I understand you’ve been following football for only 5 years.
Thanks for your input.
Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?
- Thread starter Irrational.
- Start date
Thanks for your input.
I'm bald and I hate Pep for what he's done to our community. Feck him and the horse he rode in on.
So... what was his revolution? Positional play and emphasis on position, like the Dutch with Cruyff in the 70s? Using a false nine like Hidegkuti in the 50s?
Ancelotti > Klopp > Pep > SAF
Wtf
Let's hope it's that you don't understand the difference between > and <, rather than your terrible football opinion.
Bit sad he gets 4 in a row though, what the heck is up with Arsenal and Liverpool both collapsing in the most crucial part of the season?
If there was one season to dethrone them, it was this one.
If there was one season to dethrone them, it was this one.
Liverpool collapsing is most welcome. Le Arse is the one I need to step up.
Click bait statement. To be ignored.
Been seeing a lot of the "park the bus" chat today. It's the way the Abu Dhabi football project (and all Guardiola's previous teams) play that causes that.
They are set up and trained to hog possession for most of the match and swarm all over the opposition, effectively wiping out any chance of a proper football match by smothering them and recovering the ball before the other team gets over half way.
90% of the time that works but there's one glaring weakness that means if a team can get up the pitch against them, they'll likely get a decent chance. Madrid were good enough to capitalise four times over the two legs which is a lot more than most teams do.
I don't think they wanted to "park the bus". They just couldn't get out due to the way City play, still managed to knock them out, so fair play to them.
Because he coached them...?
"It is worth remembering what the City project is for. This remains at bottom a public relations exercise staged by a sovereign state with a questionable human rights record, but intent on building a post-carbon economy.
City are by their own accounts the most financially powerful club in world football. Vast dumps of cash have been thrown at this thing, billionaire will-to-power applied to football’s laughably inadequate governance. This is sport as foreign policy, backed by the laughable fiction that in doing so the ruling monarchy of Abu Dhabi is breaking open a cartel, sticking up for the little guy, outsiders against the overclass and all the rest of it.
It is a grotesque spectacle on many levels"
City are by their own accounts the most financially powerful club in world football. Vast dumps of cash have been thrown at this thing, billionaire will-to-power applied to football’s laughably inadequate governance. This is sport as foreign policy, backed by the laughable fiction that in doing so the ruling monarchy of Abu Dhabi is breaking open a cartel, sticking up for the little guy, outsiders against the overclass and all the rest of it.
It is a grotesque spectacle on many levels"
Good old Barney
Complete humiliation? How? Did Madrid not even attack never mind score? Did City hit the woodwork eight times?
Real scored first, then gave an excellent lesson on defending, as a team. There’s more than one way to get through a knockout tournament.
If Pep was a genius, he’d know not to play Grealish or at least sub him sooner. His inch by inch movement, just waiting for a leg to dive over, ruins City’s momentum.
Ferguson is still the greatest manager of all time, Wooden coming in at a close second.
City has played Madrid in the last 3 seasons and it was always fine margins except for last season
After 90mins
2022 4-3 in Etihad 21 in Bernabeu
2023 1-1 in Bernabeu 4-0 in Etihad
2024 3-3 in Bernabeu 1-1 in Etihad
Fine margins between both coaches
After 90mins
2022 4-3 in Etihad 21 in Bernabeu
2023 1-1 in Bernabeu 4-0 in Etihad
2024 3-3 in Bernabeu 1-1 in Etihad
Fine margins between both coaches
Grealish wasn’t really the issue I thought, the issue was playing 4 centre backs and then still progressing the ball so Akanji and Gvardiol ended up in attacking half spaces and didn’t know what to do. They are trying to do what Stones did last season but they are nowhere near as good at it. Then also when you also take away Gundogan from that, they’re significantly less potent than they were last season. Gundogan was an important player for them.
Good one.
What's that supposed to mean?
Did you watch Liverpool - City game couple of weeks ago? Liverpool dominated City but was too wasteful. You're talking like City is that abstract monster that nobody can dominate against which is not true.
I was in the Real Madrid forum with almost every member in the "God have mercy on us" mode with that display until the end constantly cursing Ancelotti. After the win, they declared Ancelotti the greatest tactical master..
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Did you watch the same game? Below are from the match thread here. Real didn't give anyone any lesson, they showed how clueless they are against a high quality possession team like City. Just because they got the result they wanted does not make them tactical masters, had KDB scored that tap-in, Real fans would probably ask for Ancelotti's resignation with that terrible display despite having a great squad. They were a meme yesterday, couldn't even string together a couple of passes. This is not even comparable to Mourinho's "parking the bus" style.
"City battered Madrid in everything but the scoreline. There's actually nothing you can do if they play as well as they are capable."
"Madrid easily second best in everything but the scoreline. Thankfully going to ET."
"Ancelotti is like a bad driver in a fast car or a bad jockey riding a fast horse. Real need to start playing football."
"Madrid showing just what a well polished machine city are. Bellingham then just watching on as city pass round him was interesting."
"Have Real kept the ball at all this second half?"
"Real Madrid, smalltime football."
"Real have nothing going forward. One way traffic."
"There's just nobody close to City on the planet right now. A second treble for them just feels inevitable, and I wouldn't put it past them to make it three next year."
"This is Real Madrid, in case you're wondering"
"Not sure what’s worse. Madrids performance or listening to McManaman."
"Do City have 13 players on the pitch or something? Real have no space whenever they leave their third with the ball."
"Still confident and hopeful of Real pulling a United-style undeserved steal after an entire match of one-way traffic against them."
"City should have won 5-1 tonight."
"33 shots City have had so far, how can a team 8 points clear at the top of La Liga give their opposition 33 shots?"
"City fecking battered them as well which makes this even better"
With that logic, one can conclude SAF has nothing over Guardiola as they met twice in the UCL final, and Pep's team dominated the team SAF coached meaning Guardiola >>> SAF.
Again, using your logic, SAF should have full responsibility for any loss and no one else "because he coached them (United)".
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This "he has to manage a shit club to be considered the best" talk is so stupid. I mean, the guy started at Barcelona and was an immediately phenomenon; what the hell did you expect? That he would go to Espanyol? Obviously he'll get only top clubs during his prime.
There were tons of trainers that obtained sucess in small clubs and then flopped in a bigger one, then people called them out on "not being ready for this level". The guy started in a giant, which wasn't exactly in a great moment(finished 20 points behind a not that strong Real Madrid), under a ferocious pressure, and was capable of not only winning every title possible but also in a very dominant fashion(yeah, except that clash with Chelsea), forming perhaps the best team in the sport history. I don't think doing that is less impressive than winning a fluke UCL with Porto(Mônaco reached the final in the same year; PSV was kicked out in the semi in 2005 because of the away goal rule; TEN HAG didn't win with Ajax by a bit(I could cite more examples, but the last one was probably enough)) or a random continental tournament(the list of clubs is not impressive, I have to say) with Aberdeen.
There were tons of trainers that obtained sucess in small clubs and then flopped in a bigger one, then people called them out on "not being ready for this level". The guy started in a giant, which wasn't exactly in a great moment(finished 20 points behind a not that strong Real Madrid), under a ferocious pressure, and was capable of not only winning every title possible but also in a very dominant fashion(yeah, except that clash with Chelsea), forming perhaps the best team in the sport history. I don't think doing that is less impressive than winning a fluke UCL with Porto(Mônaco reached the final in the same year; PSV was kicked out in the semi in 2005 because of the away goal rule; TEN HAG didn't win with Ajax by a bit(I could cite more examples, but the last one was probably enough)) or a random continental tournament(the list of clubs is not impressive, I have to say) with Aberdeen.
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He probably would be best ever if he took, idk, AC Milan to CL win instead City.
Everyone knows what City is.
Everyone knows what City is.
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Honestly, by the time he retires probably.
The city charges won't change anything.
Hes changed football, for me SAF is the best British and most important in PL football he helped make the prem what it is today, but globally Pep has just raised standards to insane levels.
The city charges won't change anything.
Hes changed football, for me SAF is the best British and most important in PL football he helped make the prem what it is today, but globally Pep has just raised standards to insane levels.
I did see that yeah, they were played off the park and if I remember rightly I think Villa played pretty well against them as well.
That's two games out of probably hundreds where City have totally dominated possession. It was the same with Guardiolas Barcelona team as well.
I wasn't saying that absolutely nobody can be dominant in a game against them, but it's incredibly rare that actually happens due to how they play and the quality of players they have doing it.
It's just really difficult to get the ball moving freely against City. If a team is pinned back and finding it hard to get out they have no choice but to defend. That's not a definite choice to park the bus, it's just doing what you're forced to to get through the game.
United look like they park the bus every fecking week. I'm fairly sure they're not choosing to do that against most of the teams in the league.
It wasn't a tactical masterclass, they just exploited the same weakness that is present every game against City to get their goals, they have better players so they exploit the space and take chances more often. They got battered in terms of possession, nearly every team does against a Guardiola team, big deal, they still got through to the semi final, that's what matters.
The way he plays, the relentless, unwavering high press demands full fitness. And it is inevitable that some of the players will tire before the 90 minutes are up... Had he started Doku and given him at least 60 minutes to play alongside fully fit De Bruyne and Haaland, they would have scored more...
Despite all their domination, the clear-cut chances only came after Doku was introduced.
Despite all their domination, the clear-cut chances only came after Doku was introduced.
I agree with @reddevilz007 on Pep being a revolutionary tactician. Probably the biggest pioneer in this aspect since Cruyff.
Whether that makes him the greatest of all time is subjective. However, most of today's coaches are following his principles one way or another: Arteta, Klopp, Ange, ten Hag, Tuchel, Nagelsmann, Flick, Xavi, Alonso etc. all of these guys and this is just off the top of my head.
However, there should be a huge asterisk next to the trophies he won at both Barca and City, which should very much stain his legacy, but I fear most people won't care or even be aware of it.
Whether that makes him the greatest of all time is subjective. However, most of today's coaches are following his principles one way or another: Arteta, Klopp, Ange, ten Hag, Tuchel, Nagelsmann, Flick, Xavi, Alonso etc. all of these guys and this is just off the top of my head.
However, there should be a huge asterisk next to the trophies he won at both Barca and City, which should very much stain his legacy, but I fear most people won't care or even be aware of it.
Most of the managers you listed deviate so much from the complete set of Pep's principles that those they follow are more coincidence then everything else. Claiming that they all follow Pep is laughable. It's probably true for Arteta and Xavi to a high degree, but the others play more or less different. Prime example for this would be Flick's hyper-aggressive pressing monster obliterating Barca 8-2 during their sextuple run.
Fergie > Ancelotti > Zidane > Pep > Klopp
It is revisionist history when one sees "Pep dominated SAF twice." In reality, the 2011 Final was one-sided but the 2009 Final was down to Barca converting their chances and United did not. Stats reflect such as does the actual game watch. 2009 was no domination by any means, it was a fantastic chess match in which Barca scored two goals off individual brilliance - Iniesta attacking the space and pass to Eto'o, Xavi collecting weak clearance and cross to unmarked Messi - and United fluffed multiple good chances - namely Park blocked shot in the opening minutes and Berbatov's unmarked header late on.
51-49 possession to Barca
12-11 shots to United
8-2 shots on target to Barca - vaguely recall there were a couple blocks by Barca
7-4 corners to United
51-49 possession to Barca
12-11 shots to United
8-2 shots on target to Barca - vaguely recall there were a couple blocks by Barca
7-4 corners to United
I agree that it is a fallacious argument, as is any argument judging someone's greatness by trying to point out what the person hasn't done as opposed to focusing on what they have done.
Talking about managers who did well at the bottom as a way to try and disparage Pep is silly, because everyone's situation is different. Even though we all know there is no correlation between greatness as a player and greatness as a manager, top players still routinely get management opportunities that crap or non-players do not get at the start of their managerial careers. We've seen so many players who are legends at big clubs get given the managerial role without much of a resume: Pirlo, Lampard, Zidane, etc. Even Ryan Giggs for a bit, lolz.
If you're a bits and pieces professional player, no one is going to make you the manager of Real Madrid or Juventus (or Manchester United) at the outset of your managerial career. Typically you will have to start somewhere small and punch above your weight and then you get bigger opportunities.
If you're a guy who played for Barcelona for 10 years and won 6 league titles and the European Cup, then you might be given the managerial job without having to go through that gauntlet. Not just because you were a top player but also because you have a connection with the club. But then it it is up to you to prove that you can swim once you are thrown in the deep end. And it is deep, managing a club of that size with no experience.
By the way, this is not to denigrate guys like Fergie who had amazing achievements with smaller clubs, I understand how difficult that is. But to say stuff like Pep is not proven or whatever because he hasn't done something similar is illogical. He never had the opportunity to and plus, none of us really have any idea how he would fare with a small club anyway, it's just speculation.
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Did you count the numerous shots from distance by Ronaldo that went into orbit?
Statistically in the league City are around the bottom for distance travelled, possession football means you move less than your opponents.
And yet it came down to Barca converting two chances and United fluffing multiple, including Ronaldo who did take that early free kick that Valdes pushed to Park who then had his shot blocked by Pique. Ronaldo also had two early shots just wide of the goal, not moon shots (yawn), and had a second half attempt stopped by Valdes.
In 2011, it was 19-4 shots and 12-1 shots on target to Barca who also had a 63-37 possession advantage. These two finals were apples to oranges in context, only the same result of who won. The 2011 United team were far weaker compared to their 2009 side and the 2011 Barca team were at their peak.
Not necessarily… Against Madrid (which is the game i was talking about) they certainly covered more ground (stats say 7km more), and more importantly they did it with a much higher intensity.
fecking hell. Give your head a wobble. Klopp is fantastic and I wish we’d got him. We’d love him him and would have won more.
But him above Ferguson is insanity. Ferguson at Aberdeen to his first Double at United leaves him better than Klopps career. Wenger is better than Klopp. Jose is. Conte is.
His team plays jeopardy laden football that I often enjoy. But he’s not one of the best coaches of all time. He’s a level below that.
Oh I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm reliving screaming at the screen at Ronaldo as he thought he could pull off another Porto/Arsenal wondergoal