Southgate is a poor manager, doing decently well due to the high level of his players. England and United deserve much better, but I guess we are both happy with mediocrity so...
Is Southgate underrated by the CAF?
- Thread starter Sir Erik ten Hag
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If he does come in I suppose I'll support him but won't lie he'd be one of the last managers I'd ever hope we get.
Feels a bit of a moyesesque appointment.
That said I'm not too worried. I highly doubt he is Ineos first choice and I'm sure they are aware it wouldn't go down well.
It's also the type of appointment Liverpool would make when they where in their barren period.
Feels a bit of a moyesesque appointment.
That said I'm not too worried. I highly doubt he is Ineos first choice and I'm sure they are aware it wouldn't go down well.
It's also the type of appointment Liverpool would make when they where in their barren period.
He’s basically on the same level as Solskjaer to me.
If England succeed, it’s in spite of him. He’s the weak point of the whole setup with the players at their disposal.
If England succeed, it’s in spite of him. He’s the weak point of the whole setup with the players at their disposal.
No, he cost England at the last World Cup with his team selections.
So Klopp won the champions league in his fourth season whereas Ole won nothing and got sacked within three. Terrific comparison.
I think he has good traits and bad traits:
Good: Nice guy, professional, handles media well, players like him, won't accept bad behavior, seems able to bond a team.
Bad - In game tactics, negative, question mark over coaching, has never really managed club football, he's just not very inspiring.
For me the above says he is well suited to international football but it's wayyyyyy too risky at club level. Especially for a club the size of Utd.
Good: Nice guy, professional, handles media well, players like him, won't accept bad behavior, seems able to bond a team.
Bad - In game tactics, negative, question mark over coaching, has never really managed club football, he's just not very inspiring.
For me the above says he is well suited to international football but it's wayyyyyy too risky at club level. Especially for a club the size of Utd.
Kinda get your point but I would correct physical attractiveness to very low charisma.
He just seems to be a dull person. And that gives the impression that he's worse than he really is.
It may be that I'm not an angry or disappointed England fan but I quite like Gareth Southgate and rate him higher than most as an international manager.
The problem ultimately is about expectations. He is shite at crunch time, absolutely, and that's a big issue when you are the manager of ~10 nations.
For most others someone like him is ideal: good man manager and disciplinarian, hardworking at talent-spotting, sets up robustly and sticks to a style that suits the strengths and weaknesses of the players the grassroots produce (e.g. you can't expect England to play tiki taka, it's not sustainable, you can't have it rely on individual brilliance either, that's a cherry on the cake).
He is shite at knockouts, which shouldn't be surprising when as a footballer he is most famous for being the one guy missing a penalty in a shootout and has been yapping about it ever since.
How many managers actually have the skill, mindset and conviction to go for the kill when the stakes are so high? Very few really. Few of those having the nous have the conviction, while there's tonnes that have the conviction but only really have it because they completely lack the nous and get their asses handed back on a plate.
You could argue he has neither, so he slow boils to the same ultimate outcome as pretty much anyone else bar a few. I can see why that is infuriating with the talent at his disposal but it doesn't make him crap, just the wrong man for that job.
The problem ultimately is about expectations. He is shite at crunch time, absolutely, and that's a big issue when you are the manager of ~10 nations.
For most others someone like him is ideal: good man manager and disciplinarian, hardworking at talent-spotting, sets up robustly and sticks to a style that suits the strengths and weaknesses of the players the grassroots produce (e.g. you can't expect England to play tiki taka, it's not sustainable, you can't have it rely on individual brilliance either, that's a cherry on the cake).
He is shite at knockouts, which shouldn't be surprising when as a footballer he is most famous for being the one guy missing a penalty in a shootout and has been yapping about it ever since.
How many managers actually have the skill, mindset and conviction to go for the kill when the stakes are so high? Very few really. Few of those having the nous have the conviction, while there's tonnes that have the conviction but only really have it because they completely lack the nous and get their asses handed back on a plate.
You could argue he has neither, so he slow boils to the same ultimate outcome as pretty much anyone else bar a few. I can see why that is infuriating with the talent at his disposal but it doesn't make him crap, just the wrong man for that job.
To me it seems like an England manager can never really win. There’s so much partisanship, and the rivalry between clubs is so fierce, that people fixate on things of little importance, like a rival player playing instead of one of their own. Was Henderson always the best option in central midfield? Probably not. Was he so much worse than the alternatives that he significantly hampered England’s chances? Almost certainly not. Does it really matter whether he or someone else is the 21st pick in the Euros squad? Not at all.
As it stands, England have arguably been the best-playing side in two of the three major tournaments he’s presided over. Had the margins fallen their way, they would have had a World Cup final (possible title) and a Euros title. They also deserved to beat France, probably the strongest squad in the tournament, at the World Cup. Yes, Southgate has been overly cautious, borderline defeatist, at times considering the talent at his disposal, particularly in not going for it in extra time against Italy. But he seems to have learned from that and adapted.
So, while he has his faults, I don’t see any rational arguments against him being a very good England manager. To me it shows how fickle perception can be in football; if Lady Luck had been kind to him on a couple of occasions, he would be hailed as a national hero.
As it stands, England have arguably been the best-playing side in two of the three major tournaments he’s presided over. Had the margins fallen their way, they would have had a World Cup final (possible title) and a Euros title. They also deserved to beat France, probably the strongest squad in the tournament, at the World Cup. Yes, Southgate has been overly cautious, borderline defeatist, at times considering the talent at his disposal, particularly in not going for it in extra time against Italy. But he seems to have learned from that and adapted.
So, while he has his faults, I don’t see any rational arguments against him being a very good England manager. To me it shows how fickle perception can be in football; if Lady Luck had been kind to him on a couple of occasions, he would be hailed as a national hero.
In the wider post you agreed he was border line defeatist and had since learned. Can you explain how, and how specifically he's improved?
Many people forget that Southgate was a poor club manager and in 2 years took Boro down.
He is in very fortunate situation that he was a yes man and was shoehorned into the position by the FA at a time when there was a massive shortage of good candidates for the role. He's also been lucky with the talent at his disposal...a likeable guy , a yes man, but not ready for the premiership title challenge.
Stick with ETH
He is in very fortunate situation that he was a yes man and was shoehorned into the position by the FA at a time when there was a massive shortage of good candidates for the role. He's also been lucky with the talent at his disposal...a likeable guy , a yes man, but not ready for the premiership title challenge.
Stick with ETH
In 47 years from 1970 to 2017 England won a grand total of 6 knockout matches in world cups or euros. From 2018 to 2022, they have won 5.
Not quite as bad of a comparison as saying Southgate would do a similar job to a manager who went to the Etihad and schooled Pep on 3 consecutive occasions.
The problem is if you are overly cautious and defeatist and avoid going for it Lady Luck usually winds up favouring the other side.
Fortune favours the brave.
But why is your benchmark the people who previously failed at the job? The success criteria for a manager isn't just performing better than the predecessors.
England under every manager since Ramsey have been a nearly team.
Southgate is just another nearly manager.
He nearly wins things.
Only England fans remember coming second, no-one else does.
Great managers know what's best for the team, Ramsey did it in '66 dropping Greaves to play Charlton, who he knew he could trust to do a man to man job on Beckenbauer, Greaves would never have done it.
Southgate doesn't have the balls to do that and it shows in his overall tactics.
Southgate is just another nearly manager.
He nearly wins things.
Only England fans remember coming second, no-one else does.
Great managers know what's best for the team, Ramsey did it in '66 dropping Greaves to play Charlton, who he knew he could trust to do a man to man job on Beckenbauer, Greaves would never have done it.
Southgate doesn't have the balls to do that and it shows in his overall tactics.
The squad is exceptional and the competition poorer in relative terms.
Brazil are shite, Germany are shite, Spain are a bit lost. Italy can't even qualify. Argentina have largely relied on Messi and belief. It's only really France that have a good vintage and I'd argue Zidane's or Platini's vintage would shit on them.
Well, my perception is based on the major tournaments as I haven’t watched England’s qualies. I was very impressed by England at the World Cup in 2022. For one thing, Southgate had abandoned the 3-5-2 from earlier tournaments which was obviously overly defensive for such a strong squad (at Euros 2020 at least, it’s worth remembering that the squad wasn’t nearly as good in 2018 and that Southgate exceeded expectations then). I also thought their football was much more expansive and exciting and that they showed a great deal of courage in that France game which they should have won. To me, it looked like Southgate had learned his lesson from the 2020 final, which is undeniably the black mark on his England record (because I think you can make the argument that England lost due to his lack of courage), but one that I don’t think should define it.
But it seems it doesn't favour England, no matter how brave they may be. You certainly can't complain about Southgate being overly cautious in Qatar...
Alisson-Bremer-Militao-Marquinhos-Savinho-Douglas Luiz-Bruno Guimaraes-Samuel Lino-Vinicius-Martinelli-Rodrygo
Neuer-Kimmich-Rudiger-Tah-Goretzka-Henrichs?-Gundogan-Sane-Wirtz-Musiala-Havertz
They're shit becuse of the managers, not because they lack players
Spain won the nations league last year, hardly lost. They have the best midfielder in the world - the best/most important player on the best team in the PL/the world - and have the most settled team in the world in terms of continuity of playing style, which does help, as it makes them closer to a club than any of their competitors, Argentina relied on MESSI - and finally won a world cup because Di Maria for once played in the final -
Maignan-Pavard/Kounde-Saliba-Konate-Theo-Tchouameni/Camavinga-Rabiot-Griezmann-Dembele-Mbappé-Thuram
If I do the same with England:
Pickford-Walker-Maguire-Stones-TAA-Rice-Maddison-Shaw-Bellingham-Saka-Kane. Or Pickford-Walker/TAA-Maguire-Stones-Shaw-Rice-Maddison-Bellingham-Saka-Foden-Kane
For the last time: it's not a team that's so much better than their rivals only massive mismanagement could stop it from winning
There in lies the problem: this is England's time. By any metric, this is the time serious nations take the bull by the horns and take also-ran to champion. The international landscape is the weakest it's been since I've been alive and at the same time, England have a Ballon D'or contender, a prolific goalscorer up top, numerous CL winners and finalists and a stack of players with robust international performance and experience.
This isn't a time when coming up short is acceptable, outside of an epic battle with a side like France, who are the only ones with the pool of talent to match or better England's horde and their own Ballon D'or contender to boot.
A lot of the time England get to these majors, its blind hope and good fortune as to how far they will go. That is simply not the case now unless they're cut down by a host of injuries to key players. There's also a high probability a few of those lining up for England this summer will be doing so hot off winning the CL and the Europa; there isn't going to be finer modern day pedigree than that at the Euros.
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People can’t seriously want him to replace ETH? I think the rumours are a trick from Ratcliffe. If they want a new manager they’ll be talking to whoever they want privately whilst pretending to want Southgate. It’s a smart way of having a clear shot at your first choice target. ETH is a better manager than Southgate by the way.
The problem is that he was far too late in playing 433. The squad was ready, and better tuned to this since 2020. Him falling on it after realising he needs to build round Bellingham doesn't really indicate strong management in my view.
It's also easy to look expansive against Wales, Iran and Senegal. If I'm being frank, it's hard not to blow teams away with that squad. The problem with Southgate is he's not actually able to maximise the potential of his squad. He never has been.
Also he was quite shite in game vs France. Cautious virtually the whole game and didn't make subs till too late.
What was courageous about the France game?
He opted not to make any changes until the 79th minute, and that was a reaction to England falling behind again. Even with those changes, he opted to bring on his old favourite, Sterling (who had literally just landed back in Qatar after leaving the squad to go home) rather than Rashford, who was absolutely on fire in the run up to the tournament, and had scored three goals in the group stage.
Rashford came on with five minutes of the 90 left, at which point all of the changes had essentially been like for like, and Southgate left it until the 9th minute of stoppage time to bring Grealish on for Stones.
Look, it’s been a while so I could be misremembering but as I recall, England were on the front foot, playing well and looking like scoring. There was no reason to change until France got a goal out of nowhere.
Bit harsh on Middlesbrough!!
Yeah, England were very good in that France game and Kane missing that penalty killed them. Of course, they may well have gone to a penalty shootout and bottled it like many other good England teams over the years. But in general play they were good, as they were against Iran, Wales and Senegal - USA game was awful.
The 2018 team wasn't that great, getting to the semi-finals was a good achievement. If you look back on that team now - Ashley Young and Lingard starting for example - semi-finals was a fair performance, albeit with a very easy draw.
By 2021, they had a top team and had players for the holes in the team they had previously. But yeah, was very cautious and they 100% should have won that final when going ahead, and on home ground. Had Italy on the ropes after 20 minutes and just stopped playing.
Yeah I don’t want a trophy less United that supposedly “schools” a City team who wins everything. Seems you like us hiring managers who fail.
Eriksen and Capello shared the other great team with equal shiteness.
That's a pretty average Brazil and Germany in relative terms.
Agree Spain seem to be finding their feet again but they were in the dumps for a few tournos. They still can't find a striker to save their lives.
Agree on Di Maria and I know it is Messi, but the point is what gets that Argentina side over the line is the belief and mentality that turns a squad with 2/3 rather average players into world beaters.
What you are overlooking in throwing lineups is depth. It's not just the first XI that makes me say the England and France vintages are strong but the embarrassment of riches. Much of the aggro usually comes from who he does/doesn't play. He doesn't have a problem like Di Maria not being fit to offer an option to "give it to Messi".
Agree on not holding Qatar against him. They were unlucky and didn't exactly lose to Iceland.
My initial post was actually arguing he is indeed underrated and there aren't really that many managers out there you would be confident would do a better job. I sure as hell wouldn't be looking at getting someone else in charge and will be rooting for him to leverage his experience so far and put it to good use.
Feck, just realised I'll be in England from 30/6 to 21/7. Two weeks of "It's coming home" will drive me mad.
We are arguing about him as England manager, nobody wants him here.
Capello is actually underrated due to culture shock and the resulting media campaign against him.
He has the highest PPG out of any manager in England's history, barring Allardyce and his 1 game.
Which is the reason I can’t see INEOS going for him. They seem like they want to please the fans and if they look then not many of our fans will be for this appointment.
I do NOT want him anywhere near United, please NO!!! he has zero CV prior to England, he plays far too defensively with an array of talent with England, it would be mind numbingly boring, I’ll stop watching United after 47 loyal years belive me.
Think the talent he has at his disposal, is masking his shortcomings.
Prefer low block defensive game. check
Doesn't play attacking game - check.
Doesn't press high - check.
Doesn't play out from back- check.
Not to mention he will prefer the average English players and spend exorbitant money on them.
Feck it - would rather have Jose.
Prefer low block defensive game. check
Doesn't play attacking game - check.
Doesn't press high - check.
Doesn't play out from back- check.
Not to mention he will prefer the average English players and spend exorbitant money on them.
Feck it - would rather have Jose.
Ok explain why do you think he would suit us ?
Lovely man ? Ole was a lovely man too. We need something better than that.
Colombia, Sweden, Germany, Ukraine, Denmark, Senegal
It's a shit list, and doesn't mean anything
He shouldn't be anywhere near United job
Did you not read the bit where I said I don't think he suits us?