Have to compare the squads too, though.
Is Southgate underrated by the CAF?
- Thread starter Sir Erik ten Hag
- Start date
I feel like this debate will last forever until United hired him to settle it once and for all. There is no inbetween. Either we win or get relegated.
Niette
If that was the case every top nation would hire the cheapest managers available but they don't.
Unless this is the best England squad ever, by far, then he deserves some credit. Capello and Sven had the "golden generation" and got nowhere.
Has any other manager had the bundesliga top scorer, la liga player of the year and premier league player of the year.
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I still don't think so. I think most people acknowledge that he's decent but has a lot of incredible shortcomings. He makes decent decisions at times but he has an embarassment of wealth at his disposal and he's been massively helped by pieces of individualism. He hasn't masterminded a final run. The only game they've not struggled in was last night, and even then they had a 20 minute spell where they were on the ropes.
That pretty much sums it up. It's criminal to see this team limping through every game. He hasn't convincingly won a single game, and he'll never be acknowledged outside of England as a great manager, even if he wins this tournament.
It must also be added that the general level of this tournament has been well below par, especially in England's half. People talking about the golden generation that got nowhere certainly don't remember the caliber of the opposition they faced in the knock-out stages, even if Eriksson did indeed fail get the best out of them.
Reminds me of Dalić. World cup finalist and semifinalist and a Nations league finalist but with a number of shortcomings as a manager. His best quality, similar to Southgate, is creating a good atmosphere among the team, motivation and cohesion. Of couse none of the successes wouldn't be possible without them knowing a thing or 2 about coaching, on the contrary but not exactly A class of coaches.
You have to be concerned about a manager that takes until the semi-final to play one of his best players in a way that actually suits him (Foden), and has stacks of talent on the bench that literally helps the team win games but refuses to bring them on until really late in the game if at all.
Better to be lucky than good comes to mind with Southgate. He's clearly a good man manager, the England team are all supportive of one another and working hard for one another. Tactically he's strange though, last night the Dutch made a change to their set up at half time that stifled England. Southgate just let this continue to happen until the last ten minutes.
He obviously had an answer because Palmer and Watkins came on, but chose not to change it until the end of the game.
The subs he makes generally seem to impact the game and it does seem to go England's way. You have to think though that giving players a few minutes at the end and expecting them to make the difference, it could so easily be that they don't have enough time to really make an impact and the result goes the other way.
Feel very sorry for Watkins as well that he's getting next to no game time. That run he made for the goal last night is what he's been doing to great effect all season for Villa. It pulls defenders out of position and gives other players something to aim for. Should definitely be starting over Kane.
Can't really knock the tournament results to be honest, he'd be horrible as a club manager though. Largely risk averse, doesn't notice tactical changes from the opposition (or chooses not to react to them promptly), leaves subs too late, frequently plays players who aren't playing well, chooses not to play quality players, everything you don't want in the manager of your club. There's simply too many games against talented and competitive teams to get away with that in most leagues.
Better to be lucky than good comes to mind with Southgate. He's clearly a good man manager, the England team are all supportive of one another and working hard for one another. Tactically he's strange though, last night the Dutch made a change to their set up at half time that stifled England. Southgate just let this continue to happen until the last ten minutes.
He obviously had an answer because Palmer and Watkins came on, but chose not to change it until the end of the game.
The subs he makes generally seem to impact the game and it does seem to go England's way. You have to think though that giving players a few minutes at the end and expecting them to make the difference, it could so easily be that they don't have enough time to really make an impact and the result goes the other way.
Feel very sorry for Watkins as well that he's getting next to no game time. That run he made for the goal last night is what he's been doing to great effect all season for Villa. It pulls defenders out of position and gives other players something to aim for. Should definitely be starting over Kane.
Can't really knock the tournament results to be honest, he'd be horrible as a club manager though. Largely risk averse, doesn't notice tactical changes from the opposition (or chooses not to react to them promptly), leaves subs too late, frequently plays players who aren't playing well, chooses not to play quality players, everything you don't want in the manager of your club. There's simply too many games against talented and competitive teams to get away with that in most leagues.
He's absolutely awful imo.
His man management is obviously great and he's clearly lucky! But he is tactically risk averse and as others said he doesn't react well in games when things are not working.
Last night was a great example in the first half we over ran the Dutch midfield, in the second half they flooded the midfield, but he failed to change the way we were playing at all and so all that good work ground to a halt as passing channels that had previously been open were suddenly closed off and players began to be alot slower on the ball and pass sideways and backwards. That changed a bit with the introduction of Watkins and the Dutch dropped deeper again as we had a mobile forward looking to get in behind. But he could have made that change much earlier, also he brought on Shaw but failed to tweak the set up so as to stretch the play more onto the wings and by pass the packed midfield. As @SilentWitness put it so well yesterday, it's weird how shit and great he is.
Last night was a great example in the first half we over ran the Dutch midfield, in the second half they flooded the midfield, but he failed to change the way we were playing at all and so all that good work ground to a halt as passing channels that had previously been open were suddenly closed off and players began to be alot slower on the ball and pass sideways and backwards. That changed a bit with the introduction of Watkins and the Dutch dropped deeper again as we had a mobile forward looking to get in behind. But he could have made that change much earlier, also he brought on Shaw but failed to tweak the set up so as to stretch the play more onto the wings and by pass the packed midfield. As @SilentWitness put it so well yesterday, it's weird how shit and great he is.
I can tell you for a fact here in Italy pundits and journos consider him a very good manager for England actually
Fans mostly don't care
Didn't know that. What do they exactly say about him?
I really can’t understand the dislike for Southgate for all his faults has done a fine job for England when he took over we were rock bottom a divided squad he has fostered a great team spirit and took England to a semi final and two finals not a bad achievement at all and he comes across as a decent person in interviews probably not good enough for a top team but are United a top team at the moment if we win Sunday and he leaves he has left the bar very high for the next manager
He's the bees knees.
He matches the mentality of the nation as a whole
He's a terrible coach. England have played well for 2 halves all tournament.
No. He's obviously okay but you couldnt have had an easier set of fixtures in your time at major competitions, meanwhile he has the best talent pool of any England manager. If he wins the final he's better than okay. If he loses it its the same as previous
This.
We haven't played a really good team. Denmark, Switzerland were decent, solid, nothing more. The Dutch were quite, quite poor in the midfield and attacking third. Where have all their players and talent gone???
It took media pressure to bring change in midfield, Kane has been ronaldo of this England team, Watkins add more to over all play and he has played very limitedly.
I would be pleasantly surprised if England play aggressive football, I think England will likely play counter attacking football against Spain and they will lose because of it imho
I would be pleasantly surprised if England play aggressive football, I think England will likely play counter attacking football against Spain and they will lose because of it imho
Maybe just maybe he's clocked the formula for tournament football.
Solid, pace yourselves, build momentum and save energy.
I'm not convinced that a Klopp England playing rock and roll football from the first group match would be the best way to approach a final... as fun as I'm sure it would be
Solid, pace yourselves, build momentum and save energy.
I'm not convinced that a Klopp England playing rock and roll football from the first group match would be the best way to approach a final... as fun as I'm sure it would be
All this “he’s clocked tournament football” stuff is nonsense.
He’s getting rave reviews for last night, simply for doing things the man on the street has been calling for since the first game of the tournament. He didn’t suddenly turn into a tactical genius.
He was 30 seconds from going out to Slovakia. He was a minute and a half from going out against a Dutch side that finished 3rd in their group and that with the help of a dodgy penalty decision. If he had met any of Spain, France, Germany or Portugal so far, England would be at home already.
Same has gone in previous tournaments. The only argument in his favour is that he’s the luckiest manager in the history of football and it is better to be lucky than to be good.
He’s getting rave reviews for last night, simply for doing things the man on the street has been calling for since the first game of the tournament. He didn’t suddenly turn into a tactical genius.
I’ve no dog in the fight - to be honest I hope England keep him weighed around your ankles forever - that way he never comes near the United job. But he’s shite.
He’s getting rave reviews for last night, simply for doing things the man on the street has been calling for since the first game of the tournament. He didn’t suddenly turn into a tactical genius.
He was 30 seconds from going out to Slovakia. He was a minute and a half from going out against a Dutch side that finished 3rd in their group and that with the help of a dodgy penalty decision. If he had met any of Spain, France, Germany or Portugal so far, England would be at home already.
Same has gone in previous tournaments. The only argument in his favour is that he’s the luckiest manager in the history of football and it is better to be lucky than to be good.
He’s getting rave reviews for last night, simply for doing things the man on the street has been calling for since the first game of the tournament. He didn’t suddenly turn into a tactical genius.
I’ve no dog in the fight - to be honest I hope England keep him weighed around your ankles forever - that way he never comes near the United job. But he’s shite.
There are many aspects to being a manager.
Tactical (which itself needs to broken down into segments)
Training (coaching)
Man management
Getting players to buy into what your trying to do
Understanding the little things and making sure they have the right environment
The little bit of magic
Tactically Southgate is pretty poor. At least he's beyond slow to react
Everything else he does seems okay to good though.
Sometimes fans think that all that matters is being good tactically, but that's not true. Even on the amateur game, I see young men that think they'd be a good manager, have played football manager and won the premier league so they must be good.... And yet they can't talk to people. They may have had really good coaches on the last, know all the drills, but they're terrified.
Southgate is not the best tactically, but he's a decent manager in many other ways. If he can delegate that part of his job out, he could do well.
Going places
Tactical (which itself needs to broken down into segments)
Training (coaching)
Man management
Getting players to buy into what your trying to do
Understanding the little things and making sure they have the right environment
The little bit of magic
Tactically Southgate is pretty poor. At least he's beyond slow to react
Everything else he does seems okay to good though.
Sometimes fans think that all that matters is being good tactically, but that's not true. Even on the amateur game, I see young men that think they'd be a good manager, have played football manager and won the premier league so they must be good.... And yet they can't talk to people. They may have had really good coaches on the last, know all the drills, but they're terrified.
Southgate is not the best tactically, but he's a decent manager in many other ways. If he can delegate that part of his job out, he could do well.
Going places
Carlos Queiroz was the opposite, great tactically, but awful man management, and Neville criticised his training. He wouldn't let them have fun.
I don't think so. He's done well to get so many people swallowing absolute tumescent football and gaslighting us into being grateful for it. He took one recognized left back to this tournament and said left back wasn't even fit enough to play until the quarter final. He prepared for this tournament by insisting on playing Trent in midfield, only to abandon him almost immediately.
He's created a good environment for the players and a togetherness, but I don't think he's created a winning mentality. I think that's probably the next managers job, so if we view him as a necessary stepping stone to success, then perhaps he is underrated.
He's created a good environment for the players and a togetherness, but I don't think he's created a winning mentality. I think that's probably the next managers job, so if we view him as a necessary stepping stone to success, then perhaps he is underrated.
England's golden generation under Sven were unlucky in facing two very good sides in Brazil and Portugal. Gareth has faced... ermmm a rebuilding Germany and Holland team. But I'd rather have a lucky manager than a good manager.
I think he lacks the "little bit of magic" part of your list as well.
Personally, I would also add "having a pair of balls" as a key aspect that separates also rans from the good managers, and he is completely lacking there. Even last night - taking Foden off because he is afraid of Bellingham, as he's shown all tournament, was just the wrong call. He gets away with it because England have so much individual quality to bail him out, but it isn't the work of a coach who believes in himself.
Do you know what a full stop or a comma is?
Spain will be the first decent team he'll have faced and I fully expect it to end in tears.
That he's good. He's doing better than any england coach in 50 years, he gets results, built the best team atmosphere and mentality in an england team since '66, is a solid tactician and a good strategist
Criticism mostly comes from Di Canio and it's mostly of the "can't adjust when plan A stops working" - also he's not really a solid tactician and good strategist. Decent enough but definitely a potential weakness of England under him.
Di Canio in fairness is probably the only pundit who pays enough attention to england not to be blinded by results
Not that I know of but plenty had the Premier league top scorers. Rooney, Shearer
Half my post is gone because of the posting issues recently.
Was supposed to say, has any other manager had the bundesliga top scorer, la liga player of the year and premier league player of the year.
He is a good man manager but average tactician.
Maybe what England lacked all these years was a good man manager and a sense of togetherness rather than the best tactician around. He has certainly achieved that and it will be interesting to see if that is enough to beat Spain and win the Euros.
Maybe what England lacked all these years was a good man manager and a sense of togetherness rather than the best tactician around. He has certainly achieved that and it will be interesting to see if that is enough to beat Spain and win the Euros.
Craziest thing ive read on here. Capello then? Sven? Is this the best english squad since 66?
Why didnt belgium do anything during their golden boys days?
He has the best xLuck of all the England managers.
No but they had PL all timers like Rooney, Scholes, Rio, Terry, Cole, Lampard, Gerrard, Neville and few others.
People overrate this squad a lot. The defensive combination is average, midfield always looks incomplete and a player playing as LW doesn't look suited for that role. Also CF looks way past his best.
As an international manager he’s definitely underrated. People have this fancy idea that this England team playing swashbuckling football should be a given. While every country wants that you only have to see France under DD to see that success and achieving greatness can be done in many ways.
On the other hand, as a club manager and potential candidate for the United job, Southgate is aptly rated - as a laughably bad candidate. It’s one thing to be a good fit for your NT and a whole other to succeed at possibly the most difficult big club football job in Europe. Especially for a manager who is a nothing manager at this level.
On the other hand, as a club manager and potential candidate for the United job, Southgate is aptly rated - as a laughably bad candidate. It’s one thing to be a good fit for your NT and a whole other to succeed at possibly the most difficult big club football job in Europe. Especially for a manager who is a nothing manager at this level.
Absolutely this. I much rather England play half decent football and get to the finals than smash it for each game and get knocked out due to a lack of tournament savviness
He’s done an incredible job and some people genuinely think anyone can do what he has done.
So Yes, massively underrated
So Yes, massively underrated
So if Gareth has worked out tournament football and it isnt about playing well in most of the matches are Spain going to play poorly in the final and England will win to show how naive they are?