls fear as Israeli strike hitClose

Nine-year-old Leen Matar was rescued from the rubble as her neighbourhood came under Israeli attack, the Reuters news agency has reported.
 
and the bit that happened before May 1948, you know over a hundred thousand palestinians were booted out of their lands by the Jewish—Haganah (zionist terrorists)...is that bit on the back of the map?
 
Superden said:
and the bit that happened before May 1948, you know over a hundred thousand palestinians were booted out of their lands by the Jewish—Haganah (zionist terrorists)...is that bit on the back of the map?
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He/she will respond saying that they weren't booted out but were told to leave by Arab forces because they were promised they would have their land back.

Eventhough there's evidence that people left because they were scared from the war and Israeli terror groups were attacking native Palestine's in land taken over.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
He/she will respond saying that they weren't booted out but were told to leave by Arab forces because they were promised they would have their land back.

Eventhough there's evidence that people left because they were scared from the war and Israeli terror groups were attacking native Palestine's in land taken over.
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Sorry mate, but we'll need a youtube video on that.
 
So black people walk down one (rotten) path and white people down the clean built up path. Where have we seen this @Fearless ?

Did I say black and white? Feel free to substitute with other races/religions.
 
Jewish Voice for Action / Jewish Voice for Peace have published the below:


Demand action for Gaza now.

Take two minutes right now to call your representative and senators and demand that they denounce Israel's attacks on Gaza over the weekend, call for an end to Israel's siege, and stop funding this violence.

Over the last three days, the Israeli military rained bombs on Gaza, again - killing Palestinians, including children. Now, a ceasefire appears to have been reached. But this is a horrible nightmare that Palestinians live through over and over.

Even when Israel isn't dropping bombs and flattening apartment buildings, life in Gaza is unbearable. Palestinians are living with Israeli state violence every day of the year. In Gaza, Palestinians have been living under the Israeli state's military siege for 15 years. No one can escape, no one can flee to safety.

Infuriatingly but predictably, the members of Congress who spoke out gave the usual response that they stand beside Israel as it drops bombs on over two million Palestinians who are locked under a military siege. This is the same Congress that sends $3.8 billion to the Israeli military every single year.

Hundreds and thousands of calls will make a difference. I know for a fact that when we get the phones of Congress ringing off the hook, they pay attention. We have built this kind of pressure before and we need to do it again. Now.

————————————

For any American posters, you can get the ball rolling by filling out the form here:

https://act.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/a/gazaunderattack
 
The estimated 24,000 Jews in Palestine in 1882 represented just 0.3% of the world's Jewish population.[36] In 1914 Palestine had a population of 657,000 Muslim Arabs, 81,000 Christian Arabs, and 59,000 Jews.[37] McCarthy estimates the non-Jewish population of Palestine at 452,789 in 1882, 737,389 in 1914, 725,507 in 1922, 880,746 in 1931 and 1,339,763 in 1946.[38]

According to Dr. Mutaz M. Qafisheh, the number of people who held Ottoman citizenship prior to the British Mandate in 1922 was just over 729,873, of which 7,143 were Jews.[39] Qafisheh calculated this using population and immigration statistics from the 1946 Survey of Palestine, as well as the fact that 37,997 people acquired provisional Palestinian naturalization certificates in September 1922 for the purpose of voting in the legislative election,[40] of which all but 100 were Jews.[41]

British Mandate era

Official reports

In 1920, the British Government's Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine stated that there were hardly 700,000 people living in Palestine:


There are now in the whole of Palestine hardly 700,000 people, a population much less than that of the province of Gallilee alone in the time of Christ. Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or—a small number—are Protestants. The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine. Most of them were animated by religious motives; they came to pray and to die in the Holy Land, and to be buried in its soil. After the persecutions in Russia forty years ago, the movement of the Jews to Palestine assumed larger proportions. Jewish agricultural colonies were founded. They developed the culture of oranges and gave importance to the Jaffa orange trade. They cultivated the vine, and manufactured and exported wine. They drained swamps. They planted eucalyptus trees. They practised, with modern methods, all the processes of agriculture. There are at the present time 64 of these settlements, large and small, with a population of some 15,000.[42]
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By 1948, the population had risen to 1,900,000, of whom 68% were Arabs, and 32% were Jews (UNSCOP report, including Bedouin).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)
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it's called settler colonialism for a reason. the palestinians are conceding most of their former territory. for that they want a state in return or absolute equality within israel if no state is given. look at an interactive map of palestine over the past century and you'll see the eradication of palestinian arabs from palestinian land which was expropriated to the jewish state of israel. that in itself was criminal. being that it can't be changed, the least you can do is remedy the situation and stop the current state of apartheid and landgrabs in the west bank.

you can share as many maps as you want and argue semantics all day long but the historical demographic trend which takes key events like balfour and others into account tells the entire story.
 
neverdie said:
it's called settler colonialism for a reason. the palestinians are conceding most of their former territory. for that they want a state in return or absolute equality within israel if no state is given. look at an interactive map of palestine over the past century and you'll see the eradication of palestinian arabs from palestinian land which was expropriated to the jewish state of israel. that in itself was criminal. being that it can't be changed, the least you can do is remedy the situation and stop the current state of apartheid and landgrabs in the west bank.

you can share as many maps as you want and argue semantics all day long but the historical demographic trend which takes key events like balfour and others into account tells the entire story.
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The 'Palestine' Arabs 'former territory' was a backwater of the Ottoman Empire. Fact. The Arabs conquered vast tracts of northern Africa and the Middle East with the might of the sword, but you don't have problems with that, do you?
 Why not? Why is colonialism all of a sudden a purely Western thing?
And you're predictably silent about the 50% non-European Jews given sanctuary in Palestine having been turfed out penniless from the Muslim countries where they had lived for 1,000 plus years, with pogroms and all.
 
Fearless said:
you don't have problems with that, do you?
 Why not?
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prior to the 1970s or so, when was the last time in history that the jewish population in palestine outnumbered the arab population? how far back do we have to go?

i begin with the zionist movement in the 19th century and the events after that because that's when the jewish population move into palestine and it colonizes rapidly from the 1920s onward. from 10% of the population in 1914 to 33% in 1948 when israel declares itself. what else can you call that except colonialism?
 
DeGea’sFeet said:
The funny thing looking at Twitter and all the propaganda plus brainwashed Americans, who now no longer care about people dying or dead babies well not in this instance, is that I see a lot of talk and art implying Israel was retaliating to rocket attacks but even Israel at the time said they were acting preemptively because the arrest MIGHT lead to attacks.

The hypocrisy and double standards really is astounding
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Isn't it what the Russians are saying too? They invaded Ukraine because it may be used by NATO?
Double Standards? Joseph Borrel has given an interview to El Pais, agreeing that they have double standards between Ukraine and Palestine.
 
Foxbatt said:
Isn't it what the Russians are saying too? They invaded Ukraine because it may be used by NATO?
Double Standards? Joseph Borrel has given an interview to El Pais, agreeing that they have double standards between Ukraine and Palestine.
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And yet...

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has said he wants his country to become a “‘big Israel’ with its own face” after the Russian invasion ends, stressing that security would likely be the main issue in Ukraine during the post-war period.

https://www.president.gov.ua/en/new...zhavi-pitannya-bezpeki-maye-buti-na-per-74113

Olena Zelenska, the wife of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, said her nation sees Israel as a source of inspiration for resilience given its history of facing attacks from its neighbors.

“It is not an exaggeration to say that Israel’s past experience inspires the citizens of Ukraine,” Zelenska told Channel 12 news in an interview.
“We see the Israelis’ strength and power of resilience in the difficult situation Israel has been in for many years. Your resilience serves as an example for us,” she said in the interview, which was conducted through a remote video connection.
 
Foxbatt said:
Isn't it what the Russians are saying too? They invaded Ukraine because it may be used by NATO?
Double Standards? Joseph Borrel has given an interview to El Pais, agreeing that they have double standards between Ukraine and Palestine.
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Agreed. Pretty much every aggressor lies about their motive for attacking and gives a moral , usually dubious, reason that their people will find acceptable.

My beef is that the average person sees through the propaganda of Russia, rightly calls it out and condemns it, will do their bit to post the war crimes and dead Ukrainian babies and civilians etc. but believe the propaganda of their own nation or its allies. Then they act shocked when someRussians support the war against ukraine. Not realising that those Russians are basically just brainwashed like them.


Also it’s tragic but Russia has said they’re fighting Nazis. Obviously that’s not the real reason. But that Ukraine was a hotspot for Nazi groups & training can’t be denied, just have to read the articles before 2022. But to what extent who knows, however undoubtably the invasion and atrocities will increase the power of the Nazi groups in ukraine.
 
Really sad scenes, I hope I’ll get to see a free Palestine in my lifetime. feck apartheid
 
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