ISIS in Iraq and Syria

3 people from my high school (in Canada), around 18-22 age group, were converted in a mosque here in London, Ontario - one was greek orthodox, one was Asian-Christian, and the other was a non-practicing muslim. 2 years ago, they moved to the middle east, joined Al-Qaeda, and suicide bombed an oil refinery, killing hundreds. Kids, from a nice Canadian neighbourhood. That is shocking. But they are not the rule, they are an exception. In a populace of hundreds of thousands here less than a percentile has decided this is the right action.
 
Relevated said:
Lol I didn't say the west is equal to Isis and if I did then I got caught up in the moment but what I mean is that the murder of a Muslim doesn't justify the death of a non muslim and vice versa
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So what do you propose is done regarding the members of ISIS? Is it their right to seek terror, destruction, and death to people they don't agree with? I propose we don't let them do that, obviously.
 
Rykker_4united said:
So what do you propose is done regarding the members of ISIS? Is it their right to seek terror, destruction, and death to people they don't agree with? I propose we don't let them do that, obviously.
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No of course we shouldn't let them kill innocent people just because they differ in beliefs.
 
Relevated said:
Let me try to explain this as best I can, it might make little sense but yeah. Basically, some Muslims do not cherish/value comfortable lives, they obviously enjoy the privileges they get in european countries but they are in no need for them. There is emphasis on the sunnah of the prophet and some Muslims will even go back to dates and water if thats what they had to go through. Muslims have a real problem in the sense that there is so much corruption, disunity, betrayal etc within their own 'ummah' and they cant bare the fact that they're incapable of doing anything. Islam teaches them unity, brotherhood etc. Muslims, as they will tell you themselves, have become dishonoured and they hate that. They hate it when they see another Muslim dying or getting abused in any part of the world and this is where ISIS comes into play.

Some Muslims want to be very actively involved in bringing an 'Islamic golden era' back into play. They think with their emotion a lot and when ISIS releases these well done promotional materials then it gets to their head. They finally have a state! The caliphate is back! But wait, they're in their comfortable homes amongst disbelievers? but why? They want to be involved and finally protect other Muslims and they are willing to do anything to achieve that target/goal. They want to make Islam the greatest thing for them in the world and the death of a martyr in Islam is the greatest of deaths. I could go on and on about it but there is too much to say. You have to be in their boots.
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@Pogue Mahone if that answers even a tiny bit of your question but yeah, these are the kinds of guys who are driven to ISIS and leave everything behind.
 
Relevated said:
I've been meaning to quote you in the last 20 mins but basically earlier you asked who the isis targets with their recruitment and I addressed a bit of it yesterday. I'll bring the post up when I'm on my laptop. These guys know exactly what they're doing and have planned every little thing in order to attract anyone they can.
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That's what I'm assuming. I just find it really depressing that anyone, anywhere, could be feeling so disenfranchised as to find their hate-filled rhetoric (and vile online imagery) in any way compelling. Whatever happened to the principles of peace, love and compassion that any moderate muslim would tell you is integral to their religion?
 
Relevated said:
No of course we shouldn't let them kill innocent people just because they differ in beliefs.
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Out of curiosity, are you Muslim, Christian, or do you not believe in A god or religion? I've never really spoken with you on the cafe so not entirely sure.
 
Rykker_4united said:
Some here are trying to justify the atrocities of these "Islamic states" by saying, "well African Christians and buddhists and stuff do it too like." Its not ok for anyone to do it. Can you imagine if we didn't have any of these religions anymore? The world would be a better place.
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Yep.

Hitler wouldn't have killed all those Jews; Stalin wouldn't have murdered millions of his own people; Mao wouldn't have been responsible for the death of 30M Chinese.

But they were all atheists, weren't they? Very puzzling.
 
Will Absolute said:
Yep.

Hitler wouldn't have killed all those Jews; Stalin wouldn't have murdered millions of his own people; Mao wouldn't have been responsible for the death of 30M Chinese.

But they were all atheists, weren't they? Very puzzling.
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We're talking present day, not 1940. Obviously there are exceptions where people kill without religious purpose, but you can't deny that religion has been a catalyst for mass murder for thousands of years now.
 
Relevated said:
Muslim
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Cheers. My roommate is a practicing muslim and he is a great person. I know many muslims who are very kind, caring people. That is why it shocks me so much that the religion of Islam can be interpreted so wildly, from ISIS to everyday folk. But I guess thats how religion is - open to interpretation.
 
Rykker_4united said:
We're talking present day, not 1940. Obviously there are exceptions where people kill without religious purpose, but you can't deny that religion has been a catalyst for mass murder for thousands of years now.
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Hard to know whether it's a catalyst or a convenient flag for the power hungry to wage war behind. With the right rhetoric, it does seem possible to get the masses behind you even if you're not promising them rewards in the afterlife.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Hard to know whether it's a catalyst or a convenient flag for the power hungry to wage war behind. With the right rhetoric, it does seem possible to get the masses behind you even if you're not promising them rewards in the afterlife.
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Nazi Germany and modern terrorist organizations are an entirely different animal imo. I'd wager that a lot of Nazi foot soldiers didn't agree with what they were doing but felt obligated or forced to fight for Nazi Germany. They probably, for the most part, fought our of fear. These groups developing in the middle east seem to genuinely detest everyone who isn't them and the people who join them do so willingly.
 
Rykker_4united said:
Nazi Germany and modern terrorist organizations are an entirely different animal imo. I'd wager that a lot of Nazi foot soldiers didn't agree with what they were doing but felt obligated or forced to fight for Nazi Germany. They probably, for the most part, fought our of fear. These groups developing in the middle east seem to genuinely detest everyone who isn't them and the people who join them do so willingly.
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This is interesting. Some fighters go over to these groups and instantly regret it however their leaders take away their passports and threaten to publish details online. They'd have nowhere to return, their family would be monitored closely presumably and also they're left to fight against their will.

Whats your opinion on the ISISMediaBlackout trend on twitter?
 
Relevated said:
This is interesting. Some fighters go over to these groups and instantly regret it however their leaders take away their passports and threaten to publish details online. They'd have nowhere to return, their family would be monitored closely presumably and also they're left to fight against their will.

Whats your opinion on the ISISMediaBlackout trend on twitter?
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I hadn't heard about that passport removal and threatening. Interesting.

I think its better that we know what is going on there, as grotesque as it may be. It would be better to understand and fully appreciate the atrocities being committed there than to be ignorant and pretend it'll go away.
 
Amongst all the chaos, USA need to de list the PKK and stop labelling them as a terrorist organisation. They have been a key reason for the defence and liberation of many towns and areas in Iraqi Kurdistan.

They are also the main group that reached people on the mountains, provided them with a safe route off the mountain and also fought off ISIS in the surrounding areas, all with coordinated American air strikes.

More good news: YPG killed 140 ISIS members in the past 3 days, 15 martyrs. The fighting took place in the Jazza areas, a key area for the movement of civilians off the mountains and into Rojava. ISIS have been trying to cut off access through these attacks but have been pushed back.
 
Will Absolute said:
Yep.

Hitler wouldn't have killed all those Jews; Stalin wouldn't have murdered millions of his own people; Mao wouldn't have been responsible for the death of 30M Chinese.

But they were all atheists, weren't they? Very puzzling.
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Nazi Germany can be described as an extension of the conservative Catholic right and Hitler and most of the senior Nazis were Roman Catholics. In fact, the holocaust was the culmination of centuries of official Catholic anti-semitism.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Hard to know whether it's a catalyst or a convenient flag for the power hungry to wage war behind. With the right rhetoric, it does seem possible to get the masses behind you even if you're not promising them rewards in the afterlife.
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It is both in my opinion.

It's certainly possible to use other ideologies rooted in, say, nationalism, no question about that, but nobody seems to deny that. You won't hear anyone offer up the same excuses in defense of Nazism as they do when they defend religion. And just imagine what an incredible motivation it is to believe that your actions - however atrocious - will earn you a reward in the afterlife, and that you have god on your side. It's an extraordinarily powerful idea.

I will happily concede that many of the worst crimes in history had nothing to do with religion per se (Stalin, Mao, Khmer Rogue etc.). The Holocaust on the other hand is inseparable from European anti-semitism deeply rooted in Christian teaching throughout the centuries, even though I doubt Hitler was particularly religious himself.
 
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We should just have like a huge royal rumble with all the world leaders. They would all fight to death and the victor would go on and rule. It would solve a lot of problems.
 
rednev said:
Nazi Germany can be described as an extension of the conservative Catholic right and Hitler and most of the senior Nazis were Roman Catholics. In fact, the holocaust was the culmination of centuries of official Catholic anti-semitism.
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Utter nonsense. The birth of some Nazis as nominal Christians is irrelevant. Hitler was a well-documented atheist. The Nazis regarded the Catholic Church as an enemy - a natural opponent of their true religion - aggressive German nationalism and racial supremacism.
 
Rykker_4united said:
More often the latter unfortunately.
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How how you come to that conclusion?

There are several Billion religious and God loving folk out there in the world who are very peaceful and work selflessly to make others lives better. Thankfully the baddies are only small minority. People will always find a reason with or without religion to make wars, and kill.
 
Sultan said:
How how you come to that conclusion?

There are several Billion religious and God loving folk out there in the world who are very peaceful and work selflessly to make others lives better. Thankfully the baddies are only small minority. People will always find a reason with or without religion to make wars, and kill.
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You're right, I revisited that thought a minute ago and decided that wasn't entirely true. But the small minority seems to hold most of the power and spotlight.
 
rednev said:
Nazi Germany can be described as an extension of the conservative Catholic right and Hitler and most of the senior Nazis were Roman Catholics. In fact, the holocaust was the culmination of centuries of official Catholic anti-semitism.
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I understand you anti religious stance. However, you can come up with better reasons for your dislike of religion than this post.
 
JohnDoe said:
It is both in my opinion.

It's certainly possible to use other ideologies rooted in, say, nationalism, no question about that, but nobody seems to deny that. You won't hear anyone offer up the same excuses in defense of Nazism as they do when they defend religion. And just imagine what an incredible motivation it is to believe that your actions - however atrocious - will earn you a reward in the afterlife, and that you have god on your side. It's an extraordinarily powerful idea.

I will happily concede that many of the worst crimes in history had nothing to do with religion per se (Stalin, Mao, Khmer Rogue etc.). The Holocaust on the other hand is inseparable from European anti-semitism deeply rooted in Christian teaching throughout the centuries, even though I doubt Hitler was particularly religious himself.
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The Jews were an unpopular, standoffish minority across Europe during the middle ages. By far the most brutal assaults on them and their communities were carried out by mobs inspired by standard human prejudice against societal outsiders. Secular rulers sometimes provoked such attacks and, more rarely, made half-hearted attempts to protect Jewish communities. Anti-Jewish violence often functioned as a safety valve for social discontent. Blame the Jews when things go wrong.

None of this had much to do with religion. In fact, the Catholic Church not infrequently sought to mitigate the barbarity of the persecution, despite their undeniable suspicion of the Jewish faith.
 
Will Absolute said:
Utter nonsense. The birth of some Nazis as nominal Christians is irrelevant. Hitler was a well-documented atheist. The Nazis regarded the Catholic Church as an enemy - a natural opponent of their true religion - aggressive German nationalism and racial supremacism.
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Hitler was not a well documented atheist. What he actually believed is a point of contention, but publicly he was a Roman Catholic and being a model (German) catholic was central to the Nazi's social ideals. Christian symbolism was everywhere and Nazi propaganda used God and religion to legitimise the regime...'God on our side', as the belt buckles of Nazi soldiers read. Conversely, atheism and things associated with it were suppressed both in the Party and in wider society....Darwinism wasn't allowed to be taught in schools and the great atheist thinkers of Germany were ostracised and persecuted.

You can even go back to Mein Kampf and see how Hitler referred to doing 'God's work'.

Sultan said:
I understand you anti religious stance. However, you can come up with better reasons for your dislike of religion than this post.
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I wouldn't normally use it as part of my argument against religion, because obviously the rise of Nazism was intertwined with (and complicated by) non-religious political issues and various social and economic phenomena. But I think it is important to dispel the myth that Nazi Germany was atheistic.
 
rednev said:
Hitler was not a well documented atheist. What he actually believed is a point of contention, but publicly he was a Roman Catholic and being a model (German) catholic was central to the Nazi's social ideals. Christian symbolism was everywhere and Nazi propaganda used God and religion to legitimise the regime...'God on our side', as the belt buckles of Nazi soldiers read. Conversely, atheism and things associated with it were suppressed both in the Party and in wider society....Darwinism wasn't allowed to be taught in schools and the great atheist thinkers of Germany were ostracised and persecuted.

You can even go back to Mein Kampf and see how Hitler referred to doing 'God's work'.



I wouldn't normally use it as part of my argument against religion, because obviously the rise of Nazism was intertwined with (and complicated by) non-religious political issues and various social and economic phenomena. But I think it is important to dispel the myth that Nazi Germany was atheistic.
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From that its pretty clear that Hitler (like other world leaders who sought destruction of others) managed to use religion on occasion as a tool to justify his atrocities. "God's work" and the like.
 
rednev said:
You can even go back to Mein Kampf and see how Hitler referred to doing 'God's work'.
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More fool us believing every word he wrote in Mein Kampf.

Killing innocents is Gods work?

That's perverted and what normal people would refer to anyone with that mentality as psychopathic.
 
Sultan said:
More fool us believing every word he wrote in Mein Kampf.

Killing innocents is Gods work?

That's perverted and what normal people would refer to anyone with that mentality as psychopathic.
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An awful lot of people have claimed it in history, so...
 
Kaos said:
To be fair, what's happening in Iraq is a "anyone but batshit insane Sunni radical" holocaust. My entire family would be butchered if they were caught too. Heck the vast majority of victims have been Muslims.
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So how do they reconcile killing fellow Muslims whilst also referring to other Muslims as "brothers". I have a problem understanding that, just as I have a problem understanding why they think Allah would advocate killing other Muslims, or other people of any religion for that matter.
 
In the video they say there is no God only Allah but also say God willing, and thanks to God. Does somewhere care to elaborate on that? I will be honest that i'm ignorant to the meaning of this.
 
Sultan said:
More fool us believing every word he wrote in Mein Kampf.

Killing innocents is Gods work?

That's perverted and what normal people would refer to anyone with that mentality as psychopathic.
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Catholic armies butchered hundreds of thousands of people (from pagans in Northern Europe to Muslims and Jews in the Middle East) over the centuries in the name of their God and with the authority of his so called 'representative on Earth' the Pope. Mass murder in God's name is an important part of the history of the Roman Catholic church, and there's no getting away from that.
 
Will Absolute said:
Utter nonsense. The birth of some Nazis as nominal Christians is irrelevant. Hitler was a well-documented atheist. The Nazis regarded the Catholic Church as an enemy - a natural opponent of their true religion - aggressive German nationalism and racial supremacism.
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It's besides the point in any case. None of those killings were made in the name of Atheism or following any "Atheist doctrine" or book.
 
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