It's working reasonably well for Chelsea now that they have a striker capable of scoring.
Isco
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That is why I am sure he'd be a great fit with Carrick, they'd compliment each other perfectly.
Yeah but we have pacey wide players in our full backs, who are very attacking. Not going to turn this into another thread slating our wingers but Rafael and evra have been our most effective wide players this year. We could probably cope well with playing narrow attacking midfielders.
I'm more convinced than ever, after last nught's insipid performance that we need a crafty schemer like this guy.Someone to excite us
Break the bank I say
Break the bank I say
And where exactly does he fit in? Where will you play him?
Anywhere he wants
---Carrick--new guy--
-Kagawa-Rooney-Isco
---------RVP-------
Dot it!!
I know it wont happen, if we were to seriously consider going this route then it would mean selling at least 1-2 wingers (they wont be needed) and with Zaha on the way and SAF love for wingers it doesn't look like it will happen anytime soon.
-Kagawa-Rooney-Isco
---------RVP-------
Dot it!!
I know it wont happen, if we were to seriously consider going this route then it would mean selling at least 1-2 wingers (they wont be needed) and with Zaha on the way and SAF love for wingers it doesn't look like it will happen anytime soon.
One thing I'm fairly sure of, is that we will be starting most of our games next season like this:
Valencia+ - Carrick - Cleverley - Young*
RVP - Rooney
+Nani
*Zaha
Frustrating isn't it.
God damn Sir Alex and his love for wingers. Look where it's got us eh.
Sack wingers, sell strikers?
Knocked out of Europe and the FA Cup and looking over our shoulder in the league?
Our wingers have been appaling all season and we're yet to switch to a Plan B tactic that isn't dependant on them.
On sorry are we supposed to be looking at the irrelevant bigger picture and looking at what we've won over the last 26 years with a totally different group of players?
Our wingers have been appaling all season and we're yet to switch to a Plan B tactic that isn't dependant on them.
On sorry are we supposed to be looking at the irrelevant bigger picture and looking at what we've won over the last 26 years with a totally different group of players?
We tried plan B earlier in the season and it didn't change a thing. The only way this current team can play is by relying on wingers. Kagawa has been brought in as our schemer but he's not got going yet.
Our wingers have been a disaster this season though.
Our wingers have been a disaster this season though.
We must move to this new, modern tactic of playing without wingers. You know, the one that's been about since Sir Alex was a player. It's the answer to all of our problems.
Screw Isco. Let's buy Aaron Lennon instead! He's a proper winger and that's what Fergie wants!
Maybe we could ... get some good wingers or something.
No? Well alright then...
No? Well alright then...
We already got Zaha....
It's only you that's obsessed with this "modern tactic without wingers". Myself and a lot of other people just want our weaknesses to be recognised and a tactic that can cover that weakness.
Weakness: We don't have a 2 man midfield strong enough to dominate the big games.
Weakness: Our wingers have been diabolical this season.
Going on that do you really think persisting with a 2 man midfield and out of sorts wingers is really the right thing to do despite it failing us in most of the big games?
We have already played Welbeck and Kagawa wide for large parts.
As in, tried to use them as wingers?
Balls to playing narrow. It makes for awful football alot of the time. Just need better wingers.
So what do you think we'll do with Isco ? And what did Malaga do with him against Porto and Dortmund in a 4-4-1-1?
No I just find it funny that you bolded Pexbo's plan B bit and made that comment. It looked like you were disagreeing with him yet what you said completely backed up his point. Maybe I misread
Even the best wingers are being played through the middle these days though, it kinda shows what direction football is going. Nearly every winger (at the top level) these days is capable and expected to play through the middle, both the position and player are evolving.
No I just find it funny that you bolded Pexbo's plan B bit and made that comment. It looked like you were disagreeing with him yet what you said completely backed up his point. Maybe I misread
Huh ? When we have played Kagawa there or even Welbeck both have cut inside from the left. The same a Isco would do.
Problem is that our wingers or whoever we have played wide have largely been poor and not creating enough like previous seasons.
Which isn't what Nani or Young do?
Young ? He only really cuts in to cross or shoot from his right foot. Otherwise he keeps wide most of the time.
Nani drifts infield more especially when he's playing poorly, but Isco and Kagawa even when playing wide operate mainly from the centre in a attacking sense rather than take their man on the outside. (Though Isco can).
If you watched last night's game it'd be pretty clear that Young cuts in far more to move the ball with his right foot than he keeps it wide, likewise Nani. What you're claiming Isco and Kagawa do really isn't that different, and SAF would certainly not be letting either of them play "mainly in the center" if he told them they were playing out wide.
Nope, it's a widespread opinion. Football's evolving and wingers are no longer part of that evolution, so we need to move to this new modern setup that lets us incorporate these small, technical midfielders that've never been seen before. Just look at this as an example:
This year we've played Welbeck and Kagawa as these false wingers you all crave and in general they've played pretty well individually but haven't made us hugely threatening. We've seen City go down this route and get found out pretty quickly. We need our wingers to play better, that's obvious. Thinking we need to change our entire system is mostly reactionary bollocks from people who get all caught up in the Zonal Marking-esque pseudo-intellectualism of the game. The rest is just people being bored of playing the same system and envious of all the adulation Barca have received so when we're not playing well it's one of the easiest things to blame.
In 07/08 our most-used partnership was Anderson-Carrick. It was no more suited to dominating big games than this one yet somehow, amazingly, we were very successful in spite of that. If we signed Bale the no wingers nonsense would die down very quickly because we'd remember just how threatening and entertaining it makes us.
That's because he is right footed. Jeez, isn't that obvious. He receives the ball wide and cuts in on the right to cross or shoot.
That's very different to drifting infield to collect the ball though like something Welbeck did on that counter where he didn't pass to Rooney.
And have you watched Kagawa play wide this season? Take the Norwich game for example and his first goal. Or against Southampton where he supplied Rooney.
He cuts in to receive the ball in the centre a lot more and even when wide cuts in towards the centre to play short passes and stay there. Only covers the flank defensively otherwise he plays the flank as any other false winger and is allowed too.
This is where Kagawa plays when he plays "left wing". It's the same when Isco plays "left wing" for Málaga. It's the exact same position that Silva, Mata and various others play when they're put out wide.
Thanks for the lesson there, I hadn't watched any of them play before.
How many times have we used Kagawa out wide now? I can't see SAF continuing to let him playing so centrally if he does use him out wide, and I don't think by using Kagawa or Welbeck out wide it means he has abandoned the idea of having wingers in favour of something else. Young and Nani don't go that central (I didn't say they did, hence the "that different" part) but they do drift in on the ball quite a bit and certainly don't play as the sort of winger Valencia does on the right, for example.
We haven't had a natural left winger in a long time, Young and Nani, especially Nani, cut in a lot and try contribute centrally, certainly not as much as Kagawa does, but that's his instinct as a player and we've used him our wide feck all so far. I don't think that SAF is going to change the system around for him.
All I did was bold your "cut inside from the left" part, that's something Nani and Young do all the time.
Despite watching plenty of all of them for some reason when watching Kagawa you didn't realise that they all play in exactly the same areas when played out wide...that's a bit weird. It's a common opinion but it makes no sense why. We've played this wonderful 4231 with floating attackers that people crave and we've played Kagawa and Welbeck as false wingers yet you still here the same argument about us being one dimensional and behind the times and whatever else. What people are saying and what's happening are two entirely different things. We played this fluid 4231 against Chelsea just last week. It was crap. It wasn't crap because it's a broken system or because we're incapable of playing that way, it was just crap because the players didn't play well. The same is true for the 442/4411/4231/whatever you want to call it that we've played this year. It's not that it can't work in the modern game, it just hasn't worked because the wide players haven't played well.
It's not about abandoning a wing-based system, it's about us "not having a Plan B" when clearly Kagawa and Welbeck as false wingers are exactly that. Not sure how many times we've played Kagawa there (Mad Winger/Kagawa fanboy #1 keeps telling us he's played half of his games out of position) but we've played Welbeck there countless times.
You've lost me there. Personally I've always thought having Welbeck out wide was more so because of what he gives us defensively as opposed to him being this "Plan B" offensively for us, and I don't really recall Kagawa playing out there that much, certainly not as much as I remember him being behind the striker, but I'll take yours/MW's word on that one.
I agree with the rest of what you're saying though, I thought my original posts made that clear.
When Kagawa's played there he's done exactly that, yet you and a whole host of others seem to have convinced yourselves that nope, Sir Alex is far too stuck in his ways for that, there's no way we would actually let them play this floaty attacking midfielder role that Mata, Isco and the rest play when they're stuck "out wide".
Going by the media, the club tried it's best to acquire Lucas/Hazard during the summer. If either one of those joined, i don't think any of us would be complaining about the lack of quality we currently face. There was a reason SAF was so keen on signing some wide players and after missing out on those two, he went and signed Zaha in January which he probably felt was an absolute necessity for the coming season ahead.
What game is that from?
I'm only asking because Welbeck is playing in it too and he's in a wider position than Kagawa. Or was he a sub?
I sometimes fail to see how people think that Barca has no wing play.
Last season Messi got most assists from Dani Alves who we all know pretty much plays as a winger for Barca despite being a FB on paper.
I always feel it's best to have a lot of variety in a system where you can come over the wings and through the center but not solely rely on one direction of play.
The system is imo not that important if you have the right players to play a variable game and offer a threat from every direction of the pitch other teams will have a hard time dealing with your side.
Our history shows that you can play free flowing attacking football with pretty much every system be it 4-4-2, 4-5-1, 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 it doesn't matter as long as you have the needed quality across the board and not only on one side of the pitch or in one area.
As it stands atm we lack some threat through the middle because the center of our pitch is rather weak, the wings this season haven't been up to the standards of the last few seasons and we have a bit of depth problem on our FB positions, the striker and central defender area is probably the only area we are really among the best of the best atm and it shows when it comes to international an cup games.
Last season Messi got most assists from Dani Alves who we all know pretty much plays as a winger for Barca despite being a FB on paper.
I always feel it's best to have a lot of variety in a system where you can come over the wings and through the center but not solely rely on one direction of play.
The system is imo not that important if you have the right players to play a variable game and offer a threat from every direction of the pitch other teams will have a hard time dealing with your side.
Our history shows that you can play free flowing attacking football with pretty much every system be it 4-4-2, 4-5-1, 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 it doesn't matter as long as you have the needed quality across the board and not only on one side of the pitch or in one area.
As it stands atm we lack some threat through the middle because the center of our pitch is rather weak, the wings this season haven't been up to the standards of the last few seasons and we have a bit of depth problem on our FB positions, the striker and central defender area is probably the only area we are really among the best of the best atm and it shows when it comes to international an cup games.
Yep, he was a sub!
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