Israel - Iran and regional players | Please post respectfully and stay on topic

AfonsoAlves said:
Given a school got blown up, I'm not sure that they were.

On the other side of the argument, Iranian ballistic missiles aren't exactly top notch in terms of guidance and sensors, so a slight miscalculation on trajectory could cause it to misshoot by hundreds of meters.
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That was a miscalculation I assume. Of course I have no idea of knowing but it just seems that the majority of the missiles landed in the middle of a desert the US have said that they only targeted military bases.

Iran also don't want a war despite what Bibi spouts daily. Israel have bombed Iran, bombed an Iranian diplomatic building in Syria, bombed Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Gaza, Killed high ranking Iranian generals, killed Haniyeh and NasrAllah and Iran have done nothing except send 200 missiles into the middle of a secluded Israeli desert....
 
the_cliff said:
Well Iran did say they aren't targeting any densely populated areas and are strictly targeting military bases. Seems them crazy Iranians care more about human life than the light of all humanity Israel.
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They dont care about human life. They care about the retaliation. If 10 missiles would fall in a densely populated area killing 50 civilians, israel would flaten a couple or iranian areas (they might still do)

Iran regime is not as cruel as israelian regime because they cant
 
4bars said:
They dont care about human life. They care about the retaliation. If 10 missiles would fall in a densely populated area killing 50 civilians, israel would flaten a couple or iranian areas (they might still do)

Iran regime is not as cruel as israelian regime because they cant
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Yup. Pretty much. No superpower backing them. Only have to look at their internal governing to see if they care about human lives.
 
The Corinthian said:
The latest I heard it’s now 14 of these Israeli state terrorists killed which is great news.
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Should be careful of this. I'm about as least as supportive as it gets for this Israel and various versions of it in the past, but I cannot bring myself to revel in the death of people. The whole thing is a fecking disaster.
 
neverdie said:
Should be careful of this. I'm about as least as supportive as it gets for this Israel and various versions of it in the past, but I cannot bring myself to revel in the death of people. The whole thing is a fecking disaster.
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Normally I would agree, but when you are an aggressive invading force I have the 'you had it coming' type of attitude. Same with the Russians in Ukraine.
 
2mufc0 said:
Normally I would agree, but when you are an aggressive invading force I have the 'you had it coming' type of attitude. Same with the Russians in Ukraine.
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The unfortunate part is like the IDF, Russia is also heavily made up of conscripts who do not want to be there.

I hate the principal of conscription for this very reason, outside the most dire of national security concerns.
 
neverdie said:
Should be careful of this. I'm about as least as supportive as it gets for this Israel and various versions of it in the past, but I cannot bring myself to revel in the death of people. The whole thing is a fecking disaster.
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I’ve seen too many Palestinian kids butchered, maimed and traumatised over the last year to have any shred of sympathy for these rancid Israeli army cnuts. feck them.
 
A fecking hospital in Lebanon...really. Now all hospitals host Hezbollah also?
 
AfonsoAlves said:
The unfortunate part is like the IDF, Russia is also heavily made up of conscripts who do not want to be there.

I hate the principal of conscription for this very reason, outside the most dire of national security concerns.
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I thought i read the initial incursions were supposed to be carried out by special ops/veteran types?

Though I suppose it's not really out of character for the terrorist army to send in conscript kids to get butchered first.
 
The Corinthian said:
I’ve seen too many Palestinian kids butchered, maimed and traumatised over the last year to have any shred of sympathy for these rancid Israeli army cnuts. feck them.
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Got it so you believe in monoliths. People like you then say Hamas is the same as Palestinian civilians. Something I don’t agree with
 
MDFC Manager said:
I thought i read the initial incursions were supposed to be carried out by special ops/veteran types?

Though I suppose it's not really out of character for the terrorist army to send in conscript kids to get butchered first.
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Mostly, but some conscripts were used and Putin had to make a public apology. As strong as his control is, he is not totally immune from public opinion and conscripts are a touchy subject as the sons of the Russian middle class are in there.

Probably didn’t think they’d see combat cos ‘Kyiv in 3 days’ or something.
 
The failed Israeli tactical operation in Southern Lebanon was carried out by the special forces.
 
Simbo said:
Mostly, but some conscripts were used and Putin had to make a public apology. As strong as his control is, he is not totally immune from public opinion and conscripts are a touchy subject as the sons of the Russian middle class are in there.

Probably didn’t think they’d see combat cos ‘Kyiv in 3 days’ or something.
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Thanks, I don't know too much about the Russia Ukraine war and I was actually talking about the IDF incursion into Lebanon
 
TheRedHearted said:
Got it so you believe in monoliths. People like you then say Hamas is the same as Palestinian civilians. Something I don’t agree with
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I don't understand this analogy. A better one would be to judge Hamas harshly based on the worst excesses of the Oct 7th attacks which were only done by some Hamas members; hardly unreasonable.
 
africanspur said:
Israel doesn't break ceasefires. It only defends itself against existential threats with pinpoint strikes.
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On hospitals, nurseries, schools and UN convoys carrying aid.
 
MDFC Manager said:
Though I suppose it's not really out of character for the terrorist army to send in conscript kids to get butchered first.
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The eight IDF soldiers killed were between 21 to 23, and the conscription age is 18. So they weren't some kids who were just enlisted. They had plenty of experience and training.

They were hardly evil. They probably believed in the caused they were sent to Lebanon for, but it's hard not to when you grow up here and also after several years in the military. Those are very young people who lost their lives, before really getting a chance to live them, joining countless others in the past year.
 
Amir said:
The eight IDF soldiers killed were between 21 to 23, and the conscription age is 18. So they weren't some kids who were just enlisted. They had plenty of experience and training.

They were hardly evil. They probably believed in the caused they were sent to Lebanon for, but it's hard not to when you grow up here and also after several years in the military. Those are very young people who lost their lives, before really getting a chance to live them, joining countless others in the past year.
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You're probably not wrong here but it's a shame this sort of nuance is only ever allowed to be used for Israelis. I think you could say the exact same thing about Hamas and Hezbollah members.
 
neverdie said:
The irony of this joke is lost on me. If there is any.
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You clearly haven't been following the announcements made by various Israeli politicians etc in western media over the past year.
 
Mogget said:
You're probably not wrong here but it's a shame this sort of nuance is only ever allowed to be used for Israelis. I think you could say the exact same thing about Hamas and Hezbollah members.
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Hezbollah only exists at all because of Israels invasion and 18 year occupation of Lebanon after 1982. Remove the PLO, something more violent appears.

It would be the same here. Does anyone think if hezbollah were wiped out, the people left would just accept random bombings and threats of invasion whenever israelis feel like it?

You cannot bomb people into accepting subjugation. The only thing you do is make them more violent in their response. You can same the same thing about hamas. Hamas is not the instigator, it is a response. Remove it, and the one that comes after will be worse.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
I never was firmly "pro-Israel", more so in the fact that I had worked with the IDF before, have a few Israeli friends, and when Oct 7th began I had a lot of sympathy for them and could understand why their initial actions were done the way they were.
The most I've ever come to "defending" Israel is more along the technicality lines, to make sure that our discourse is as accurate as possible: For example, the claim that Israel was using banned white-phosphorus munitions was discussed on here and I argued that they were not war crimes.
I also do the same for Ukraine-Russia war, and have often criticized Ukraine and the pro-AFU propoganda that is spewed on the internet despite being the most pro-Ukraine person on here.

What changed?

1. Unrelentless bombing of civilians that went way beyond the norms of targeted strikes.
2. The conduct of the IDF and their complete disregard for life.
3. The piling of massacres after massacres.

I've spent a lot of time in the Middle East, and have friends in Syria and Lebanon. Recently, quite a few of them have been in the vicinity of Israeli bombs and they live in regions that are residential, have no connection to any "Terror org" and it just seems like Israel is just bombing for the sake of bombing. Last night was an example.

All this culminated in me thinking that there needs to be a systemic governmental change in Israel. And possibly an enforced cultural change.
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Sorry it's taken me a couple of days but I appreciate your reply and double so your technical points that are indeed an important perspective to these discussions. I think perhaps in my own case I've been so incensed following massacres that I'd have interpreted anyone raising technical questions as appearing reluctant to clearly see that a massacre is a massacre, or that disregard for human life is simply that, but it does enhance the wider discussion so I totally appreciate that.

Yeah I think that due to Israel's clearly strong intel and high-accuracy targeting, when people read of some random town they've never heard of being bombed in whatever Middle Eastern country, they assume it must be legitimate or targeting a terror organisation, but sometimes intel is wrong, and sometimes the purpose of an attack is to instil an omnipresent sense of terror.

I agree it must change, though governmental change seems far from enough, I was reading about an Israeli airstrike on an Egyptian school in the 70s which killed 46 kids, PM Dayan's explanation was verbatim that if any children were killed, it was because their classrooms were in a military structure. If that's what a centre-left leadership was saying 50 years ago, then the idea of a post-Netanyahu leadership providing dramatic change doesn't seem so encouraging.
 
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