Fair enough, obviously I need to pay more attention to Kagawa when he's used out "wide" for us.
Isco
- Thread starter Devil may care
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Well most of the time he's used so wide, he's on the bench.
Nobody catch any of the Malaga game at the weekend? Some real moments of skill and brilliance from Isco. He's far from the finished article and I'm not sure exactly how effective he'll turn out to be, but he's certainly going to provide entertainment for whoever picks him up. Shades of Ronaldinho at times with some of his tricks.
Would be high on my list to replace one of our wingers and I'm sure Fergie could form him into a top class player
We recently signed Zaha (to replace on of our wingers).
Want want want
We need more than him. Our wings need a total revamp.
Only he's completely wrong about playing Kagawa and Welbeck as false wingers.
Shoe horning a player into a position and system unnatural to him doesn't isn't the same as changing your system to accommodate them.
We asked Kagawa to play wide, he hasn't played as a "false winger" at all, he just doesn't have the tools to beat his man and put cross after cross in like our wingers would normally do, so he has done what he knows best and played simple football and a pass and move game, only it looks impotent because it was so far away from goal. He naturally tried to come inside to get more involved at times but as we weren't playing the right sort of tactics for that to work, with the right sort of players picking up the right sort of positions for it, it hasn't been a success.
Playing with "false wingers" is a hell of a lot more than playing a player who isn't a traditional winger out wide. It also requires your strikers to be savvy with their positioning to create space for themselves and the false winger to exploit and it requires the midfielders to do a lot more leg work, covering wide and offering themselves for short passes in advanced positions, something our midfielders rarely look to do.
Here we go again making a really simple "tactic" sound complicated. When Kagawa plays out on the left he ends up spending much more time infield than he does on the wing - that's all a false winger is, his starting position is "false". That's where Park played too. You don't need some complex system to play that way. I highly doubt Sir Alex said to the team "right lads, we're going to move to this fluid 433/4231 setup where Ronaldo plays in this wing-centreforward role while Giggsy drifts infield to play as a playmaking inside forward. That means Rooney and Tévez are going to need to be savvy with their movement and pull the defenders out wide to create space for Giggs and Ronaldo to exploit and we'll need Carrick/Anderson/Scholes/Hargreaves/Fletcher pulling out wide and supporting the attackers high up the pitch and we'll create this devastatingly dynamic team". More likely it was just a case of intelligent players finding a way of playing together and they just stumbled upon a system that worked for them.
Are you sure it's not Brwned who's the object of your affections?
Brwned wins
Really? Because that is exactly the sort of thing they are told to do.
You seem to think they just put 11 players out on a field and tell them to play football.
Take Carrick for example, he's excelled since he's stepped out of Scholes' shadow.
Is that because he no longer looks an inferior player next to his partner? Of course it isn't, it's because he plays without the fear of leaving our defence exposed. He had his wings clipped because he was playing next to a partner who was never very defensively savvy. He couldn't advance up the field as often which left him away from the action. Since he's had a mobile partner in Cleverley who has the legs to get back and cover space too, he's been able to advance up the field, has pressed more in the oppositions half and has been more involved in our attacking play which has seen him more involved in our play in general which is why he has been so fecking good.
The same goes for our "false wingers". A false winger is someone who as you say starts wide and rather than hugging the touchline, looks to come inside and dictate things centrally.
A good example of a false winger is Silva for City.
Now compare the position's he got himself into in his last league match when he played as a "False Winger" against Newcastle:
Compared to where Kagawa was able to get himself into in his last League match against Stoke:
It's worth pointing out that Kagawa got one pass away withing 25 yards of the oppositions goal, yet you describe him as a "false winger"?
Silva starts out in exactly the same starting position out wide, with two midfielders next to him and two strikers. The difference is the instructions given.
While United try to play with width and ask Kagawa to ignore his instincts to get in and around the penalty area, Silva is encouraged to do exactly that and his team mates accomodate him doing so by offering the relevant support and protection.
That is the difference and the reason we have been merely shoe horning central players wide and not actually playing "false wingers" like you insist we are. Tactically it's completely different.
For me it's more to do with "how" we play. We definitely played a completely different style of football at the start of last season. Put kagawa in that united team and he'd be awesome.
Most of the difference between Silva and Kagawa there is down to the fact that Silva was switching flanks with Nasri a few times.
Most certainly not. I think you underestimated a lot of what coaches and mangers actually teach their team in terms of tactic and it's not a simple case of telling them what to do, the training sessions you do with a team needs to support the automatisms that are needed for a tactic as well.
Of course over complicating things in football is never a good thing either and if you have good players they can make almost any tactic work but dismissing the fact that tactical work is done with a team and that it can be quite important is a bit naive.
Bayern is a pretty good example for how a tactical approach can change a team where players have remained almost the same over two seasons, if you compare the way they played last season to how they play today it's quite a noticeable difference in their tactical approach and the players are expect for Martinez and Mandzukic still the same.
Of course buying Mandzukic was probably the most important transfer they have made last summer because he suites their new tactical approach much more than Gomez, so without that transfer they might not even play exactly the way they do this year.
In the end it's always a mix of the two elements, talented players and a good tactical framework will result in an amazing team, subtract either of it and you still might get a good team that can win things but not one of those teams that people will get amazingly excited about when watching them play.
Like the current Utd side?
Good post man
Anyway.. Kagawa is clearly a 'false winger', it's blatantly clear that he looks to drift inside all the time.
He's an attacking midfielder/Number 10 shoved out wide in a 4-4-2. Totally different things.
Obviously his best position is as a number 10..
He is played as a false winger though, starting on the left and continually cutting inside.
What are totally different things? Being an attacking midfielder doesn't mean he can't play as a false winger. Really not sure what you are trying to say here, what Kagawa is doing is fairly common, Silva, Mata etc have all played as false wingers yet are all better infield. This is the exact same situation.Obviously his best position is as a number 10..
He is played as a false winger though, starting on the left and continually cutting inside.
I've explained it over the last couple of pages.
We set up in flat banks of 4-4-2 with wingers stretching the play, he does come inside because that is natural to him but our general tactic isn't one that accommodates a true false winger. Hernandez aside who has been used sparingly, we don't have any strikers who like to link up by dropping deep and making a run. Rooney drops deep and orchestrates and Van Persie likes to hold up the ball and look to get a shot away. Neither really look to link up with Kagawa like others do with players like Silva or Iniesta. We just don't play that sort of game around the box. We're far more direct and it's a complete waste of Kagawa's talents.
So did Zidane, so did Scholes, Sneijder, Modric etc. It never stopped them from drifting inside and influencing the game.
Don't see why it is such a big deal, he's not an old school number 10 like Riquelme who isn't particularly agile and is ineffective out wide.
Modern number 10s like Ozil, Gotze who start central end up drifting out wide and swapping positions anyway these days, having Kagawa do the opposite is no less effective.
No we don't at all, not even a little bit.
If Rooney is dropping deep to orchestrate play then surely that is perfect for a technical winger like Kagawa who wants to play passing football..
I'm still not sure exactly what we are disagreeing about but he is definitely playing as a false winger at the moment IMO, I agree it isn't getting the best out of him though.
This is what I don't understand, 'an attacking midfielder shoved wide' can be a false winger. They aren't 'totally different things' at all.
It's quite common and not at all surprising, I mean if you play a technical AM on the wing then obviously they will look to drift inside all the time, hence a false winger.
We don't? How do we line up then?
People seem to like to over think formations and I know people like to think that we play some kind of 4-2-3-1 formation but we really don't, if you watch Chelsea that's how a 4-2-3-1 formation really lines up and it's nothing like ours
How the feck is it overthinking a formation to disagree with the idea that we play with flat banks in a 4-4-2? Nutter.
Rooney plays far too deep for it to be a 4-4-2, look at how much deeper he was than Van Persie. This isn't a one game thing but every single time we play, Fergie always has one of them playing in attacking midfield/in the hole. It's not even just Rooney either, if Kagawa plays there then it's the exact same, or even Welbeck like against Madrid or Chelsea in the FA Cup where he played behind Hernandez.
Then there is Valencia, he is clearly no where near to being a flat 4-4-2 type of player. He's way too far forward and regularly more advanced than Rooney and alongside RVP. It's definitely a 4-2-3-1, or if you want to call it a 4-4-2 with a deep forward or a 4-4-1-1 then go for it, they are all roughly the same. But the former is the most accurate IMO because of how advanced our wingers are and how deep Rooney comes.
It's clearly not a flat 4-4-2 though.
It's not just about freedom to roam though. Wingers in a 4-4-2 have a defensive responsibility to cover their fullback. Kagawa isn't free of that. He is expected to fall back into a wide position when we lose the ball. The same can't be said of Silva, who has license to roam for City with Barry covering his fullback and Nasri or Milner slotting in centrally. It's a very different tactic with different responsibilities in different areas to what we play.
These were actually my replies to you way before he had even kicked a ball for us and I stand by it. He's wasted on the wing as long as we play the way we do. Kagawa isn't the sort of player that should be put out wide with the burden of getting back and helping out his fullback like all our wingers have to do. He's the guy we should be shifting the ball to in the centre when we have a chance to counter attack and he should be flanked by two proper pacey wingers to provide him support. It'd certainly be a better option than pinging it wide to Valencia while 3 other players sprint away from him.
This is all I needed or wanted to read of your reply. Come back when you can carry a conversation without having to resort to personal insults
Don't say stupid things then.More insults how mature, is this how you conduct yourself in person?
Jesus, I called one part of your post stupid. You need to get a grip and stop being so ridiculously sensitive.
So with Gotze's future sorted now. Neymar seemingly moving to Barca or staying in Brazil, he'll be this summer's main muppet target ?
I'd love him, but don't see it happening.
Yeah... Between him Bale and Neymar!!! Either of the 3 will be muppet heaven.
I can see Jovetic and Lamela up there too. Just slightly less mainstream for now, but with youtube vids and whoscored stats, they'll join Bale and Isco.
Think he's as good as Arsenal's plus he plays upfront now.
Christian Erikson is also waiting on the sidelines.
James Rodriguez would be ahead of them, imo.
Draxler too, but I think he's still a bit lowkey too at the moment.
The most likely winger from abroad is probably Fischer.
The most likely winger from abroad is probably Fischer.
Lamela is always seems to pop up on ESPN. I can safely say I've never seen Rodriguez play...not sure about the rest.
He's got an insanely brilliant name though, for that alone he should be number one. The arab commentators would be brilliant: HARRRMEZZZZZZZZZZ RODREEEEEEEEGEZZZZZZZZZZ
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