Definitely the most talented coach I've ever seen. I think at the end of his career, he will probably be regarded as the greatest of all time.
Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?
- Thread starter Irrational.
- Start date
Yea ok, when you get the lead anyway. I imagine Real Madrid traveled around 10 meters total in the second half of that game :P
The tiki taka style of that Barcelona side the world had never ever seen before. They were utterly dominant to a point we have never seen in club football. It was basically a cheat code for the first 3 years of Pep in Barcelona.
Horrendous to face and at the time something completely alien to the sport how they held the ball for 65 - 80 percent. Remember fitness has moved on a bit since then so players just ran out of gas chasing shadows.
Mourinho was basically the only man who got a glove on the guy under huge underdog odds both in Madrid and Inter.
They changed every managers thinking. The players helped but those tactics despite sometimes having a soft defence have moulded the game post 2008-09. We’ve seen managers appear purely to combat it.
They were so all conquering despite failing basically in Europe to win 3 back to back titles due to Mourinho having his greatest night.
Barcelona 100% should have won 3-4 European cups in a row. It’s an anomaly they didn’t.
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I've not watched the 2009 final in a good few years but I remember the last time I watched it thinking it was nowhere near as bad as I remembered. We were definitely capable of beating Barca and on another day we would've won. 2011 is a different story, we just didn't have the team to match them especially with the tactics SAF wanted to play. 1st half we were outplayed but definitely looked in it then by the 2nd half we were chasing shadows.
Banned for doping as a player, the whole Cugat blood thing at Barcelona, underwhelmed at Bayern, City under investigation for 115 charges/financial doping.
Undoubtedly an incredible coach but his career will always have asterisks and question marks. Has never really had to struggle, walked into every tailor made job for him. What he's done with those players is still in isolation very impressive but yeah, dunno how you can call someone the best ever when they have so many question marks against them.
Undoubtedly an incredible coach but his career will always have asterisks and question marks. Has never really had to struggle, walked into every tailor made job for him. What he's done with those players is still in isolation very impressive but yeah, dunno how you can call someone the best ever when they have so many question marks against them.
Says more about that barca team than the manager tbh. He never recreated that style at bayern, or city until the last two three years after spending billions.
Well you need the right players to implement a style. Fergies blitz counter attack couldn't have worked without Giggs and Kanchelskis.
Still Barca in 2007/2008 didnt play like Peps 2008/2009 despite not buying any players. Of course the template was there but he tuned it to perfection.
As everyone else have said though. Pep will retire as the most successful manager of all time, but he's always ever managed with the odds wildly in his favour due to merit of his instant succes with Barca.
I don't personally believe he could punch above his weight like Klopp or Saf. He's a luxury manager so far so to speak.
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Of course I'm not taking credit away from him, it takes a special manager to bring the best out of those special players and he did. I'm just rejecting the notion of using that period to prove he is the greatest of all time. Like many fans, I value more on how someone handles adversity rather than hitting the highest heights with an already special team, possibly the best in history. And in my eyes, he fecked off right before the rebuild.
No
Is he the greatest manager in City's history ? Yes
Is he the greatest manager in Bayern's ? No
Is he the greatest manager in Barcelona's ? Yes?
Is he the greatest manager in the PL's ? No... but he could very well achieve that.
Is he the greatest manager in the UCL ? He will be by the end of his career
Is he the greatest manager in Bayern's ? No
Is he the greatest manager in Barcelona's ? Yes?
Is he the greatest manager in the PL's ? No... but he could very well achieve that.
Is he the greatest manager in the UCL ? He will be by the end of his career
Yeah I agree with some of that. I think he should have won 3 European cups (at least in Barcelona) and one at Bayern. 2-3 at City by now.
He’s actually underperformed a lot in Europe considering the players he’s had. Huge advantage over anyone each and every season. The man has 1 European cup in about 12 tries if I’m not mistaken?
That’s pretty poor in all honesty given his teams. Maybe his style demands a lot in training so they tire to get beaten by inferior counter attacking sides later in the season?
Questions really need to be asked in Europe. You can’t just say you need 22 world class players. Mourinho would have won more in Europe, Sir Alex and Ancelotti too. This is obvious if they had his advantages.
Not for me. He's only ever coached the best group of players on the planet and looks to have cheated his way to a lot of his success.
What did he really manage? Coached yeah, but managed?
He's the best at what he does though. Undeniably.
He's the best at what he does though. Undeniably.
Pretty sure he has 3 CLs.
2 in Barcelona and one in City. It’s not great is it reading back the players he’s had. We measure this guy on a different scale. He’s had the best of the best.
He’s basically had the best side on the planet at Bayern for a couple of years, Barcelona 4 years, City the past half decade.
One European cup since he left Barcelona… it’s not all that good reading.
Sir Alex had the best side on the planet one/two years in 2008… maybe 2007 too at a push. He won 2 for 2 as we suprised people in 99.
Not 3 in 10 years as the top side in Europe. 2 of those with Messi a literal god of football in the team.
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all of this with the additional factor that while his teams are impressively dominant and brilliantly coached, they are terrible to watch. The madrid game midweek typified it - every time they got the ball they ignored any opportunity to improvise or do something quickly, just worked the ball until they could set up their formation with the back line about 4 yards from goal. Over and over and over and over. Impressive, dominant, but like watching a training routine performed for 90 minutes.
Oh yeah his teams are miles away from being the most entertaining. Just robotic and sterile.
Ancelotti has 4 CL coaching Juve Milan, Chelsea PSG Bayern Madrid with tonnes of legendary players2 in Barcelona and one in City. It’s not great is it reading back the players he’s had. We measure this guy on a different scale. He’s had the best of the best.
He’s basically had the best side on the planet at Bayern for a couple of years, Barcelona 4 years, City the past half decade.
One European cup since he left Barcelona… it’s not all that good reading.
Sir Alex had the best side on the planet one/two years in 2008… maybe 2007 too at a push. He won 2 for 2 as we suprised people in 99.
Not 3 in 10 years as the top side in Europe. 2 of those with Messi a literal god of football in the team.
Pep didn't come up with tiki-taka, and I don't think their style of play was the reason they were so dominant. They just had the strongest squad football had ever seen. They had world class players in practically every position and nobody could match their level of sheer talent.
From Wikipedia:
The style is primarily associated with the Spain national team since 2006 by the managers Luis Aragonés and Vicente del Bosque.[2][3][4][5] Tiki-taka methods were eventually embraced by the La Liga club Barcelona from 2009, especially during the era of manager Pep Guardiola; however, Guardiola distanced himself and the club from the style: "I loathe all that passing for the sake of it", stating, "Barça didn't do tiki-taka!"
Not really sure that's true, Pep always said if he doesn't win the CL he has failed.
It's also not the same because as I already mention, Pep's had the best team by miles in Europe many times over the years, unlike Fergie who hardly had the best team when he won the CL, let alone when he didn't.
4th imho
SAF
Jupp
Carlo
Pep
SAF
Jupp
Carlo
Pep
Saf failed to land playes like R9, Ronaldinho and Batistuta due to the wage structure despite being the richest club in the world. If he could spend unleashed like post Saf, i think he would have dominated. Rio said as much, when lvg was spending, that if Saf had spent like that he would have at least 2 more ucl's during his time there. Conjecture of course.
That Spain side was god awful to watch, tiki taka in its purest, most painful to watch form. Especially from about 2010 onwards. The only reason Barcelona were slightly easier on the eye was Messi, who could make up for the shortfalls of tiki taka with his ability to open up the opposition.
Agreed. Most boring WC win in a while. At least they showed their skill in the euro 2012 final where they went all out, but in general In Pep's Barca side they dominated possession but the magic was peak Messi.
For all the creaming of Pep’s Barcelona, they wouldn’t have amounted to very much without Messi, inarguably one of the all time greats. Personally I think they would have struggled to score goals without him and probably not have had a great deal of success, despite being strong across the rest of the pitch.
This hits the nails on the head.
1. Doping....He doped as a player, has had a long time association with Ramon Segura, the godfather of modern sports doping. There a lot of unproven, but legitimate question marks over the doping of his Barcelona team. The Spanish authorities brushed that investigation under the carpet because it would have related to the National team and their World cup and Euros titles. But you look at his teams, and see how they run so much more, with so much more intensity than other teams, and don't get tired, and you have to wonder how.......I genuinely believe he has had his teams doping the majority of his career, just like he himself did as a player. He was never cleared of those charges on merit, he ended up escaping on a technicality.
2. Refereeing scandal......His time at Barca also coincided with the period that Barca allegedly had the head Spanish referee on the payroll. Shady as feck.
3. Inherited one of the most naturally talented squads in the history of football at Barca. With maybe the greatest player of all time to be a difference maker.
4. Achieved nothing of any real note at Bayern. Won the league with the most expense, well paid squad in the division. Joining them when they were already the most dominant side there. In fact they won the treble the season before. If anything, he made them worse because he didn't do much in Europe, and got dismantled a few times. Took his dodgy doctor with him.
5. Joined the richest club in the world, with unlimited resources. Ploughed through players until he found the ones that fit, without consequences. Has been part of the set up that has 115 financial doping charges against them. Basically built an empire on the back of systemic, rampant cheating.
I'm not going to say he isn't a great coach. Despite all the above, he definitely is. But he's always joined the best, the richest, or the strongest. He's always had the most resources, or inherited the best players. He's never built a team up from nothing, or with limited resources. He's never managed a small team, and gotten them to overachieve. There are a lot of holes in his resume, and more than one's fair share of shady doubts about his means and practices.
He may be one of, if not the, greatest managers of all time when you have unlimited resources, or a dominance over your immediate environment; but what sort of a fecking criteria is that. Way more managers I have more reverence for.
Exactly right. Messi was that one player that could disrupt any system by beating opponents at will and destroying defensive shapes. Without Messi, I doubt that team would've won even half of what they did. You can see it in all his subsequent teams.
Excellent point. Most often when I watched those Barca sides and it often came down to Messi making a play that won the match. And that's despite having that incredible midfield. Pep didn't have a Messi at Bayern, though he did have a great collection of attacking talents amongst the best in the world. But he also didn't have a true competitor to league titles ala the Real sides and still had a stacked squad miles ahead of all else in Germany, but in Europe found himself stifled in knockout rounds. At City, it's basically having DeBruyne winning matches most often when he's fit and available and the same stifled CL knockout results except for one season of glory.
I remember 2009 being about Ronaldo trying too hard to prove a point
That might be but he also was the only player who threatened the keeper.
No. I mean he's in the debate but in order to be the best ever, he'd have to go join a team that isn't already in a vastly superior position to every other team in their league, and put them there.
The idea Klopp, Ferguson, etc. wouldn't have been successful managing that Barcelona team, Bayern and then City after they had cheated over 100 times JUST to make sure no one could compete with them, is beyond stupid really.
I think you can put him in the conversation, but if you put his success against the level of expectation with the teams he's managed and their situations at the time, he's not exactly performed miracles. He's come in amd dobe the job he's been expected to do.
1 champions league in 12 attempts without having Lionel Messi to help also isn't really pulling up any trees considering he's been given the tools to be competitive every single year.
The idea Klopp, Ferguson, etc. wouldn't have been successful managing that Barcelona team, Bayern and then City after they had cheated over 100 times JUST to make sure no one could compete with them, is beyond stupid really.
I think you can put him in the conversation, but if you put his success against the level of expectation with the teams he's managed and their situations at the time, he's not exactly performed miracles. He's come in amd dobe the job he's been expected to do.
1 champions league in 12 attempts without having Lionel Messi to help also isn't really pulling up any trees considering he's been given the tools to be competitive every single year.
They’d have still dominated possession and suffocated teams, but it was safety-first football that would’ve resulted in a lot of stalemates or being picked off on the counter without Messi’s ability to create something out of nothing with a moment of brilliance.
Talk of Pep revolutionising football is laughable. The only thing that changed IMO was the rise of the stacked “super team” with the squad that he had at Barcelona (Messi being the key component of that, plus Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets etc), and later the billions he has spent at City to assemble the strongest squad in the world. The bar is now higher to be the top club in world football, but that’s driven by the resources required rather than managerial prowess.
He didn’t really do anything of note at Bayern, achieved arguably the bare minimum with a team that had just swept to a treble. City have ploughed so much resource into their squad that there’s been talk of trebles and quadruples for years, before Pep even arrived.
This discussion should also consider the shadow of cheating/substances that has followed his playing career.
Twice as a player and then always choosing clubs financially strong enough to get him whatever he wanted.
FFP 115 is the latest.
Twice as a player and then always choosing clubs financially strong enough to get him whatever he wanted.
FFP 115 is the latest.
I know what he is. He is Pep Guardiola is my idol
Mourinho doesn't belong here. He had all the resources he could wanted at Chelsea and then at Real. He's definitely a few tiers below based on his entire career.
Ucl wise he's not.
Not sure what you mean here
Fair point, he won a ucl with Porto and then treble with Inter. Knocking out Pep's peak Barca. But yeah he was backed to hilt at Chelsea and Madrid.
With 10 men as well after the Busquets dive.