Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?

Nah, just look at his history with medical staff, doping allegations and missed tests for his teams. Then add in the referees being paid by Barca and the English referees getting nixers in the dessert.

Huge * beside every trophy.
 
Fobal said:
1. There is not such a silly thing like ONE GOAT
2. If a huge club like Barca, Real or whomever have a a player in their ranks with the talent of Messi that actually later delivers in the greatest stage, there is very little chances that player will leave such club, even as clueless as Barca can be.
3. If you think that receiving the number 10 shirt of Barca historically (worse right after RG's period) ain't heavy, you clearly ain't following how self destructing and difficult is to carry that shirt.
4. The EPL (and prior periods) over the top praise is one of the silliest things ever, no matter how great it is and was, it might have the most deluded fans ever.
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Then the same for Pep Guardiola.

No one has seen a team play football the way he has managed a team before. I doubt we will see it in the future either. The same way that no one has seen anyone play Football to the level Messi has played.

It doesn't matter what team they chose to manage or play in - they both had the worlds best talent to play or manage the way they did.

Simple as.

People cant say the worlds best manager should manage a weaker team for a harder career to prove himself because then i could have said it for Messi aswell - like asking him to play for Stoke on a rainy day.

No. If one is the greatest player of all time then the other is the best manager of all time and vice versa.
 
Absolutely not. He’s a great manager, but at each club there has been cheating. It’s also three easy-peasy jobs, the best teams in Spain, Germany, and England respectively. He isn’t fit to lace Sir Alex’s boots.
 
QuietOn Fortune said:
Then the same for Pep Guardiola.

No one has seen a team play football the way he has managed a team before. I doubt we will see it in the future either. The same way that no one has seen anyone play Football to the level Messi has played.

It doesn't matter what team they chose to manage or play in - they both had the worlds besr talent to play or manage the way they did.

Simple as.
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I wasn't attacking Pep, I was just pointing that there is no need even if your post was in an ironic/satire way (less when many actually think what you've wrote as non ironic) to made that sort of "fake analogy". Just that.
 
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If Fergie had retired in 1985 there would genuinely be an argument as it becomes more apparent how crazy the job was he did at Aberdeen. Still the last non old firm Champion 40 years on and not only that, but he had them dominating and even tasting European success beating Real Madrid.

His job from building United up again from very little in 1986 to the success and status of the club in 1999 has him down as the best ever. Lots were saying it at the time. Then when you also consider the way he broke up that team and brought us into a modern era against the oil money with the 06-09 team and had all that success all over again…there is no debate.

Then when you consider the way the continued success post 2009 was solely down to him getting the best out of average players (genuinely in 2011 for example any of the top 4 would have won the league if he was their manager) having his hands completely tied by those above…it annoys me that this thread exists.
 
Lexicon Red Devil said:
Ferguson also won a European trophy by beating Real when he was managing Aberdeen. Nothing Pep has done comes close to that.

United's CL run in 99 also pitted them against the likes of Rivaldo, Zidane, Ronaldo and Matthaus who were all probably better than United's best players.

The fact that the likes of Mourinho, Klopp and Ferguson have won trophies without having the best players or most expensive squads is, and always will be, a good stick to beat Pep with, because the truth is he has been backed better than any manager in the history of the game and simply hasn't backed it up with enough European trophies. 1 CL with the backing he's had at City is an underachievement whichever way you look at it.

Real had to bring on a City reject, a 38 year old and a centre back on at right back tonight, while Pep was able to bring on a £60m winger on for his £100m winger, a £57m defender as well as another £60m worth of talent and could afford to leave another £100m on the bench. Madrid had 3 key players missing while City had none.

The disparity between the top two teams in the world has surely never been so vast, yet once again Pep doesn't make the most of it. He simply hasn't achieved anything at City that any top manager wouldn't have with the same resources.
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He destroyed Ferguson in multiple CL finals and created the greatest team the world has ever sseen. Those victories were nothing to do with resources. Not particularly bothered about what he would do with Doncaster Rovers or whatever. He started at the top because he was a club legend as a player. But he stayed there because he won and won big right from the start. If you think managing Barcelona as your first job is easy, then I don't know what to tell you.

City could win 4 PL titles in a row, which is something no one has ever done in England. No other City manager could even win 2 in a row, and they all had resources.
 
I find it funny how Ancelotti could win a FIFTH champions league at the end of this season (if anything, I think he’s the slight favourite) and he’s still not even relevant in the conversation.
 
I can't consider anyone the greatest manager of all time if they've never had to face any sort of adversity. As long as Pep hasn't managed (and succeeded with) a smaller club that has to overcome the odds, it's factually impossible to call him the greatest when other managers have done that and also won as much or more than him.
 
Dansk said:
I can't consider anyone the greatest manager of all time if they've never had to face any sort of adversity. As long as Pep hasn't managed (and succeeded with) a smaller club that has to overcome the odds, it's factually impossible to call him the greatest when other managers have done that and also won as much or more than him.
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Messi is not goat because he never did it on a rainy day at Stoke
 
Dansk said:
I can't consider anyone the greatest manager of all time if they've never had to face any sort of adversity. As long as Pep hasn't managed (and succeeded with) a smaller club that has to overcome the odds, it's factually impossible to call him the greatest when other managers have done that and also won as much or more than him.
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When he took the Barcelona job (without coaching a first division club before) after they haven't won anything for 2 years, you predicted that he was going to win every single trophy his first season with a distinctive style of play? Wasn't that considered adversity? Or are you going to use the hindsight argument that he had generational talents (who were already there during the 2 seasons in which they won nothing) that were going to win it all anyways no matter who was coaching them?

By the way, the only manager who's won more was Ferguson.
Also, winning as underdog doesn't mean one can also do it as favorite (see Mourinho with his Chelsea and Madrid gigs). Or do you also consider Di Matteo and Ranieri to be top coaches too?
There's a reason why most top players (past and present, even those who haven't played for him like Bruno Fernandes) as well as coaches consider Pep to be the best, unlike armchair experts who think they know better.

There's no denying that he has heavily influenced the way the game is being played since 2008/2009. That's why every top team wants him, not just because he wins. They want their teams playing that type of expansive football.
 
Infordin said:
I find it funny how Ancelotti could win a FIFTH champions league at the end of this season (if anything, I think he’s the slight favourite) and he’s still not even relevant in the conversation.
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Exactly, it’s all abit strange with this Pep and Klopp hype train when you see someone like Ancelotti winning titles after titles on the biggest of stages and in various leagues.
 
Dansk said:
I can't consider anyone the greatest manager of all time if they've never had to face any sort of adversity. As long as Pep hasn't managed (and succeeded with) a smaller club that has to overcome the odds, it's factually impossible to call him the greatest when other managers have done that and also won as much or more than him.
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Rainieri is the GOAT coach. No one has ever taken a team like Leicester to win the league
 
Freak said:
Exactly, it’s all abit strange with this Pep and Klopp hype train when you see someone like Ancelotti winning titles after titles on the biggest of stages and in various leagues.
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It’s almost like the bias English media focus on the ‘best league in the world’ whilst yet again having no English sides in the semi final of the Champions League.
 
Freak said:
Exactly, it’s all abit strange with this Pep and Klopp hype train when you see someone like Ancelotti winning titles after titles on the biggest of stages and in various leagues.
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Almost as if style of play and general influence on how the game is been played matters just as much, right?
 
Dansk said:
I can't consider anyone the greatest manager of all time if they've never had to face any sort of adversity. As long as Pep hasn't managed (and succeeded with) a smaller club that has to overcome the odds, it's factually impossible to call him the greatest when other managers have done that and also won as much or more than him.
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Funny how Pep fanboys never talk about bayern either. Not sure he's even top 5 in their history of managers. And Jose's wins with Porto and Inter were far more impressive than his with barca and city.
 
heraklion said:
The disparity between two teams today on the pitch performance wise was so big that nobody would be surprised if City won 4-0 just like last year. Did you watch the game today? Real was totally humiliated, never seen them that clueless on the pitch in years.
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Madrid players looked so humiliated celebrating on the pitch while City players were going back to the locker room with their tails between their legs. Humiliations are on the scoresheet and nowhere else.

City had complete control of the game, but all that ball possession is worthless at the end of the day if you can't close the show. The objective of the game is to win. You'll be criticised if you don't, regardless of how you played.
 
Infordin said:
I find it funny how Ancelotti could win a FIFTH champions league at the end of this season (if anything, I think he’s the slight favourite) and he’s still not even relevant in the conversation.
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Pep revolutionized how the game is being played.
Ancelotti and SAF know how to get the best out of their team, despite not playing the best football.
Ancelotti has won a few scrappy ones, but its the result that counts, and he delivered.
 
Dansk said:
I can't consider anyone the greatest manager of all time if they've never had to face any sort of adversity. As long as Pep hasn't managed (and succeeded with) a smaller club that has to overcome the odds, it's factually impossible to call him the greatest when other managers have done that and also won as much or more than him.
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Is it okay that i don't see Messi as my best player of all time because he didnt face any adversity?

He never moved to another league until his age became an excuse used when he was disappointing at PSG even though he went on to collect 2 or more Balon Dor's afterwards

Players that have moved clubs in the same league & to new leagues have had different sorts of performance levels both positive & negative ways :

1. Neymar - next Pele at Barcelona & won everything but flopped at PSG
2. Greizmann - Same league but flopped at Barcelona
3. Torres to Chelsea
4. Shevchenko best 9 in the world at AC milan to flop at Chelsea
5. Gotze Dortmund to Bayern
6. Alexis Sanchez Arsenal to United
7. Pogba juventus best attacking midfielder potential to United potential
8 Forlan at United vs Forlan in La Liga
9. Falcao La Liga Vs PL
10. Hazard at PL vs Hazard in La Liga
11. Zlatan in every league vs Barcelona (did well but couldn't overtake the attack)
12. Another GOAT not settling in well at Barcelona like Maradona arguably most similar player to Messi.
13. Dembele at Barcelona vs PSG
14. Countinho from Liverpool best player to Barcelona
15. Veron at United
16. Kaka AC Milan vs Real Madrid
17. Di Maria from Real Madrid to Manchester United
18. Bonnuci from AC milan to Juventus
19. Galacticos potential vs what was achieved like Fat Ronaldo at Real Madrid or even Beckham
20. Lukaku Chelsea 1st season vs 2nd season coming back from Inter
21. Antony & Jadon Sancho - Eridivisie and Bundesliga to PL
22. Anelka Arsenal to RMadrid
23. James Rodriguez Ligue 1 to La Liga
24. Morata PL vs La Liga
25. Felix PL vs La Liga vs Benfica versions
26. Havertz at Chelsea vs Arsenal
27. Henry improving at Arsenal from Juventus, also succeeded at Barceloma but i found his performances a bit drop of quality compared to how he played at Arsenal

I could go on and on.

This is why Messi will never be my personal GOAT even if he is the official GOAT in a poll.

Ive seen too many players flop in different leagues never mind different teams in the same lesgue to just give Messi the free key to success for something he did not achieve.

Just like Neymar messi could have gone from the next pele & maradona to an absolutely dissapointment in their potential.

He played in such a well built total football system built at Barcelona from cryuff's time and upgraded at Barcelona by Pep, came through la masia & then dominated one of the weakest top leagues of all time compared to the 90s serie A & the PL post Abrahmovic - im sure he would have never have been a 94 goal forward in any other league.

100%.

He might not even had below average performances but may have just struggled to settle in another country with a different atmosphere like Di Maria did - who came from the same league & same country aswell just for proof.

Messi is very very lucky that he went to PSG when he was older because his performances were given the - he is past his prime - excuse even though he went on to win the Balon Dor twice more :lol:

He didnt do as well at PSG as he did at Barcelona so I'm sure he wouldnt have in the PL. Doesn't mean he would completely flop - but i doubt he would be regarded as the GOAT after a career away from Barcelona and even Guardiola.

Messi is the official GOAT but he will never be mine. Ive seen too much proof in the pudding that players can change at different clubs for him to be my GOAT.

Pep is the GOAT if Messi is the GOAT.

Both careers lacked adversity.
 
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reddevilz007 said:
Pep revolutionized how the game is being played.
Ancelotti and SAF know how to get the best out of their team, despite not playing the best football.
Ancelotti has won a few scrappy ones, but its the result that counts, and he delivered.
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Pep did not revolutionize how the game is played. I think you're just having a wum. Almost got me. Did make me laugh though.
 
Infordin said:
I find it funny how Ancelotti could win a FIFTH champions league at the end of this season (if anything, I think he’s the slight favourite) and he’s still not even relevant in the conversation.
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He’s absolutely in contention as one of, if not the greatest manager in the European Cup/CL, but his league record is pretty poor frankly, only 1 Serie A title with that Milan team, lost Ligue 1 to bloody Montpellier, 1 title in England by the skin of his teeth to a Ronaldo-less Utd, before imploding the next season (having Torres forced on him didn’t help, granted), 1 title in Germany (and got promptly sacked because both team and board disliked his football/training method), and 1 title thus far in Spain (will be 2 soon), lost one already to Spanish Lego Pep. If you get repeatedly pipped in the one competition making up the bulk of the regular season then it’s hard to claim the title of greatest ever manager.
 
Just goes to show how difficult is to win CL.

He's had how many times the best team in the competition by a fecking mile? I bet it's more than 7-8 times easily, and he's won it just three times.
 
Amar__ said:
Just goes to show how difficult is to win CL.

He's had how many times the best team in the competition by a fecking mile? I bet it's more than 7-8 times easily, and he's won it just three times.
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SAF had the same predicament though and I think it comes down to both prioritising the domestic league.

We've not seen any the likes of SAF and Pep abandon the league and prioritise the UCL so you end up with a team finishing 5th domestically claiming to be eUrOpEaN cHaMpIoNs like Chelsea and Liverpool.

It just becomes an exotic FA Cup at that point.
 
Lots of City fans coming out of the woodwork here it seems.

Revolutioned the game.

Come of it. Ancelotti is on the way to his 5th CL ffs.
 
He's successfully figured out and implemented the best doping program in football history and that's why he's the best manager in the world
 
Nope, even without all the cheating he would not be the greatest, much less now.

He is clearly a great manager, but with all the blatant cheating going at the clubs he managed, that is always going to taint his achievements.
 
The conversations that go on about Pep (solely) on football forums are akin to flat earth discussions that also (solely) happen on the internet

Is there anyone (with actual football credentials) who watched that match yesterday thinking, "yeah this is the problem with Pep?"
 
Doping, blood bags being destroyed, paying refs, 115 charges.

Too much dirt to be considered the best.
 
mu4c_20le said:
Funny how Pep fanboys never talk about bayern either. Not sure he's even top 5 in their history of managers. And Jose's wins with Porto and Inter were far more impressive than his with barca and city.
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He surely is Bayern's most consistent manager ever. Four dominant titles in a row is unprecedented. But on the other hand he truly failed to deliver the CL after taking over one of the best ever teams.
 
I don't know if he is the greatest ever or not, nor do I want to get into that debate; however, besides Klopp I have hardly seen a manager go toe to toe with Pep and come out on top. They all have to accept that he is tactically superior and have resorted to underdog football (become Jose reincarnates). Which is quite a commendable achievement in it's own right, imo.
 
Insanity said:
I don't know if he is the greatest ever or not, nor do I want to get into that debate; however, besides Klopp I have hardly seen a manager go toe to toe with Pep and come out on top. They all have to accept that he is tactically superior and have resorted to underdog football (become Jose reincarnates). Which is quite a commendable achievement in it's own right, imo.
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That is one of the feathers in Klopp's cap; his ability to take the game to this City and leave them discombobulated at times.

Re: the bolded, only off the internet
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
He’s absolutely in contention as one of, if not the greatest manager in the European Cup/CL, but his league record is pretty poor frankly, only 1 Serie A title with that Milan team, lost Ligue 1 to bloody Montpellier, 1 title in England by the skin of his teeth to a Ronaldo-less Utd, before imploding the next season (having Torres forced on him didn’t help, granted), 1 title in Germany (and got promptly sacked because both team and board disliked his football/training method), and 1 title thus far in Spain (will be 2 soon), lost one already to Spanish Lego Pep. If you get repeatedly pipped in the one competition making up the bulk of the regular season then it’s hard to claim the title of greatest ever manager.
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I get your point about his league record, but being the only manager ever to have won the title in each top 5 leagues is still a great achievement.

He's out of his depth tactically in today's football though.
 
adexkola said:
That is one of the feathers in Klopp's cap; his ability to take the game to this City and leave them discombobulated at times.

Re: the bolded, only off the internet
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That is why Klopp is our greatest miss since Sir Alex's retirement. Him powered with our resources going toe to toe with Pep for the biggest titles would have been a sight to behold. Too bad he is a glutton for punishment and likes to take jobs at clubs who are not at the top.
 
Too early still but I think he will end up taking an international job and winning a major tournament and it will be hard to argue against him being one of the top guys (i.e top 3 of all time).
 
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SilentWitness said:
Too early still but I think he will end up taking an international job and winning a major tournament and it will be hard to argue against him being one of the top guys.
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He is one of the top guys but he isn't at the top spot. And it's not a criticism of Guardiola, it just happens that other managers have also been exceptional for long period of times. Though Guardiola will always have the cheating allegations surrounding his success.
 
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