Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?

Zen86 said:
and later the billions he has spent at City to assemble the strongest squad in the world. The bar is now higher to be the top club in world football, but that’s driven by the resources required rather than managerial prowess.
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As if United, Chelsea etc. are not spending billions. If money was the solution, United would not be in the same mess they have been for years after SAF left.

That's what Guardiola brings to the table. with him, you are guaranteed for success, at least in terms of league domination. There's no other manager you can claim the same for. We saw how often great managers fall from grace like Mourinho, Conte, Tuchel or even Ancelotti, never happened with Pep. The crazy thing is Pep's teams manage to dominate even when they lose.

Even at a ruthless club like Bayern, they didn't want him to leave despite not winning the UCL, obviously, they know a thing or two about greatness.
 
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heraklion said:
As if United, Chelsea etc. are not spending billions. If money was the solution, United would not be in the same mess they have been for years after SAF left.

That's what Guardiola brings to the table. with him, you are guaranteed for success, at least in terms of league domination. There's no other manager you can claim the same for. We saw how often great managers fall from grace like Mourinho, Conte, Tuchel or even Ancelotti, never happened with Pep. The crazy thing is Pep's teams manage to dominate even when they lose.

Even at a ruthless club like Bayern, they didn't want him to leave despite not winning the UCL, obviously, they know a thing or two about greatness.
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It’s quite eye watering what City have spent since 2008, not just on transfer fees. And half of it isn’t even on the books. So yes, money is the key to their success. Not Pep.
 
CoopersDream said:
It's quite incredible the lengths people go to discredit Pep's success at Barca.
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Right? The mental gymnastics are an amazing and at the same time, a ridiculous sight to see.
I guess that's what message boards are for though, seeing armchair experts trying hard to contradict opinions of professionals of the game.
 
CoopersDream said:
It's quite incredible the lengths people go to discredit Pep's success at Barca.
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Is it 'incredible'? As in impossible to believe? It's a Manchester United forum and you're talking about a drug cheat that manages one of our biggest rivals. Do you find it impossible to believe that united fans will look to discredit him?

For what it's worth he's a brilliant coach. I've of the best to do it. A drug cheat, and a general cheat, and a coach that's benefited from having some of the best squads and the most money but a brilliant coach nonetheless
 
Pickle85 said:
Is it 'incredible'? As in impossible to believe? It's a Manchester United forum and you're talking about a drug cheat that manages one of our biggest rivals. Do you find it impossible to believe that united fans will look to discredit him?
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The incredible thing is that people try to discredit him by making up alternative facts.
 
Pickle85 said:
Is it 'incredible'? As in impossible to believe? It's a Manchester United forum and you're talking about a drug cheat that manages one of our biggest rivals. Do you find it impossible to believe that united fans will look to discredit him?

For what it's worth he's a brilliant coach. I've of the best to do it. A drug cheat, and a general cheat, and a coach that's benefited from having some of the best squads and the most money but a brilliant coach nonetheless
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Still is "baffling", "incredible" or "whatever" if some people actually believe some of those lengths, no matter if Pep is a rival coach or not.
 
CoopersDream said:
It's quite incredible the lengths people go to discredit Pep's success at Barca.
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Anyone would think Barca was a tiny club with no money from the way some people talk about what he did there, ive even seen claims that he brought Xavi, Iniesta, and Messi through to the first team when the truth is they were all playing regularly for the first team before he arrived and the only players he brought through were Pedro and Bojan.
 
Pep’s teams play the most dominant football I’ve seen in my lifetime, even if they don’t always win. Within individual games, and within leagues, there’s no coach like him. His European record isn’t the best, though.
 
It's clear that Pep is an unbelievable coach, absolutely no doubt. The question of him being the greatest can never truly be answered. As such he has never really tested himself. I couldn't imagine him being a success at a low level club for example but when he has fantastic players at his disposal I don't think I've ever seen teams as dominant as Pep has made his teams.
 
The only thing that remains to be seen is can he adapt to the times when someone new comes along and reinvents the wheel, so to speak. Guardiola essentially was the peak of the late 00's, to now, possession based Tiki-Taka style football. What made Ferguson so great was every single time there was a new style of play invented that rendered previous stuff obsolete, he always completely adapted quickly. In the late 80's, early 90's, Fergie played with a more defensive mindset as was the approach back then. Flat line of 4 defensive defenders, Midfielders who could all put a shift in, and two strikers to provide most of the goalscoring/attacking threat. In the late 90's, early 00's, he switched to a dynamic midfield of ball carrying, ball playing CM's to be able to quickly switch it to the Wide players. These wide players would carry the majority of the creative threat, one of the forwards would drop deeper and intersect the lines whilst the other led the line. The paradigm completely shifted in the mid to late 00's, where your Beckhams, Giggs, Cameronesi's of the world stopped being as effective. Instead Fergie pivoted to Inside Forwards, using dribbling and ball carrying widemen who could both carry a low ball threat as well as a direct goal threat. United went from a flat 4-4-2 to a more 4-3-3 style over a period of 2 decades.

Guardiola's style since Barca, Bayern and City has always been the same, with some tweaks here and there based on the players he has at his disposal. When, the paradigm completely shifts, it will be interesting to see if he adapts too.

As well as doing it from the bottom up, I guess, but he'll never get that opportunity to. He's not exactly going to join Bolton Wanderers and try to make them PL Contenders is he.
 
There are some good criticisms in this thread, the doping and the 115 against City stuff and some other good points.

But one angle I've seen that is not valid is the whole "he never managed a small club and got them to overachieve" line. Of course he's not going to go to Luton Town or Cadiz after winning CLs. Literally no manager would do that unless they completely fall from grace and are forced to do that.

If a manager has to start at a smaller club and build up, that's a feather in their cap for sure (like Ferguson at Aberdeen or Xabi at Leverkusen this year) but if a manager gets a bigger club at the start like Pep and wins the CL, its absurd to think he has to go manage some "small club" to prove himself. It's like that silly "Messi never played at Stoke City on a rainy Tuesday night" line. There are valid critiques for why Pep is not the greatest manager ever, but "never managed a small club" is definitely not one of them.
 
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oneniltothearsenal said:
There are some good criticisms in this thread, the doping and the 115 against City stuff and some other good points.

But one angle I've seen that is not valid is the whole "he never managed a small club and got them to overachieve" line. Of course he's not going to go to Luton Town or Cadiz after winning CLs. Literally no manager would do that unless they completely fall from grace and are forced to do that.

If a manager has to start at a smaller club and build up, that's a feather in their cap for sure (like Ferguson at Aberdeen or Xabi at Leverkusen this year) but if a manager gets a bigger club at the start like Pep and wins the CL, its absurd to think he has to go manage some "small club" to prove himself. It's like that silly "Messi never played at Stoke City on a rainy Tuesday night" line. There are valid critiques for why Pep is not the greatest manager ever, but "never managed a small club" is definitely not one of them.
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True, the question has to be reduced to simply asking "has he ever overachieved with a team" and arguably he hasn't. He also never has failed at a job, but simply he does lack some success to consider him the GOAT for me. What did he do in his career?

Serial PL winner with the richest PL club - that's what you can and should expect
One time CL winner with the richest PL club - that's at best on par, if not slightly underwhelming
Serial BL winner with the richest BL club (which had won a treble before he arrived) - that's what you can and should expect
Never reaching a final with a treble winner but at least getting close to it - that's at best on par, if not slightly underwhelming
Serial La Liga winner in a duel against the biggest club in world football, with the core of the Spanish national team and the GOAT Messi - that's a very good result and probably it's fair to say he got them rocking much faster and better than expected
Two CL wins with Barca - very good result, no denying that.

So the only time he came close to truly overachieving was with Barca, but considering some things that happened (Övrebö, Doping allegiations, bribing La Liga refs) there are even asterisks to that.

In the end his most impressive success probably is that his teams never have a true off season, he is always delivering silverware. That's something no other manager can claim for himself.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
There are some good criticisms in this thread, the doping and the 115 against City stuff and some other good points.

But one angle I've seen that is not valid is the whole "he never managed a small club and got them to overachieve" line. Of course he's not going to go to Luton Town or Cadiz after winning CLs. Literally no manager would do that unless they completely fall from grace and are forced to do that.

If a manager has to start at a smaller club and build up, that's a feather in their cap for sure (like Ferguson at Aberdeen or Xabi at Leverkusen this year) but if a manager gets a bigger club at the start like Pep and wins the CL, its absurd to think he has to go manage some "small club" to prove himself. It's like that silly "Messi never played at Stoke City on a rainy Tuesday night" line. There are valid critiques for why Pep is not the greatest manager ever, but "never managed a small club" is definitely not one of them.
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I think it depends a lot on the wording here. It's not a negative on Pep, as in the word criticism, but it's a positive on others, so when comparing managers, it gives them a bonus.

As of that, it comes down to how we wheigh our criteria, for some it is the main aspect of the managers job, while others rather focus on hard facts like silverware.
 
Fobal said:
Still is "baffling", "incredible" or "whatever" if some people actually believe some of those lengths, no matter if Pep is a rival coach or not.
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Not what was said though. The poster said that the lengths people go to on a united forum to discredit him are incredible. They're not.
 
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HisNameIsEarl said:
I think it depends a lot on the wording here. It's not a negative on Pep, as in the word criticism, but it's a positive on others, so when comparing managers, it gives them a bonus.

As of that, it comes down to how we wheigh our criteria, for some it is the main aspect of the managers job, while others rather focus on hard facts like silverware.
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Yup. For me the most important criteria in a player is their ability or versatility to play in every league.

This is why my GOAT is different to others because we weigh things in different Criteria.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
There are some good criticisms in this thread, the doping and the 115 against City stuff and some other good points.

But one angle I've seen that is not valid is the whole "he never managed a small club and got them to overachieve" line. Of course he's not going to go to Luton Town or Cadiz after winning CLs. Literally no manager would do that unless they completely fall from grace and are forced to do that.

If a manager has to start at a smaller club and build up, that's a feather in their cap for sure (like Ferguson at Aberdeen or Xabi at Leverkusen this year) but if a manager gets a bigger club at the start like Pep and wins the CL, its absurd to think he has to go manage some "small club" to prove himself. It's like that silly "Messi never played at Stoke City on a rainy Tuesday night" line. There are valid critiques for why Pep is not the greatest manager ever, but "never managed a small club" is definitely not one of them.
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I completely agree that Pep can't be criticised for not managing 'lesser clubs'. It's a positive for him, that his stock has remained high enough for him to continuously only manage 'heavyweights' during the past 16 years (and when he leaves City he'll surely be in very high demand).

Although it's also fair to point out that numerous other legendary managers, like Fergie and Mourinho, have 'underdog triumphes' on their records that he doesn't have, which is a positive for them.
 
I believe it's more of a modern era issue that creates this debate. The creation of mega-clubs in this age of overinflation and oil-state/oligarch ownership. Sadly, a few years down the line, what Ferguson achieved with Aberdeen will be a distant memory. And by the end if his career, Pep will be in the discussion for best manager ever as the person who spearheaded City's rise to dominance, but he will always lack a good football story (Barca already looks like ages ago). But this is a broader issue and Pep is the symptom, not the core of the problem.

Some are also being disingenuous in their criticism. Apart from a brief slump in his career after Bayern Munich, Ancelotti has been managing loaded clubs since he went to Parma in the mid 90s. Nobody's holding that against him, though.

Perhaps, it's because his tactical plan isn't that dominant. After all, what's football without the element of surprise and a sense of gamble? And maybe that's the issue with Pep. His style was a breath of fresh air at a time when Mou and Rafa were battling it out to see who will be more defensive. Showed the world that you don't need 10 men behind the ball to control football's chaotic nature. But now, he's become the monster he helped defeat. Everyone expects City to win, no matter the opponent. His squads are like Xerxes' army of immortals. Cards and injuries barely matter. Even neutrals i know (who can't be bothered with the charges and just switch on to watch high quality matches in the PL and the CL) are getting tired of it. I also think it adds points to Klopp who, despite the lack of silverware, has won many neutrals over exactly because he's embraced this chaos.
 
Hard to say if he's that good as he has always managed at clubs with crushing advantages in wealth and playing staff.
 
I dont think saying Pep has rarely overachieved is comparable to the Messi has never done it in the PL argument. A manager has to manage an entire club, coach the players work with a budget etc. A player simply has do the best to perform his role for a team on the pitch. That's something different entirely. If Klopp and Pep's roles were reversed i don't believe for a second he could transform Liverpool like Klopp has and rack up title challenges and and a win against a club with unlimited money and a world class manager and getting record points at that.
 
Gehrman said:
You know what i meant.
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What you meant doesn't apply to Guardiola, in fact it doesn't apply to almost everyone who worked outside british football since the 1950s at least. And nowadays barely applies within british football, too
 
giorno said:
What you meant doesn't apply to Guardiola, in fact it doesn't apply to almost everyone who worked outside british football since the 1950s at least. And nowadays barely applies within british football, too
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Well he is the manager of a football club. I was talking about whether its his decision to expand the stadium etc.
 
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Gehrman said:
Well he is the manager of a football club. I was talking about whether its his decision to expand the stadium etc.
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Yes but your point is wrong. In the same way "A player simply has do the best to perform his role for a team on the pitch" Guardiola simply has to do the best to coach the first team and speak to the media. That's it.

It's certainly a bigger role, but still a very specific one. He's not a CEO
 
giorno said:
Yes but your point is wrong. In the same way "A player simply has do the best to perform his role for a team on the pitch" Guardiola simply has to do the best to coach the first team and speak to the media. That's it.

It's certainly a bigger role, but still a very specific one. He's not a CEO
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He still has the biggest say in transfers unless he's an interim manager. Which means he has to work within a budget. I know there is a DOF etc but ultimately he is the one with the most power is Pep also due to his pedigree of course.
 
Gehrman said:
They played brilliant dominant football ref decisions aside.
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Its easy to be dominant when you have the best squad in the world with players like Messi, Iniesta, and Xavi in their prime and are playing much inferior opposition every week and have the budget to buy the best players from the other clubs in your league.
 
RedRocket9908 said:
Its easy to be dominant when you have the best squad in the world with players like Messi, Iniesta, and Xavi in their prime and are playing much inferior opposition every week.
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Their 5-0 against Real Madrid is one of greatest team performances of all time when its comes to synergy. And Barca were planning to sell Xavi to us, it was pep who convinced them it he had a role in the team. People weren't raving about Barca the same way in 2008. Despite having the same players.
 
Gehrman said:
He still has the biggest say in transfers unless he's an interim manager.
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No, he doesn't. That's Beguiristain's job
Which means he has to work within a budget.
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No, he has to work with what he is given. Budget is not something he has anything to do with
 
stefan92 said:
True, the question has to be reduced to simply asking "has he ever overachieved with a team" and arguably he hasn't. He also never has failed at a job, but simply he does lack some success to consider him the GOAT for me. What did he do in his career?
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The thing with the overachieving part for Pep is revisionist and changing the metric when it gets to Pep. Did anyone have City under Mancini or Pellegrini as favorite to win the CL any season before Pep? The moment Pep joins it suddenly becomes Treble or nothing. Pep doesn't win the CL with city which they've never won in their existence then he failed.

Same with his Barcelona side, did anyone in summer 2008 think it's within expected achievements for Barcelona to win the treble and sextuple in the next 14months? Pep does it and it suddenly becomes oh that's the minimum any coach could have done that. Barcelona post Pep have made 1 CL final despite having all those Messi Xavi Iniesta plus more and it's 12yrs already. When at Barcelona he was losing close semi finals. He left and we have lost count of the humiliating exits

Pep can join current Man Utd or Chelsea win them a league and we will hear that's the expectation anyway. Anyone could have won with those teams. When you have Casemiro Varane Thiago Silva, Palmer world record Caicedo Maguire Enzo. Give random CAF poster than team and he will win a treble
 
giorno said:
No, he doesn't. That's Beguiristain's job

No, he has to work with what he is given. Budget is not something he has anything to do with
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Well the clubs budget has everything to do with what players are at his disposal. And you don't think Pep has a massive say in transfers at City? Like if he tells Beguiristain that really doesn't want that player, do you think he will be signed?
 
RedRocket9908 said:
Its easy to be dominant when you have the best squad in the world with players like Messi, Iniesta, and Xavi in their prime and are playing much inferior opposition every week and have the budget to buy the best players from the other clubs in your league.
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After Pep how many CL finals did Xavi Messi Iniesta play in?. It's easy so they should be making those final pretty easily
 
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