Is Ramos the most overrated CB in history?

VVD came to relevance 3 years ago, Ramos has been doing his thing for 15 years now. Defensively he may never reach the absolute top heights of the likes of Maldini but overall he`s by far the greatest CB post 2000.

agreed. VVD might be able to compare himself to Ramos if he carries on at that standard for the next 6-7 years.

are they comparable now, and how they play now, absolutely. But in no way are their careers comparable. VVD gets overrated due to the lack of any other half decent CB in the PL. In the era of Terry, Adams, StaM, Campbell, Rio and Vidic, VVD would be a footnote.
 
Foe me purely in terms of a defender, not someone you can mention in the same breath as all time great, but certainly on the rung below and one of the best of his generation.

Can be hot headed and dirty too but postionally, pace, strength, leadership, desire, in the air both defensively and attacking he has excelled. Wasnt he a world record at the time for a defender? Has been worth every penny for Madrid. Prima Ligas JOhn Terry for his club but also for his country too unlike Terry and a better player too, which is an accolade, as much as I hate Terry and didnt rate him for England, was fantastic for his club, much like Lampard
 
WHat does "his generation" mean? VVD is better than Ramos, imho.

I disagree. VVD does not even come close. Ramos never backs away from a challenge as VVD does regularly. Ramos will throw his body on the line for his team
 
I have always maintained that Ramos is an error prone defender with exceptional physical and attacking skills.

But you know, I think it is an discredit to him, to deny him being a world class player. He may not be your typical no nonsense defender, but he has grown into a player who has won big trophies, not just being a mere cog in the machine, but being one of the star players. He has achieved so much while putting in fantastic performances, not just in terms of important goals but also defensively, it would be ridiculous to not acknowledge him as one of the greatest defenders of his generation.
Would he be in my top 10 of all time? No. If but if I had to rate him as a player overall, he would be above many superior defenders. But that is just my opinion.

And let us not forget, every great defender has moments when their teams save them.
For example, imagine if Barcelona didn't chicken out like they did in Anfield, nobody would have cared to vote for VVD in Ballon Dor and FIFA awards. I mean he was the part of defence which conceded 3 goals in away clash.
 
I know its been a year and a half but...

Op goes to mention the likes of Laporte and Boateng among all time greats :wenger: :lol:

Ramos is an outstanding world class footballer, who happens to be past his peak obviously. Period. Is he the best of all time? Not a chance, saying so would be overrating him, but i dont see anyone claiming that
 
Brilliant CB an absolute all out warrior competitor. Bit if a Keano, red mist but I like that in my players. He’s had a few players sent off against him as well as amassing his own very impressive haul but some of those reds are funny, I mean he’s a proper head case sometimes.
 
One of the things that bothers me, is when someone calls him overrated on the back of certain El Clasico games, while at the same time thinks the
Rio-Vidic partnership was the best thing since sliced bread.

Barca made both look quite silly more than once, doesnt mean they weren`t great though, cause they were indeed great CBs too.
 
agreed. VVD might be able to compare himself to Ramos if he carries on at that standard for the next 6-7 years.

are they comparable now, and how they play now, absolutely. But in no way are their careers comparable. VVD gets overrated due to the lack of any other half decent CB in the PL. In the era of Terry, Adams, StaM, Campbell, Rio and Vidic, VVD would be a footnote.
Vvd is better than Stam honestly.

I know this won't end well.
 
Vvd is better than Stam honestly.

I know this won't end well.
Eeeeeeeeeeeeeh.

Peak Stam? Genuinely not sure. Stam was a better defender. VVD's ability in build up though is exceptional and far superior to Stam's, and overall i think i agree with your take
 
Eeeeeeeeeeeeeh.

Peak Stam? Genuinely not sure. Stam was a better defender. VVD's ability in build up though is exceptional and far superior to Stam's, and overall i think i agree with your take
Yeah, purely from a defensive perspective Stam was better, but I'd take Van Dijk over him for the complete package. Frank de Boer conplemented Stam brilliantly though.
 
I have always maintained that Ramos is an error prone defender with exceptional physical and attacking skills.

But you know, I think it is an discredit to him, to deny him being a world class player. He may not be your typical no nonsense defender, but he has grown into a player who has won big trophies, not just being a mere cog in the machine, but being one of the star players. He has achieved so much while putting in fantastic performances, not just in terms of important goals but also defensively, it would be ridiculous to not acknowledge him as one of the greatest defenders of his generation.
Would he be in my top 10 of all time? No. If but if I had to rate him as a player overall, he would be above many superior defenders. But that is just my opinion.

And let us not forget, every great defender has moments when their teams save them.
For example, imagine if Barcelona didn't chicken out like they did in Anfield, nobody would have cared to vote for VVD in Ballon Dor and FIFA awards. I mean he was the part of defence which conceded 3 goals in away clash.

Not the best defensive CB, but he makes admirable last ditch tackles from time to time like the one on Messi in the most recent El Clasico. Copes very well in a Madrid team which always plays the high line so got to give him credit for that too.

Undoubtedly his biggest selling point is his leadership on the pitch. As seen in last year's CL tie against City, Varane who is supposedly world-class or near to that level absolutely lost his head without Ramos partnering him.

Vvd is better than Stam honestly.

I know this won't end well.

VVD's mobility, balance, reading of the game, passing and skill on the ball is very impressive for a big man. Even against the all-time great PL CBs, I'd say he compares favorably and wouldn't just be an honorable mention.
 
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One of the things that bothers me, is when someone calls him overrated on the back of certain El Clasico games, while at the same time thinks the
Rio-Vidic partnership was the best thing since sliced bread.

Barca made both look quite silly more than once, doesnt mean they weren`t great though, cause they were indeed great CBs too.
disagree, the 2 legs in 08 were a Rio masterclass where he was keeping up with a prime etoo for speed. the 2 final defeats were remembered more for overall team failures and midfield getting dominated than anything to do with rio and vidic. a disingenuous argument to make ramos look good if ever there was 1.
 
disagree, the 2 legs in 08 were a Rio masterclass where he was keeping up with a prime etoo for speed. the 2 final defeats were remembered more for overall team failures and midfield getting dominated than anything to do with rio and vidic. a disingenuous argument to make ramos look good if ever there was 1.

They're not mutually exclusive statements. Rio was great in 2008 (when we set up very defensively) but struggled alongside Vidic in 2009 and 2011. Similarly, you can find games against Barcelona where Ramos has been flawless and games where he's struggled. The point he was making was that the fact he has struggled in some games against Barcelona is not good evidence that he's not an elite defender, because all elite defenders have had exactly the same experience against a team of that calibre.
 
They're not mutually exclusive statements. Rio was great in 2008 (when we set up very defensively) but struggled alongside Vidic in 2009 and 2011. Similarly, you can find games against Barcelona where Ramos has been flawless and games where he's struggled. The point he was making was that the fact he has struggled in some games against Barcelona is not good evidence that he's not an elite defender, because all elite defenders have had exactly the same experience against a team of that calibre.
don't see where the exclusivity belongs, people are not using only those games though to make the suggestion that he may be overrated - which i do believe he is - nor is his example to try to justify that line of argument valid. ramos sample size of clasicos is a lot larger than the times rio and vida played against them rendering the comparison moot, particularly when the mistakes he made in a number of them are quite high profile unlike our duo.

i also don't rate pique highly for a similar reason.
 
175 caps, 23 goals, World champion, 2 x European champion for Spain.
702 official club apps, 102 goals, 39 assists, 5 league trophies, 2 copa del Reys, 4 CL-trophies, 10 x World 11, 8 x UEFA team of the year, 5 x defender of the year in Spain, etc., etc,......

Leader on the pitch, bleads for both club and country and a cnut to play against.
The guy is a fecking legend!
 
don't see where the exclusivity belongs, people are not using only those games though to make the suggestion that he may be overrated - which i do believe he is - nor is his example to try to justify that line of argument valid. ramos sample size of clasicos is a lot larger than the times rio and vida played against them rendering the comparison moot, particularly when the mistakes he made in a number of them are quite high profile unlike our duo.

i also don't rate pique highly for a similar reason.

Agreed we don't have a great sample size to judge Rio from, but from what we do have, the simple analysis is that the only time he played well was when he played in a team with an incredibly low defensive line and two lines in front of him that were built to nullify Barcelona's attack and hit them on sporadic counter attacks. When he played in a slightly more open team, he was left exposed.

Ramos has consistently played with far less defensive protection even against Barcelona, which is what skews the comparison. If Rio struggled to excel in a slightly open team then there's every reason to expect be would have struggled to perform in a completely open team, when facing that attacking power. We can't just ignore that when comparing them.
 
Agreed we don't have a great sample size to judge Rio from, but from what we do have, the simple analysis is that the only time he played well was when he played in a team with an incredibly low defensive line and two lines in front of him that were built to nullify Barcelona's attack and hit them on sporadic counter attacks. When he played in a slightly more open team, he was left exposed.

Ramos has consistently played with far less defensive protection even against Barcelona, which is what skews the comparison. If Rio struggled to excel in a slightly open team then there's every reason to expect be would have struggled to perform in a completely open team, when facing that attacking power. We can't just ignore that when comparing them.
this is where the comparison fails on 2 counts. there isn't enough of a sample size to conclude 1 way making it only an exercise in false equivalence. the other is that the headline of any of our 2 finals defeats isn't by any stretch of imagination rio or vidic making mistakes, the failings were tactical and on the entire team, unlike quite a few of the gaffes Ramos had made. you could turn your logic against itself and claim that Ramos benefitted from playing in a counter attacking system which is what Madrid exclusively used when they played barca after a point.
 
this is where the comparison fails on 2 counts. there isn't enough of a sample size to conclude 1 way making it only an exercise in false equivalence. the other is that the headline of any of our 2 finals defeats isn't by any stretch of imagination rio or vidic making mistakes, the failings were tactical and on the entire team, unlike quite a few of the gaffes Ramos had made. you could turn your logic against itself and claim that Ramos benefitted from playing in a counter attacking system which is what Madrid exclusively used when they played barca after a point.
Such as?
 
I can't be bothered to give you example after example and compilation after compilation to illustrate my point. Let's just say that that reputation exists for a reason, even you might be able to accept at least that.
 
I can't be bothered to give you example after example and compilation after compilation to illustrate my point. Let's just say that that reputation exists for a reason, even you might be able to accept at least that.
The reputation? You mean the red cards? Sure, that is an issue. THE issue, pretty much. If he had better control over himself we'd be talking about him in the same breath as Baresi at this point

You're also using the same false equivalency you pointed out in your argument about playing against barcelona: sergio made a few individual gaffes against them precisely because he played them over 40 times in his career. Conversely, Rio and Vidic only played them 4 times(and two of those in 2008 - a mediocre barcelona that was falling apart, despite the individual quality. Against the same barcelona side Ramos shut down ronaldinho at camp nou)
 
You're also using the same false equivalency you pointed out in your argument about playing against barcelona: sergio made a few individual gaffes against them precisely because he played them over 40 times in his career. Conversely, Rio and Vidic only played them 4 times(and two of those in 2008 - a mediocre barcelona that was falling apart, despite the individual quality. Against the same barcelona side Ramos shut down ronaldinho at camp nou)
there is no false equivalence, someone else brought those 2 into this discussion and i only pointed out the fallacy in that comparison. as for the rest, it is but obvious that when you have a much larger sample size you are bound to have more of both examples that will prove and disprove what you want to look for. depending on where you come from of course. do you think red cards and rashness as also defensive lapses are worth overlooking which is what he is famous for apart from the goals he scores out of sheer force of personality?
People want to dismiss that rijkaard barca team but forget that only 2 yrs ago it was comfortably the best team in europe with one of the best strikers in europe still playing for them and it became the best team in europe with quite a few of the same players only in a year's time. you can't move the goalposts when you want to lend credence to your argument, it can go both ways.
 
We dont need to go over individual errors, as that can be tedious, but its not true that United defenders didnt make big individual errors at times, of course the way team set up makes things easier(or harder), but it wasnt all collective errors.

In any case, i`ve seen you guys have debated what i brought up extensively while i was away, so i dont think there is much left on this topic.

All of them are top CBs, we can at least agree on that?
 
Oh please, Ramos isnt fit to lace either Rio's or Vida's boots. I'm baffled at what sport some of you guys watch.
 
Oh please, Ramos isnt fit to lace either Rio's or Vida's boots. I'm baffled at what sport some of you guys watch.
Funny how I completely agree with your opinion on certain players (Kimmich) while totally disagreeing about others (Ramos).

Sergio Ramos has the greatest trophy cabinet of any defender in history. That is not a coincidence.
 
Op goes to mention the likes of Laporte and Boateng among all time greats :wenger: :lol:
Boateng has won a World Cup and two trebles. He is a legend, not as much as Ramos but still a legend nonetheless.
 
Sergio Ramos may be the greatest player in the world. I'd take him over Ronaldo and Messi.
 
No bump after the masterclass yesterday.
You know what they say Attack is the best defense but when your attack is as shit as theirs has been for the past 2 years your defense will get exposed.
He was lucky he played for a Madrid side that could outscore any team by x3 at any given time
 
You know what they say Attack is the best defense but when your attack is as shit as theirs has been for the past 2 years your defense will get exposed.
He was lucky he played for a Madrid side that could outscore any team by x3 at any given time
He was part of the reason they could outscore opponents. Their defense and attack didn't exist in parallel universes. When not attacking well, any team that doesn't play with a deep line will struggle defensively in the current footballing trend.
 
He was part of the reason they could outscore opponents. Their defense and attack didn't exist in parallel universes. When not attacking well, any team that doesn't play with a deep line will struggle defensively in the current footballing trend.
Yeah but that wasn't cause of his amazing defensive abilites
 
Yeah but that wasn't cause of his amazing defensive abilites
I remember reading after our defeat to Barcelona in 2011, one of the areas Fergie identified to catch up to them was deploying faster and more mobile defenders to push higher up and squeeze teams like Barcelona. Rio and especially Vidic were simply incapable of playing that way. Did it make them bad defenders? Of course not. Just unsuitable to every stylistic and tactical demand. Ramos is the best defender at that particular defensive requirement. Results and trophies suggest that it is a requirement that is more likely to be successful at the highest level in the last decade at least. That was not necessarily the case before.

It is pointless to argue about "pure" defensive skills when there is no such a thing. They keep changing constantly to accommodate and serve new styles and tactical structures, not to mention the new laws in the game. The only thing that matter is how much does a player serve the collective from whichever position they play in. In that regards, I can't think of a player who served his team more from the position of center back. Does it make him the best defender? I would say it's semantics.
 
You know what they say Attack is the best defense but when your attack is as shit as theirs has been for the past 2 years your defense will get exposed.
He was lucky he played for a Madrid side that could outscore any team by x3 at any given time
Madrid never had a great defensive record, even when they swept all before them in Europe.