Bang on, I think people tend to forget this when they see a big name, we could do with CDM more than him, Iv said it before I'd take casemiro over him at the moment, we've already got enough players in midfield to make the magic happen, now we need a rock to lock it up.
Isco
- Thread starter Bwuk
- Start date
Here we go again. He's not a #10, though he can play there. He plays the most similar to Iniesta.
I thought he could play as a deep lying playmaker? He isn't particularly fast for a #10 is he?
This would be a debatable signing but Isco is not a #10 or a luxury player, he works hard for the team, he has just become disillusioned as no matter how well he plays he wont be a starter, that was proven back under Ancelotti where he had a great run and was dumped immediately when one of the big names returned.
I think a lot depends on how Jose is envisioning the make-up of the midfield going forward, does he see Ander developing into his ideal #6? Does he see Micki mainly playing on the RW? If the answer to those 2 questions is yes then I can see why he'd want Isco.
I think a lot depends on how Jose is envisioning the make-up of the midfield going forward, does he see Ander developing into his ideal #6? Does he see Micki mainly playing on the RW? If the answer to those 2 questions is yes then I can see why he'd want Isco.
He is still the most attacking midfielder however you setup the midfield.
Pogba should be that player for us and that's why i see no place for Isco here.
He's been playing as a #8 since Ancelotti was manager, with the odd appearance on the wing. Last season in Zidane's 4-3-3 he was a #8, the season vid below is full of him playing from a proper midfield position, not as a #10.
Pogba is perfect as a box to box midfielder, there's no reason to use him as the most attacking midfielder. He is very useful from a defensive view point, he just shouldn't be a holding mid. Just because he isn't that doesn't mean he should play on the other extreme. Box to box he can do it all for us and he would be at his best IMO. A proper holding mid behind him, and then the other player has to be a more creative type for me. If you put Pogba in a midfield 3 with 2 more defensive players around him, it lacks creativity and would be too cautious. One defensive/holding mid, and one creative play maker would give it the perfect balance around Pogba.
We need both a holding midfielder and the creative play maker next to Pogba. Mata can play there, but Mourinho won't use him there as first choice long term because of his lack of mobility and the biggest issue is just not being able to move with the ball really. Isco brings the creativity that Mata does while being able to drift past players effortlessly in the way Iniesta/Silva do.
The other option for us is Mkhitaryan playing there, but then we also need a right winger. So why not sign Isco for what wouldn't be too much more then 30m considering he is out of favor, and use Mkhitaryan out wide. He is a quality player and would compliment the others perfectly. It's not like signing him would mean we won't sign a holding mid anyway. We need both and I'm sure we'll get both, but Isco we can get now in January.
Agree with all of this. Would be a good signing in January. We could do with a few more attacking options
Watching the above video makes me think he could fulfil a midfield role similar to what Silva is doing at the moment with City.
Mata came to us as the best player in a terrific Chelsea side and as a top class 10 in the league. Mhki came to us after a terrific season in the Bundesliga with ridiculous numbers in both goals and assists. One of the best player in the Bundesliga last year. These 2 guys came to us with already proven pedigree at their respective former club and light up in the number 10/inverted winger role.
Now here we have Isco, a bench warmer at Real Madrid who hardly get game times, has yet to prove anything, not that he could given he doesn't even get to play that much. Unsurprisingly though the Caf are singing rave about this guy calling him world class and such and wanting him as another 10(when we currently have way too many of them and 2 of them came in to us from their previous clubs with far better performances and season than Isco has ever managed).
I'm sitting here reading this thread, scratching my head and wondering where on earth do people get this nonsense that Isco is world class or is needed to reinforce us? Then I remember he is playing(warming the bench to be more accurate) for Real Madrid therefore he is world class by default. Typical Caf.
Now here we have Isco, a bench warmer at Real Madrid who hardly get game times, has yet to prove anything, not that he could given he doesn't even get to play that much. Unsurprisingly though the Caf are singing rave about this guy calling him world class and such and wanting him as another 10(when we currently have way too many of them and 2 of them came in to us from their previous clubs with far better performances and season than Isco has ever managed).
I'm sitting here reading this thread, scratching my head and wondering where on earth do people get this nonsense that Isco is world class or is needed to reinforce us? Then I remember he is playing(warming the bench to be more accurate) for Real Madrid therefore he is world class by default. Typical Caf.
No reason why Pogba couldn't be a legitimate B2B, while Isco can play the controlling role either as an 8 or 6.
Don't let the video fool you though. Small, Spanish player with lots of technique? Definitely a 10
Or maybe because he was world class at Malaga and is a standout whenever he plays for Spain? You're right though, the whole world doesn't revolve around Madrid.
If we had a pure CDM (like City do with Fernandinho), I could see this working:
---------------Ibra
Martial---------------------------Mkhi
-----Pogba----------------Isco
--------------CDM
But it still seems to offer little protection in midfield, which would get exposed. But as others are saying, we should be targeting a top class midfielder (of the ilk of Veratti) and a right back. Spending more money on attacking players when the squad is bursting at the seams with them, and youngsters like Angel Gomes hopefully pushing on, just seems like a waste (especially given our transfer spending since Fergie retired).
---------------Ibra
Martial---------------------------Mkhi
-----Pogba----------------Isco
--------------CDM
But it still seems to offer little protection in midfield, which would get exposed. But as others are saying, we should be targeting a top class midfielder (of the ilk of Veratti) and a right back. Spending more money on attacking players when the squad is bursting at the seams with them, and youngsters like Angel Gomes hopefully pushing on, just seems like a waste (especially given our transfer spending since Fergie retired).
People need to stop name dropping Veratti, it isn't ever happening. Pogba is also good at the defensive aspect of the game, having him alongside Isco with a pure DM certainly would work. Not to add, Isco is hardworking and would put in a shift defensively too.
He's become quite a ballhog. Would rather keep Mata for now.
No he wasn't world class at Malaga
He's never been one. He was a top player with prospect to improve further and maybe become WC but that's about it.
I mean he's never even had seasons comparable to Mata's Chelsea or Mkhi Dortmund last year, yet I doubt you've ever called neither world class once.
Pogba is creative though, he was tied with Pjanic for most assists last year in the Serie A. We also have Mkhitaryan who is a great assist maker.
We don't exactly need creativity with this squad.
Pogba works defensively, but we would lack bite with Isco and Pogba as the CM's.
I just can't see it working out.
Mkhitaryan was bought to be the right winger I think and he suits Mourinho's system perfectly for that. He played for Dortmund on the right with license to drift inside and that's how Mourinho likes his wide players to play. Mata on the other hand doesn't suit Mourinho because of his lack of mobility, and while he is an effective player, he won't be a long term starter option because of his limitations. Yes he can have great games on occasion, but he'll always be a level below the likes of Silva/Ozil/De Bruyne/etc because he can't run with the ball and drift past players. Isco on the other hand is exactly that type and has huge potential, just needs the stage to fulfill that potential, as he is already a very good player. He has shown really good form for Madrid before, but it's tough to get in when they have Modric/Kroos/Ronaldo/Bale playing in the 4 around the striker, in front of a holding mid. Even having James Rodriguez on the bench to compete with. There is a perfect spot open in our team for him, next to Pogba, so he would easily slot in there. Having someone like him in the middle for us would be perfect for our attack, just like how Silva was for City since he signed for them. Very similar type players, and will let us have a nicely balanced midfield 3 (or the 2 more advanced ones, as we still need to sign a holding midfielder).
You are saying warming the bench at Real Madrid like it's a huge criticism and a reason not to sign him, but what were Thiago, Fabregas, Alexis Sanchez at Barcelona before they left? All squad players, but players who are world class players and just need the games to show it (fabregas is now like Rooney of course and has declined, but that doesn't change what he was). James Rodriguez is also a brilliant player. Just because a player can't get in a team who has a midfield that has literally the 2 best creative and controlling midfielders in the world, doesn't mean he isn't a brilliant player himself.
Also just look at our possible team with him:
Ibrahimovic
Martial Pogba Isco Mkhitaryan
Carrick/Herrera
Without him if we put Mata in his position, it just isn't as balanced and isn't a viable option against the best teams because of Mata's lack of mobility. Yes he works hard and runs a lot, but that doesn't mean he can play in a midfield 3 like Isco can. I would want to see Mkhitaryan there, but then we need to sign a right winger and it's not like there are many of those around. Mkhitaryan is equally good on the right, so Isco coming in the middle would be a very attainable but potentially world class option.Martial Pogba Isco Mkhitaryan
Carrick/Herrera
No he wasn't world class at Malaga
He's never been one. He was a top player with prospect to improve further and maybe become WC but that's about it.
I mean he's never even had seasons comparable to Mata's Chelsea or Mkhi Dortmund last year, yet I doubt you've ever called neither world class once.
If he wasn't world class at Malaga, neither was Mata at Chelsea.
He wasn't just a prospect either, he was already hailed as the next great Spanish midfielder after the Xaviesta era.
Pogba and Isco in front of a holding midfielder though. It's not just those 2. If we put someone like Schneiderlin or Kante or whoever else people wanted next to Pogba, it would just be too defensive of a midfield and not creative enough. Also I know Pogba is creative, same with Mkhitaryan. Is there a reason why we should limit that to just those 2? Look at Real Madrid. They have Modric and Kroos in midfield ahead of a holding mid, behind Ronaldo, Bale and Benzema. Bayern with Guardiola played with Thiago, Muller in the middle pretty often, Robben and Costa out wide, Lewa up top in front of Xabi Alonso holding. Loads of creativity. Barca have Iniesta, Rakitic, Neymar, Messi, Suarez in front of Busquets. City have De Bruyne, Silva, Aguero, Sterling, Nolito (or Gundogan in there) all in front of Fernandinho. Arsenal too, Cazorla, Ozil, Sanchez, Iwobi, Walcott all in front of Coquelin or Xhaka. All the best teams these days use 2 creative players in the middle in front of a holding mid, behind a quality front 3. Isco would let us play in the exact same way and give us quality all over. If you put a defensive player next to Pogba then suddenly it's just a lot more negative and restricting to our attack.
Given the way we do transfers now, targeting the biggest and the best, would you be surprised if we did go for him? We even tried to Neymar and landed Pogba (when most doubted it). The fact is I can see us targeting yet more big players in the coming seasons, and Veratti would be on any list of midfielders Mou comes up with, given how he single-handedly out-classed his Chelsea team when PSG knocked them out of the CL.
Don't want as long as I've still got hopes for Pereira. Looking good at Granada from what I've heard.
It has nothing to do with if we want him or not, I don't doubt we will. PSG would simply laugh at any offer we could offer though, they're swimming in cash. Unless they no longer wanted him, he wouldn't be available at any price that isn't absolutely ridiculous.
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He had a strong first half of 12-13, before tailing off badly and didn't even register a single assist in the closing months of the season IIRC. He wasn't Malaga's best player, but Mata was at Chelsea and was subsequently nominated as POTY candidate. To say otherwise disregards all evidence.
The concensus of Isco at the time was a player of marvelous technique, but had proven very little
Regardless of what people seem to think of why Mkhi was brought to us, the truth of the matter is that his best position is in the hole and his is naturally deadlier from there. Don't even bring in the argument about him playing from the wing at Dortmund because that positioning was mostly on paper but as games themselves he was far more centrally than on any side.
Secondly no need to undermine Mata trying to make your point. Different playersof different ilks. Mata came to us as a terrific number 10 at chelsea, this cannot be denied. He's proven himself in the 10 role and was one of the best in that role along with Silva while at Chelsea. So this reluctance about the guy playing there for us is baseless. Him not having Silva or KDB sprinting or playing style doesn't matter, what matters here is that he is a proper 10 which we have 2 in him and Mkhi.
While warming the bench at Madrid isn't a bad thing, it also means you're not world class, simple as that. You don't just throw that title around to players who hardly play let alone perform consistently. Any of James or Isco is a luxury buy given their adaptability in other role isn't their strongest suit and mostly strive in that 10 role which again is overloaded.
We're talking about luxury buys here with huge wages being wasted for no reason. We have technically sound players already filling that 10 posts and reinforcement is certainly not needed there.
Madrid being associated with their names is what making people go nuts.
All the discussion because of the Mirror and AS probably quoting the Mirror? Hardly reliable both of them.
What a load of rubbish. Firstly, what "world class" playmakers are available? The best play with the best teams. Secondly, people have given you several examples of players who couldn't break into Spanish teams yet were close to the "world class" tag.
KDB couldn't get a game at Chelsea, he ain't too bad of a player, Sanchez at Barca, Thiago at Barca, list could go on.
Whether Mata was WC at Chelsea or not is another matter altogether but what's undeniable is that Mata at Chelsea was simply a better player with a far better season than what Isco showed at Malaga or anywhere else for that matter, it's as simple as that.
Funny how when Mata was playing for Chelsea people were licking their lips and raving about the guy when he was tearing things up with them. And typically from Caf he was seen as this almost world most wanted player people wished we had then after a few years in our dysfunctional team, there is this sudden revisionism about his season at Chelsea.
Same is happening with these players playing elsewhere. grass always greener with some people in here. Because he's played for Madrid(again need to reiterate here, warms the bench) he's labeled world class out of thin air despite not proving so.
Isco isn't world class, neither is James. They are product of the Madrid hypes, especially James.
Load of BS? what written in that post is BS?
How many WC players do you see warming the bench anywhere? You even can't think of any and now you're coming with the "almost" tag to explain any of the clear fallacies you guys believe. If you believe Isco and James are WC then be it
Load of BS? what written in that post is BS?
How many WC players do you see warming the bench anywhere? You even can't think of any and now you're coming with the "almost" tag to explain any of the clear fallacies you guys believe. If you believe Isco and James are WC then be it
Firstly, where have I ever mentioned he was "world class" the discussion here is whether he would be an improvement. Believe it or not, there are only a small handful of players that are world class, none of which would join us.
To claim because he isn't a constant in a starting 11 composed of a large majority of those WC players is baffling. Martial and Rashford would warm the bench there too, does that make their potential or ability any less impressive? Isco is still only 24, how good he can become and whether or not he starts games consistently don't go hand in hand, as multiple scenarios have shown you.
You don't need to sign world class players to improve a team, he is more direct than Mata, is quicker and a better dribbler, even with me being a big fan of Mata's. Mata and Mkhi wouldn't start for Madrid either, so I don't see what this benchwarming thing is all about tbh.
Isco still has time on his side and huge bags of ability, he may never become world class, but you could argue that about any upcoming footballer.
Edit: Oh and also, not claiming Isco is world class but an example of a WC player warming the bench is Kaka, funnily enough also at Madrid.
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We really dont need him, I think this is just media bollocks tbf.
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Then you were replying to the wrong person. My whole bout with the other guy was mostly about whether Isco was world class or not.
And your second bit about him improving us is another point i clearly disagree with. bringing Isco here would mean to further stack more number 10 in our squad and we're already overloaded in there.
Whether Mata or Mhki would start at Madrid is beside the point, we already have them and are plenty enough to fill the 10 role for us, we don't another one on top of them because that would clearly be a luxury buy. we're not talking about a CF, winger or anything. we're talking about another 10 to add to our rank of endless whom in the past 3 years didn't even have the chance to actually play there due to the Rooney's situation.
You bring Isco here to shift him around and he'll under perform and fail to adapt to an unfamiliar or less preferred role. We don't need that right now. We're good in the 10 department as things stand.
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He's wonderful aesthetically, but I don't think he hurts teams enough. I also think he'd generally be more suited to the possession-based style favoured by Barcelona/Bayern/PSG (and now City), than the type of football Mourinho's sides play. Plus, Pogba should be the most advanced midfielder, more-often-than-not.
This is clearly an upgrade on the team we had out agaisnt Leicester, not sure how anyone can argue that.
I agree he isnt world class, nobidy can be world class when they arent starting. He has the potential that though, and for me all thats holding him back is a lack of consistent playing time which was the same case for Thiago and Sanchez at Barca. Isco would be at a similar price probably too because he isnt playing many games there at the minute.
Aa for the players we have for that.... Mourinho's wide players drift in loads. Thats why I think he went for Mkhitaryan and why I think he'll thrive once he settles in. Like I said, I want to see him used in our midfield 3 next to Pogba because of his play style and quality, but if we want him there long term, we need to sign a right winger. Alternatively, if he is used on the right, then we need someone for that 3rd midfield role. I dont think we should play with a proper #10 anyway, and thats why Isco is more suited to us then Mata playing there.
Mata is quality, yes, but he is limited because of his lack of movement and not having that agility on the ball. He played in part of a midfield 3 on the weekend, but against tougher opposition having him there I dont think would work as well because when he comes up against a high pressing side and surrounds him, he isnt the best at drifting past those players or holding on to the ball. Isco on the other hand is silva/iniesta like so he can hold on to it and dribble past groups of players easily because of his huge talent. So in a midfield 3, Isco is just more suited to it then Mata is.
Besides, do you honestly believe that Mourinho will ever see Mata as a key player? I cant see it, so while of course the main priority is a holding midfielder, we also need that 3rd midfielder to become a truly top side, or a right winger if Mkhitaryan will be used there. I guarantee that Isco is a far better player then whoever we would manage to sign on the right though, and anyway we have a quality right sided player in Mkhitaryan who will drift inwards loads like he did at Dortmund because Mourinho has his wide players do the same thing.
Will we even use a proper #10 moving forward? Pogba is used as the left of a midfield 3 as a box to box and we just need someone on the right of that as a creative playmaker. You keep mentioning mkhitaryan but I am pretty confident in saying Mourinho bought him for the right, to drift inwards. So that leaves rooney/mata or some random youngster for thelat 3rd midfielder. Rooney is past it, its not gonna be some young player so just answer me, do you really think Mourinho sees Mata in his long term starting 11, or someone who can really transform us and make us a dominant team?
IMO, he wont be anything more then a squad player under Mourinho, so if Mkhitaryan is a right mid, then we need someone who can be potentially world class for that creative midfield role, and Isco is perfect for that because of his potential while being a very good player as is.
Excellent player, would need to move someone out to get him in. I'd be all for signing him, if Jose sees a place for him & knew who would be making room for him in the squad.
Would be very creative and have excellent ball retention.
Carrick
Miki Isco Pogba Martial
Ibra
Miki Isco Pogba Martial
Ibra
Would be very creative and have excellent ball retention.
Everyone seems to be assuming that we're looking at him as a central attacking midfielder. If, and its a big if, we are looking at him, is it possible that we could be looking at him as a left winger? He's a fantastic dribbler and great at going past a player. obviously he doesnt have hazards pace but he's far more similar to the wingers he's worked with in the past than martial.
A good, aesthetically pleasing player that appears better than he really is. I'd take him, generally, but he isn't what we seem to need.