Is Southgate underrated by the CAF?

What's his Nation's League record?

First one: 2 wins, 3 draws, 1 loss (2 losses if we count losing in ET). Both non-group matches went to ET.

Second one: Placed 3rd in group of 4. Above Iceland, below Belgium and Denmark. Record against Belgium and Denmark was 1W - 1D - 2L

Third one: Relegated in a group of 4. 0W - 3D - 3L against Italy, Germany and Hungary.

This is why I don't rate him. England's record against teams that are close to them in ranking is abyssmal.
 
Snow said:
What's his Nation's League record?

First one: 2 wins, 3 draws, 1 loss (2 losses if we count losing in ET). Both non-group matches went to ET.

Second one: Placed 3rd in group of 4. Above Iceland, below Belgium and Denmark. Record against Belgium and Denmark was 1W - 1D - 2L

Third one: Relegated in a group of 4. 0W - 3D - 3L against Italy, Germany and Hungary.

This is why I don't rate him. England's record against teams that are close to them in ranking is abyssmal.
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Thank feck you are here. A lot of talk about Euros and World Cup but we rightly forget that Nations League.
 
Wumminator said:
Thank feck you are here. A lot of talk about Euros and World Cup but we rightly forget that Nations League.
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Well it puts into perspective what we think/know about him. When he comes up against higher ranked teams he loses more often than not. That's also been true at the Euros and World Cup.

It also highlights that if he came up against more difficult opponents on more occasions in those Euro/WC runs he likely wouldn't have got to semi-finals or finals. He did however, and still lost, because he struggles incredibly against better opponents.
 
I don't rate Southgate much, especially tactically, and I think this has been his worst tournament from that perspective, but I do feel the balance between criticising players and manager is often too lopsided.
 
SilentWitness said:
Well it puts into perspective what we think/know about him. When he comes up against higher ranked teams he loses more often than not. That's also been true at the Euros and World Cup.

It also highlights that if he came up against more difficult opponents on more occasions in those Euro/WC runs he likely wouldn't have got to semi-finals or finals. He did however, and still lost, because he struggles incredibly against better opponents.
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You had 3D 1L against Germany and Italy and 2L to Hungary. In the Nations League that happened the same year as the WC. The NL England visibly didn't care to play(Germany also). And the WC where Germany went out at the group stage and England went out to France, playing them even and missing a penalty to send the game to ET...
 
giorno said:
You had 3D 1L against Germany and Italy and 2L to Hungary. In the Nations League that happened the same year as the WC. The NL England visibly didn't care to play(Germany also). And the WC where Germany went out at the group stage and England went out to France, playing them even and missing a penalty to send the game to ET...
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I don't support England. Instead of lose, I should have said underperform perhaps if you want to be picky, but the fact remains, his record against higher ranked teams/historically big nations is dire.
 
Never deserved the ridiculous vitriol. Took his country to several Euro and WC finals/SF. All other countries would die for a return like that from their manager.

Look at his successor rocking up with a formation and lineup you'd expect from the caf's armchair experts. Football isn't played on paper.

KjKSjQy.png
 
Samid said:
Never deserved the ridiculous vitriol. Took his country to several Euro and WC finals/SF. All other countries would die for a return like that from their manager.

Look at his successor rocking up with a formation and lineup you'd expect from the caf's armchair experts. Football isn't played on paper.

KjKSjQy.png
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Weird bump. Gareth?
 
Samid said:
Never deserved the ridiculous vitriol. Took his country to several Euro and WC finals/SF. All other countries would die for a return like that from their manager.

Look at his successor rocking up with a formation and lineup you'd expect from the caf's armchair experts. Football isn't played on paper.

KjKSjQy.png
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Southgate lost 4-0 to Hungary in the same competition last year.
 
Samid said:
Never deserved the ridiculous vitriol. Took his country to several Euro and WC finals/SF. All other countries would die for a return like that from their manager.

Look at his successor rocking up with a formation and lineup you'd expect from the caf's armchair experts. Football isn't played on paper.

KjKSjQy.png
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Great trolling
 
Samid said:
Never deserved the ridiculous vitriol. Took his country to several Euro and WC finals/SF. All other countries would die for a return like that from their manager.

Look at his successor rocking up with a formation and lineup you'd expect from the caf's armchair experts. Football isn't played on paper.

KjKSjQy.png
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England lost twice to Hungary within a month. One of them was a 4-0 defeat at home. Southgate masterminded those results.
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
Southgate lost 4-0 to Hungary in the same competition last year.
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Alex99 said:
England lost twice to Hungary within a month. One of them was a 4-0 defeat at home. Southgate masterminded those results.
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He reached tournament finals by playing to the team’s strengths. If he had catered to those who want to shoehorn every big name into the lineup he’d have been out of the job within 2-3 years like all his predecessors.

International football isn’t played that way and he was smart and cynical enough to realise that.
 
Graham Taylor, Glenn Hoddle, Terry Venables, Kevin keegan, Sven Goran Ericsson, Steve Maclaren, Fabio Capello,
Roy Hodgson, Sam Allardyce and now Carsley

The 30 years after Southgate will be as dreadful as the 30 years before Southgate.

The dullards who couldn't face that truth while he was in charge are going to have a long time for the light bulb to come on.

Southgate has 2 Euro Finals and a WC semi, those others can't hold a candle to him.
 
I don’t even know what the nations league is…. It just seems to be more international games squeezing the players and burning everyone out. Why do we even have this given with have the Euros?
 
Samid said:
He reached tournament finals by playing to the team’s strengths. If he had catered to those who want to shoehorn every big name into the lineup he’d have been out of the job within 2-3 years like all his predecessors.

International football isn’t played that way and he was smart and cynical enough to realise that.
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He played to his strengths, not the team's.
 
cpresc said:
I don’t even know what the nations league is…. It just seems to be more international games squeezing the players and burning everyone out. Why do we even have this given with have the Euros?
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Because it's better and more competitive than friendlies, been a great success so far tbh in Europe. Constantly giving teams competitive matches, even San Marino won a game.

International football has been going on for well over a hundred years now successfully, maybe the club competitions should cut back if you're worried about burn out, Champions League added several games, Club World Cup does too etc.
 
Samid said:
He reached tournament finals by playing to the team’s strengths. If he had catered to those who want to shoehorn every big name into the lineup he’d have been out of the job within 2-3 years like all his predecessors.

International football isn’t played that way and he was smart and cynical enough to realise that.
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Yes but there is some form of middle ground between what Southgate was playing and that disaster tonight. Southgate played too conservative.

Rice essentially on his own in midfield, it was never going to work.
 
He did a good job with England but genuinely think we could get relegated if we got him in here.
 
The way he played was like a manager trying to avoid relegation with a promoted team. Cowardly and utterly conservative. I’m not a fan…
 
We wanted a front foot manager but if we get him it will be a back foot manager.
 
Samid said:
He reached tournament finals by playing to the team’s strengths. If he had catered to those who want to shoehorn every big name into the lineup he’d have been out of the job within 2-3 years like all his predecessors.

International football isn’t played that way and he was smart and cynical enough to realise that.
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He did shoehorn big named players into his lineups.
 
I actually don't buy in to the narrative that he played awful, boring football. Sure, we didn't fly at teams like big Ange does at Tottenham but it was hardly Simeone. I'd say style wise it was middle of the road and reasonably well balanced.

My big issues with Southgate are that he himself is boring, and his him game management is poor. I feel like in International football you can cope with being a mood hoover because you can go weeks / months without being heard from, and the players have minimal interaction. I think in club football it would get old very, very quickly.

Summary - Nice guy, steady guy, nice human, good with the media, boring and dreadful in game decisions.

It's a hard pass for me as Utd manager but I think he's decent for international.
 
Samid said:
Never deserved the ridiculous vitriol. Took his country to several Euro and WC finals/SF. All other countries would die for a return like that from their manager.
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England didn’t win anything, the “return” was nothing.
 
Samid said:
He reached tournament finals by playing to the team’s strengths. If he had catered to those who want to shoehorn every big name into the lineup he’d have been out of the job within 2-3 years like all his predecessors.

International football isn’t played that way and he was smart and cynical enough to realise that.
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This argument has been done to death already in this thread. He had far easier runs than his predecessors and struggled against top opposition every time.

The point about style depends on your objectives. If it's about respectability and minimising the chances of losing to mid-ranking teams, then playing his passive handbreak-on football was fine to a point. Plenty of other international managers do much the same. The difference for me is that England fell short in 3 of the 4 tournaments against sides that were clearly more than the sum of their parts. In 2018 Croatia controlled midfield and therefore the game. In 2021 Italy controlled midfield and the game. In 2024 Spain controlled midfield and the game. Each were a great example of cohesive teams that an edge over their disjointed opponents. Spain and Italy in particular were also a great of example of how to get over the line in international football, where having that extra gear allows you to take control and win things, even against impressive individuals and strong defences.
 
We know a lot of these United players are quite happy to down tools for managers, I doubt they would even pick them up if Southgate became manager of United.
 
Gio said:
In 2018 Croatia controlled midfield and therefore the game. In 2021 Italy controlled midfield and the game. In 2024 Spain controlled midfield and the game. Each were a great example of cohesive teams that an edge over their disjointed opponents. Spain and Italy in particular were also a great of example of how to get over the line in international football, where having that extra gear allows you to take control and win things, even against impressive individuals and strong defences.
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I disagree about England being disjointed against either Croatia or Italy(I also disagree about them being better than Croatia overall or in terms of talent), and Spain at the last Euros were an incredible team with some genuinely exceptional talent, but regardless of all that, all those games have a common denominator: those teams had way better midfielders, and thus way better midfields, than England

England failing to produce a Rodri, a Verratti or a Modric isn't the manager's fault. England had only one viable gameplan against those teams - for most of the game at least - and defend deep and counterattack is at the end of the day, reactive, and thus heavily dependent on your opponent
 
He's a decent enough Wolves level manager. Won't win the league, might get 4th on a good year, probably won't get relegated either.

Just average all around.
 
giorno said:
I disagree about England being disjointed against either Croatia or Italy(I also disagree about them being better than Croatia overall or in terms of talent), and Spain at the last Euros were an incredible team with some genuinely exceptional talent, but regardless of all that, all those games have a common denominator: those teams had way better midfielders, and thus way better midfields, than England

England failing to produce a Rodri, a Verratti or a Modric isn't the manager's fault. England had only one viable gameplan against those teams - for most of the game at least - and defend deep and counterattack is at the end of the day, reactive, and thus heavily dependent on your opponent
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He had less tools to work with 2018 so understood the counter-attacking gameplan. I didn't say England were better than Croatia, but it was fairly rudimental at times and good managers get better ball retention out of their teams. For me in 2021 Southgate did fine as Italy had been the best team in the tournament and they run them fairly close. But the pattern running through those tournaments, and again at the World Cup and at the Euros, was England's broken football. They were outplayed for large parts of the games against Slovakia and Switzerland in 2024, USA in 2022, Scotland and Denmark in 2021. That was not because the opposition were sporting world-class central midfielders.
 
There’s no way he’s even half as bad as a lot of Caffers like to claim. England have had golden generations before; but he’s done better than every manager since 1966.
 
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