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Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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Here’s an article about a potential UK-led grassroots “peace from below” initiative, modeled on the experience of Northern Ireland - https://fathomjournal.org/the-uk-an...or-israeli-palestinian-peace-the-time-is-now/
That's all well and good but the Israeli high court is attempting to expel more families from Sheikh Jarrah. Three/four more in August, I believe. In total, twenty five families and five hundred people at risk of losing their homes to Israeli settlers. Peace is pointless without a substantive end in sight to the apartheid regime which brought the conflict into being.
I hope they haven't left it too late and can manage to confront and work on the casual racism that has been allowed to foster in Israeli society.
Football clubs such as Beitar Jerusalem have been allowed to keep a culture of exclusion and racism for too long. The only thing that will ever work there now is mutual cooperation as part of one nation.
As an example, there are no Palestinian municpal leaders who would write a tweet as framing themselves representatives of people in central Israel. They would speak rather of the Occupied Palestinian territories.
Basically, peace is great if it means both sides now start negotiating an amicable end to the situation which brought them here. That mainly has to do with Israel retreating from its occupation of the West Bank. Without that basic first step I don't see how this gets resolved.
I’m glad the violence will end but similar to what @neverdie says, the underlying apartheid like conditions still exist. Until that is element of society is removed this is like sticking a plaster on a gunshot wound. There needs to be an international intervention (you’d hope the UN can play that role but they’ve proven to be fecking useless) that can hold Israel to account and begin undoing the wrongs of years gone by.
something like - you’ve had your fun and probably got a load of votes and nationalist press. you can get them again soon. Keep up the theft. Cheque is in the mail. Until Israel and america end apartheid then this problem is liable to flare up and down until there’s nothing left of Palestine or there’s an all out war where other nations have to intervene on Palestine’s behalf.
It would be more a long the lines of "you've made your point, now time to wrap it up".
Netanyahu and the Israeli Jewish Nationalists have sold their own long term sovereignty for short term political point scoring.
If Israel had sat down at the negotiating table a few years ago in good faith, they would have been able to get themselves a two state solution which guaranteed a Jewish ethno-state. Instead, they've gone down a road of occupation, settlement and brutalisation.
The only way out of this is a formalised Apartheid, or a one state solution in which Arabs will likely be the majority.
If Israel had sat down at the negotiating table a few years ago in good faith, they would have been able to get themselves a two state solution which guaranteed a Jewish ethno-state. Instead, they've gone down a road of occupation, settlement and brutalisation.
The only way out of this is a formalised Apartheid, or a one state solution in which Arabs will likely be the majority.
Shameless
not only germany btw. the same happened for polish people in the east, hungarians in romania/yugoslavia, bulgarians in romania, greece/turkey before WW2, greece did erhnic cleansing on a mega level. it's not like palestina suffers from a unique destiny.
i am sure there are many more similar examples around the world.
One state-solution with Arab majority will not happen. That would be the end of Israel, and the Jewish people in Israel will rightly not allow it.
I think a continuation of the status quo is the more likely option, rinse and repeat. I also think that the only way that Palestinians are going to get a state is if they withdraw the request for Jerusalem, which they won’t do. However, it is absolutely clear that Israel is not going to give up Jerusalem, and a two-state solution on 1967 borders is as likely to happen as Native Americans getting their own state outside of the US. For any negotiation to have any hope of success, it needs to be start from the position of current territories, not fantasies of the past.
Not necessarily - I think its no coincidence that Bibi was looking like being ousted as leader and there was going to be a colaition supported by Arab parties in power... such a coalition would potentially have an opportunity to draw a line under whats happened and re-engage with a 2 state solution... though I think yes 100% it would genuinley have to be in good faith and they would probably have a relativley small window in which to start the process and get some results .
That said I think there would be a number of steps that would be more difficult now than say 10 years ago... some of the new settlements and I think probably there would need to be new elections in Gaza as well... I dont think its totally off the table but its certainly going to require political will on both sides as no doubt compramises will be need to be made... somebody once told me a good negotiation is one where you both walk away a little unhappy... you got enough to make the deal palitable but you didnt have to give up so much that it crossed your red lines and the other side didnt walk away going a little dance as they had screwed you - probably something similar would have to happen where both sides actually have the will (and the domestic political capital) to give up some things to make a two state solution work.
I do think as well for a 2 state soution to work its time for the USA to step back and not be involved in the negotiations - it needs to be handed off to the UN or another party ... again thats going to require some political will and capital in the states but they ave been at it for 50 years now and as such its probably madness to think that carrying on in the same manner gets a different solution
just to say finally I dont expect a 2 state solution to come around any time soon... but its not totally dead should the political stars align (the right coalition in Israel, Gaza elections electing someody other than Hamas and the USA taking a step back from the negotiations)... so yeah not likley but not impossble
UN is useless for negotiations considering that the big powers that have veto will go for their own interests. In this case, the US will veto anything that Israel doesn’t like, and China plus Russia will do the other way around.
We saw a series of UN-lead negotiations for Kosovo leading to absolutely nothing, and here the situation is far more complex.
As I say it cant be the USA if its going to work ... If not the UN then form a special organisation with multiple stakeholders and nobody having veto rights... but a USA negotiated treaty will almost certainly be focussed around the USA political landscape, election cycles and what they can pass through their elected houses... basically it wont work (just like it has not for 50 years)
Is the ceasefire official? The only way to stop this insanity is paying Israel? That can't keep happening. And I thought China was getting involved. Surely a two state solution is the only answer.
What would be the goal of that special organization?
to facilitate a negotiated peace process
As I say it woud require a political will in the USA to step back from negotiations... it would require them accepting that after 50 years of trying they have not achieved much and that short term political fall out (apac, repulblican shit storm) is worth giving soebody a better chance at the bigger long term picture of a negotiated 2 state solution
Why? Do you have an example in history where a nation/kingdom negotiated a peace process out of altruism?
Just because something has not been done before does not mean it should not be tried... plus i think peace in the middle east is not really an altruastic outcome - certainly from a humanist perspective its one that i would like to think all right minded people have a vested interest in
A two-state solution on what borders? That is the important question considering that Israel and Palestine have different ideas on what the borders should be.
I don’t think that China has any power in that region yet, and they cannot project their military strength anywhere outside of China.
But there is a reason why you can't give me an example, which is my point. The way you are putting it, you make it sound like other nations are altruistics and humanist, they are neither of these things, particularly the other permanent members of the UN security council who are the only ones that have the power to "impose" peace. The other powerful nations aren't all that better, one of them has massacred more than a 100k people in Yemen and we are yet to hear something about it from political leaders across the world.
And I know that what I'm suggesting is grim and not fun to hear but there is no point pointing the finger at the US and act as if the rest was even marginally better.
Are they any different from the Israeli gov? Because it is clear you are biased and pro Zionist if you think they are.
Thanks for what? for letting them slaughter tens of children. No fecking thanks to him.
I see the conversation is back to any Palestinians fighting back are terrorists.
Elvis is being impartial.
Say what?
Not sure anybody has said that.
The term terrorism is subject to much debate around its meaning and who it should apply to. I generally wouldn’t label states as terrorist, as I (rightly or wrongly) would reserve the term for non state actors committing acts of terror.
Depending on your views and which side takes your fancy most observers will tend to believe that an accepted definition of terrorism can't be agreed upon. The saying one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter comes up regularly in these debates. Obviously, there is a red line in my opinion for those to be definitely called terrorists who deliberately attack civilians.
Anyway, the founding fathers of Israel resorted to terrorism. The Zionist organisation Irgun was described as a terrorist organisation by the United Nations, British, and United States governments. The bombing by the Zionist terrorist group of British headquarters at the King David Hotel killed 91 people was one of the most lethal terrorist attacks of the 20th century and was one of the factors the British left. Terrorism in parts helped form Israel.
Over the last few decades, Mandela was called a terrorist, Modi was barred from entering the UK, EU and USA whilst presiding in Gujarat during the massacre of over 1000 Muslims and is now the Prime Minister of India.
Yes I think they are different, because if the roles were reversed I have no doubt that Hamas would flatten Israel within a couple of hours - the same way Israel could do it to Gaza. If you think Hamas and the Israeli gov are the same then you are biased and anti Zionist - see, it works both ways.
Edit: just to add, most people in this thread are biased and pro / anti Zionist. It's very naive to think people haven't picked a side and aren't entrenched in their view. It's the reason why there is no sign of peace.
I don’t disagree with any of what you say Sults (though my lecturer at university said if we used the term ‘one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter’ in our assignments then it would be an instant fail
)Hope you and the family had a nice Eid.
Crying anti-semitism in 3...2...1...
Are we that naive to accept the views of Western governments always have to be correct and to take precedent over other opinions? I have seen the very enlightened nations change their minds on definitions of terrorists when it suits their narrative and agendas.