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It all comes down to messianic fanatics in the US




The fact that US politics and foreign affairs are set by the religous views of people is fecking mental. Just because these people believe that Jews have a literal god given right to land because they read it in a book means that the whole world has to conform to it. Mental :lol:.
 
The fact that US politics and foreign affairs are set by the religous views of people is fecking mental. Just because these people believe that Jews have a literal god given right to land because they read it in a book means that the whole world has to conform to it. Mental :lol:.

There are many reasons for American support for Israel, but the most important IMO is Israel's role in helping preserve America's strategic dominance in the region. I'll quote Chomsky:

"the evolution of America’s relationship to Israel 'has been determined primarily by the changing role that Israel occupied in the context of
America’s changing conceptions of its political-strategic interests in the Middle East'...
it would be an error to assume that Israel represents the major U.S. interest in the Middle East. Rather, the major interest lies in the energy reserves of the region, primarily in the Arabian peninsula...

...Had it not been for Israel’s perceived geopolitical role—primarily in the Middle East, but elsewhere as well—it is doubtful that the various pro-Israeli lobbies in the U.S. would have had much influence in policy formation, or that the climate of opinion deplored by Peled and other Israeli doves could have been constructed and maintained. Correspondingly, it will very likely erode if Israel comes to be seen as a threat rather than a support to the primary U.S. interest in the Middle East region, which is to maintain control over its energy reserves and the flow of petrodollars."​
 
The fact that US politics and foreign affairs are set by the religous views of people is fecking mental. Just because these people believe that Jews have a literal god given right to land because they read it in a book means that the whole world has to conform to it. Mental :lol:.

It is mental. Everything boils down to sub state pressure in the US. In this case, there are substantial voting blocks (evangelical Christians on the right and Israel friendly blocks on the left) to where the US have any sort of substantial deviance on Israel policy. That's why the support will remain for the foreseeable future.
 
It is mental. Everything boils down to sub state pressure in the US. In this case, there are substantial voting blocks (evangelical Christians on the right and Israel friendly blocks on the left) to where the US have any sort of substantial deviance on Israel policy. That's why the support will remain for the foreseeable future.
Couple to that 9/11 and increased resentment towards the Muslim world since, then it makes it all the more easier for them to side with Israel.

What will happen though I wonder if the Israelis do end up claiming all Palestinian Territories and Jesus doesn’t make a comeback. I’d imagined there’d be a few confused Evangelicals over in Alabama and San Antonio. Though I suppose it wouldn’t matter at that point.
 
Couple to that 9/11 and increased resentment towards the Muslim world since, then it makes it all the more easier for them to side with Israel.

What will happen though I wonder if the Israelis do end up claiming all Palestinian Territories and Jesus doesn’t make a comeback. I’d imagined there’d be a few confused Evangelicals over in Alabama and San Antonio. Though I suppose it wouldn’t matter at that point.

I think what will happen over time is the newer millennial voters will be a bit less interested in pro-Israel policies which will eventually be reflected in US policy. Some of this obviously also hinges on whether the Palestinians get some competent, less militant more technocratic leadership.
 
I think what will happen over time is the newer millennial voters will be a bit less interested in pro-Israel policies which will eventually be reflected in US policy. Some of this obviously also hinges on whether the Palestinians get some competent, less militant more technocratic leadership.
Hamas’ popularity unsurprisingly tends to correlate with how dire the Palestinian situation is. We often forget that the Palestinian resistance groups prior to the 80s were secular, but with the dire straits they’re in now, namely the situation in Gaza coupled to the ramping up of illegal settlements has only strengthened Hamas’ hand. People tend to embrace desperate paths in desperate times and no situation is more desperate than the ones the Palestinians currently find themselves in.

And with Trumps recent stroke of genius, Hamas will only grow in strength and appeal I’m afraid. It’s funny in a twisted sense how the Israeli hardliners and Hamas have a mutually beneficial relationship.
 
Hamas’ popularity unsurprisingly tends to correlate with how dire the Palestinian situation is. We often forget that the Palestinian resistance groups prior to the 80s were secular, but with the dire straits they’re in now, namely the situation in Gaza coupled to the ramping up of illegal settlements has only strengthened Hamas’ hand. People tend to embrace desperate paths in desperate times and no situation is more desperate than the ones the Palestinians currently find themselves in.

And with Trumps recent stroke of genius, Hamas will only grow in strength and appeal I’m afraid. It’s funny in a twisted sense how the Israeli hardliners and Hamas have a mutually beneficial relationship.

Yes, the only hope is that Trump initiates some sort of peace process but I wouldn't hold my breath since his base are basically for everything that Netanyahu is for.
 
Hamas’ popularity unsurprisingly tends to correlate with how dire the Palestinian situation is. We often forget that the Palestinian resistance groups prior to the 80s were secular, but with the dire straits they’re in now, namely the situation in Gaza coupled to the ramping up of illegal settlements has only strengthened Hamas’ hand. People tend to embrace desperate paths in desperate times and no situation is more desperate than the ones the Palestinians currently find themselves in.

And with Trumps recent stroke of genius, Hamas will only grow in strength and appeal I’m afraid. It’s funny in a twisted sense how the Israeli hardliners and Hamas have a mutually beneficial relationship.

That doesn't make complete sense since Hamas grew in popularity throughout the 90s, a time when checkpoints were being removed, control over territory was being transferred from Israeli to Palestinian hands, and peace talks were ongoing with the general expectation that they'd result in a deal.

It makes more sense I think to view the rise of Hamas throughout that period as due both to internal factors such as the image of a credibly rejectionist and honest rival to Arafat who was seen as selling out Palestinian rights, and external/regional factors, most obviously the general growth in Islamist militancy in the Arab and Muslim world at the time which saw Islamist insurgencies and movements in Algeria, Sudan, Egypt, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Balkans and Chechnya - the Islamization of Palestinian society which evolved from the late 80s onwards reflected broader regional trends.
 
The best thing about this thread is that you can identify the individuals defending this massacre and you can avoid them in the future.
 
What impact will the increasing Israeli Haredim population have?

On the face of it it will drive Israeli society to a more extreme anti-Palestinian position. On the other hand it will sharpen some of the inherent divisions within Israeli society which the Palestinians up til now have not been savvy enough to take advantage of. It is a population which cares far more about the land than it does the political project of Zionism.
 
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The ignore feature is also an option.
While I feel good I've ignored him, I will not forget how he heartlessly said Germany is inviting those anti-semites about the Syrian refugees, many of which are children who don't even know what anti-semite means, I want to clarify a point about the Syrian refugees, the Syrian people don't like living outside their country, I love the US, I love how welcoming and kind the people are there, but when I'm there and in about 2 weeks I start getting homesick, those refugees were exiled and had to leave everything behind, it was not a choice, I will not forget that RC allowed such comment as well with all the love and respect to this site, this isn't freedom of speech, this is plain racism while saying hurtful stuff, that is all.
 
The fact that US politics and foreign affairs are set by the religous views of people is fecking mental. Just because these people believe that Jews have a literal god given right to land because they read it in a book means that the whole world has to conform to it. Mental :lol:.
Tbf to the US, didn't Britain actually start this?
 
There are many reasons for American support for Israel, but the most important IMO is Israel's role in helping preserve America's strategic dominance in the region. I'll quote Chomsky:

"the evolution of America’s relationship to Israel 'has been determined primarily by the changing role that Israel occupied in the context of
America’s changing conceptions of its political-strategic interests in the Middle East'...
it would be an error to assume that Israel represents the major U.S. interest in the Middle East. Rather, the major interest lies in the energy reserves of the region, primarily in the Arabian peninsula...

...Had it not been for Israel’s perceived geopolitical role—primarily in the Middle East, but elsewhere as well—it is doubtful that the various pro-Israeli lobbies in the U.S. would have had much influence in policy formation, or that the climate of opinion deplored by Peled and other Israeli doves could have been constructed and maintained. Correspondingly, it will very likely erode if Israel comes to be seen as a threat rather than a support to the primary U.S. interest in the Middle East region, which is to maintain control over its energy reserves and the flow of petrodollars."​

Honestly that just sounds like an aside. Lobbyist are what runs Washington as they can sink you easily even when the obvious thing to do is the opposite of what they Require. Obvious example being the NRA.

It is mental. Everything boils down to sub state pressure in the US. In this case, there are substantial voting blocks (evangelical Christians on the right and Israel friendly blocks on the left) to where the US have any sort of substantial deviance on Israel policy. That's why the support will remain for the foreseeable future.

It's also why I know there will never be any common sense gun reform either.

Tbf to the US, didn't Britain actually start this?

Well yes it is my belief that Britain started a terrible sequence of unfortunate events. Doesn't excuse the Americans for literally shaping their foreign policy Palestine with religious beliefs.
 
Critics Question Whether Pastor Who Said Hitler Was Sent by God Was Good Choice to Speak at U.S. Embassy in Israel

Slate’s Ruth Graham wrote Monday morning about Robert Jeffress, a prominent Dallas pastor who was invited to speak at the opening of the U.S.’ extremely controversial new embassy in Jerusalem despite having noted that he believes Jews will suffer for eternity in hell. Jeffress wasn’t the only evangelical figure in attendance the event, though—and in fact, he didn’t even have the hottest take on Judaism of the two who were there. Here’s CNN on San Antonio pastor John Hagee, the founder of Christians United for Israel, who delivered a benediction at the new embassy Monday:

Audio from one of Hagee’s sermons in the 1990s was leaked that seemed to suggest that Adolf Hitler had been fulfilling God’s will by aiding the desire of Jews to return to Israel in accordance with biblical prophecy.

“God says in Jeremiah 16: ‘Behold, I will bring them the Jewish people again unto their land that I gave to their fathers. … Behold, I will send for many fishers, and after will I send for many hunters,’” Hagee said, according to a transcript of his sermon. "’And they the hunters shall hunt them.’ That would be the Jews. … Then God sent a hunter. A hunter is someone who comes with a gun and he forces you. Hitler was a hunter.”

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/05/israel-embassy-pastor-said-hitler-was-sent-by-god.html
 
That status omits the fact that the infrastructure in Gaza is bombed repeatedly by Israel. I've lost count of the amount of buildings built by EC or UNRWA, or ICRC funding that have been destroyed by Israeli bombs mere months after they were built.

That person may say that Hamas should still do more, but even when public buildings and infrastructure is built up in the region it gets decimated every single time. Also, Israel controls everything that comes in or out of the control by land, air or sea. It's not an autonomous place at all. Even in the last bout of conflict, Israel controlled what was going to come in to Gaza and any time building materials were brought in, they were promptly rejected because Israel argued they were going to be used for tunnels. So please ask your friend how exactly he submits that Hamas should be doing more?

Also, please let him/her know that the 2 state solution is dead (seriously, either of the two options available to them right now will almost certainly be unpalatable to Israel - a) give citizenship to Palestinian Arabs which would be a demographic time bomb; or b) agree to sit and thrash out a 2 state solution - that won't happen because they would have to acquiesce East Jerusalem). Also, normal every day Israelis are the ones who vote in the likes of Likud and have done repeatedly over the past decade (even longer when you go back to that feckwit Sharon) even in spite of Bibi's corruption and his bloodlust. Even now, the vast majority have backed the actions of the IDF over the last month or so, with approval rates of upwards of 60%.

How about showing a willingness to engage in talks and refrain from violence and aspirations to rewrite perceived past injustices by turning the clock back to 1947. If I think Hamas are prepared to engage in direct/indirect talks, I would encourage Israel to do the same.
 
How about showing a willingness to engage in talks and refrain from violence and aspirations to rewrite perceived past injustices by turning the clock back to 1947. If I think Hamas are prepared to engage in direct/indirect talks, I would encourage Israel to do the same.
What would you view as an acceptable result, accepting where we are?
 
If karna was a thing, It's a lot of bad karma and blood on the hands of the American people..
Should the Americans support the other side of this conflict? Support Hamas and the Palestinians instead of the state of Israel? Honest questions. How can the Americans reverse their “bad karma” as you called it, and began working on “good karma”?
Let me know your thoughts and the possibilities that could happen with this change.
 
Should the Americans support the other side of this conflict? Support Hamas and the Palestinians instead of the state of Israel? Honest questions. How can the Americans reverse their “bad karma” as you called it, and began working on “good karma”?
Let me know your thoughts and the possibilities that could happen with this change.
We could start with having a more serious response to what happened than a statement that makes it clear they do not entertain the idea that the Israeli armed forces did anything wrong.
 
What would you view as an acceptable result, accepting where we are?

The most pressing issues that both sides could gain from would include:
  • Renouncing the encouragement of, and acts of violence, and the building of tunnels in exchange for lifting the blockade and joint control of border crossings.
  • Accepting a two-state solution based on the 1949 Armistice Lines.
  • Releasing of Israeli hostages in exchange for prisoners and/or helping to rebuild the Gazan economy.
There are other matters, like allowing Hamas to run in elections in the West Bank. But the PA and Hamas, I think, first need to resolve their differences.
 
The most pressing issues that both sides could gain from would include:
  • Renouncing the encouragement of, and acts of violence, and the building of tunnels in exchange for lifting the blockade and joint control of border crossings.
  • Accepting a two-state solution based on the 1949 Armistice Lines.
  • Releasing of Israeli hostages in exchange for prisoners and/or helping to rebuild the Gazan economy.
There are other matters, like allowing Hamas to run in elections in the West Bank. But the PA and Hamas, I think, first need to resolve their differences.
Do you find it credible that Israel is currently in a position to accept 1949 borders? They don't give that impression.
 
Do you find it credible that Israel is currently in a position to accept 1949 borders? They don't give that impression.

So what do you think is an absolute minimum for a long term peaceful solution to this problem? What do you think that Israel should start working towards and what compromise do you think the Palestinians should offer? Or do you think concessions need to happen from Israel and Israel alone? Or taking it to the other extreme, Hamas to be disbanded etc?
 
So what do you think is an absolute minimum for a long term peaceful solution to this problem? What do you think that Israel should start working towards and what compromise do you think the Palestinians should offer? Or do you think concessions need to happen from Israel and Israel alone? Or taking it to the other extreme, Hamas to be disbanded etc?
I plead ignorance, for the most part.

I have nowhere near the knowledge to answer these questions.
 
Do you find it credible that Israel is currently in a position to accept 1949 borders? They don't give that impression.

No. At least not without a pragmatic Hamas making sacrifices too. Israel withdrawing from the West Bank with only the agreement of the PA could cause major problems. The internal Palestinian differences and a weak Palestinian Authority could leave the West Bank open to a Hamas coup. A Hamas coup could pose a security headache for Israel.
 
We could start with having a more serious response to what happened than a statement that makes it clear they do not entertain the idea that the Israeli armed forces did anything wrong.
Serious question. What did the IDF do wrong?
* At the beginning of this thread, numerous posters see claiming snipers massacred 50-60 innocent Palestinians.

* By the middle of the thread, a few were admitting that some Hamas operatives were mingling with the protestors.

* by now we realize that most casualties were either Hamas soldiers or members os other violent groups looking to cause destruction during Nabka. One such other group is the Fatah’s Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades, which suffered casualties against the IDF

Looking at the complete death toll, and excluding the 8 month old child, (because that’s on another level of fecked up altogether—looks like the child was already seriously sick/wounded, so the family brought the frail child to the protest to add their child.s death to the martyr list. Disgusting!) but if we pay attention to the list of deaths so far, I’m not seeing these “innocents” that others were weeping about earlier in the thread.

One dead innocent is terrible and the world should do everything it can to prevent innocent lives being ended. But from what I can tell, the IDF snipers did their job and protected other innocents, ie women and children inside the border fence.

It really is David v Goliath.
Nope. IDF vs. Hamas and the Martyrs Brigade

“AP” said:
eight of the men killed were members of Hamas, which rules the Gaza Strip. One served in the al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades, and another was affiliated with “global jihad,” it said, apparently referring to one of the Salafist groups in Gaza.

“AP” said:
Earlier on Saturday, Hamas publicly acknowledged that five members of its military wing, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, were among the fatalities.

“AP” said:
The army said that at least one of the Hamas members, Sari Abu Odeh, was part of the group’s elite Nukhba force and that another, Muhammad Abu Amro, served in its tunnel operations.

“AP” said:
The IDF identified one of the two Hamas members who shot at Israeli soldiers on Friday evening and attempted to breach the security fence, before they were shot dead, as 23-year-old Mussa’b al-Saloul.

“AP” said:
The oldest operative identified was Jihad Farina, 35, a company commander in Hamas’s military wing; the youngest was 19-year-old Ahmad Odeh, who served in the terror group’s Shati Battalion, the army said. Hamas claimed those killed were taking part “in popular events side-by-side with their people.”

Last, but not least; a quote countering the claims made by various Caf posters that the ppfotesters we’d completely innocent and the IDF are cowards for using high powered rounds on civilians:
“AP” said:
IDF Spokesman Brig. Gen. Ronen Manelis said on Saturday that all those killed were engaged in violence, adding that Gaza health officials exaggerated the number of those wounded and that several dozen at most were injured by live fire while the rest were merely shaken up by tear gas and other riot dispersal means.

Manelis said on Friday evening that the army had faced “a violent, terrorist demonstration at six points” along the fence. He said the IDF used “pinpoint fire” wherever there were attempts to breach or damage the security fence. “All the fatalities were aged 18-30, several of the fatalities were known to us, and at least two of them were members of Hamas commando forces,” he said.

Maybe this is why myself and a few others waited for the facts before screaming about the situation and the despicable natural of “David vs. Goliath”:wenger:
 
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excluding the 15 month old child, (because that’s on another level of fecked up altogether—looks like the child was already seriously sick/wounded, so 5he family brought the frail child to the protest to add their child.s death to the martyr list. Disgusting!

what is your source for this
 
I just simultaneously saw 3 articles about the same thing.

To a certain degree, the Islamist organization whose militant wing has rained rockets on Israel the past few weeks has the Jewish state to thank for its existence. Hamas launched in 1988 in Gaza at the time of the first intifada, or uprising, with a charter now infamous for its anti-Semitism and its refusal to accept the existence of the Israeli state. But for more than a decade prior, Israeli authorities actively enabled its rise.

At the time, Israel's main enemy was the late Yasser Arafat's Fatah party, which formed the heart of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO). Fatah was secular and cast in the mold of other revolutionary, leftist guerrilla movements waging insurgencies elsewhere in the world during the Cold War. The PLO carried out assassinations and kidnappings and, although recognized by neighboring Arab states, was considered a terrorist organization by Israel; PLO operatives in the occupied territories faced brutal repression at the hands of the Israeli security state.

Meanwhile, the activities of Islamists affiliated with Egypt's banned Muslim Brotherhood were allowed in the open in Gaza — a radical departure from when the Strip was administered by the secular-nationalist Egyptian government of Gamal Abdel Nasser. Egypt lost control of Gaza to Israel after the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, which saw Israel also seize the West Bank. In 1966, Nasser had executed Sayyid Qutb, one of the Brotherhood's leading intellectuals. The Israelis saw Qutb's adherents in the Palestinian territories, including the wheelchair-bound Sheik Ahmed Yassin, as a useful counterweight to Arafat's PLO.

"When I look back at the chain of events I think we made a mistake," one Israeli official who had worked in Gaza in the 1980s said in a 2009 interview with the Wall Street Journal's Andrew Higgins. "But at the time nobody thought about the possible results."

Higgins's article is worth reading in full. He goes on to outline the type of assistance the Israelis initially gave Yassin, whom the PLO at one time deemed a "collaborator," and Gaza's other Islamists:

Israel's military-led administration in Gaza looked favorably on the paraplegic cleric, who set up a wide network of schools, clinics, a library and kindergartens. Sheikh Yassin formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, which was officially recognized by Israel as a charity and then, in 1979, as an association. Israel also endorsed the establishment of the Islamic University of Gaza, which it now regards as a hotbed of militancy. The university was one of the first targets hit by Israeli warplanes in the [2008-9 Operation Cast Lead].

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...l-helped-create-hamas/?utm_term=.20051907b3ed

More detailed articles here and here.

A lot of parallels with India's actions in our many domestic conflicts.
 
what is your source for this

https://www.timesofisrael.com/gazan-doctor-israel-cast-doubts-over-claim-infant-died-from-tear-gas/

Times of Israel said:
Gazan doctor, Israel cast doubts over Hamas claim infant died from tear gas
Health official says 8-month-old had a preexisting medical condition, contradicting Hamas-run ministry, which counted her among 60 Palestinians killed by IDF
The family say they ended up at the protest by a mix-up. Hmmm
 
Let's get this straight here. Achilles mccool is saying that the parents of an 8 month old child who may or may not have had a pre existing condition (which could be almost anything), purposely brought their child to be killed at the March in order to have its name on a list somewhere.

How did these parents plan for their child to be killed? Was it a pre existing condition and they knew she would die down to the minute and so they just decided to let their child breath its last breath in a crowd being shot at by an occupying force instead at home surrounded by family?

Or did the child have a preexisting condition but the parents knew that the Israelis would use deadly force on the crowd and the child would probably die.

Or did the parents of an infant decide to murder their own child and try and pass it off as a murder by the idf.


And in any of these scenarios the question would then be why? Why would they do that? To take the death toll from 59 to 60? To score a propaganda victory that pales in comparison to the propaganda victory Israel scores every time western media reports these events as "clashes" or says "60 Palestinians die" as if they all had the flu


Or is it more likely that a baby was killed as a result of actions taken by one of the most advanced militaries in the world and that spreading these vile racist rumours about dead children in service of an occupying force is pathetic and anyone doing it should be ashamed of themselves
 
While I feel good I've ignored him, I will not forget how he heartlessly said Germany is inviting those anti-semites about the Syrian refugees, many of which are children who don't even know what anti-semite means, I want to clarify a point about the Syrian refugees, the Syrian people don't like living outside their country, I love the US, I love how welcoming and kind the people are there, but when I'm there and in about 2 weeks I start getting homesick, those refugees were exiled and had to leave everything behind, it was not a choice, I will not forget that RC allowed such comment as well with all the love and respect to this site, this isn't freedom of speech, this is plain racism while saying hurtful stuff, that is all.

Come on Redcafe. Step up and ban Fearless. I feel really uncomfortable sharing a forum with him. I’m not the only one.
 
The ignore feature is also an option.
There are ways to bring your point across, eg not everyone agrees with you here and even in this thread people disagree with you but never have your posts come across as being so callous or racist or extreme as his posts. You argue your point without sounding like a bigot. There is a way to argue and his posts are disgraceful. I agree with @syrian_scholes
 
I’ve always said that parallels exist between the respective struggles of the Kurds and Palestinians, the same can be said of Erdogan and Nutty.

It’s why I find it bizarre that a large number of Kurds are vehement supporters of Israel.

Don't many Muslim states oppress the Kurds whilst being vehemently anti Israel?

Genuine question, not clear on this point.
 
Come on Redcafe. Step up and ban Fearless. I feel really uncomfortable sharing a forum with him. I’m not the only one.
I disagree with most of what he's posted but he hasn't broken any rules of the forum as far as I can see. It would be outrageous to ban him because he holds different opinions however indoctrinated they may be.

Be a sad boring life we'd lead if we all agreed endlessly.