Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?

Iker Quesadillas said:
Building a dynasty from the ground up just isn't that important ouside of England.
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It's not important in Spain(at least to Real fans) because it's effectively a closed shop where two clubs are guaranteed a bigger slice of the pie in terms of TV revenue which makes it hard to compete. Barca and Real have no real competition other than each other these days, so they can always focus more of their efforts on Europe.

It was far more impressive seeing the likes of Valencia, Deportivo and Athletico competing against the best in Europe because they did so without just breaking transfer record after transfer record on the very best players in the world. Those teams also had real identities and characters even if they fell short in winning the CL in the end. I'm sure plenty of fans around Europe remember those teams fondly.

There's nothing really remarkable about Real's success at all when you think about how easy things have been made for them financially and the money they've spent to achieve it. At least Barca have their academy, even if I'm not the biggest fan of their holier-than-thou attitude.
 
Care_de_Bobo said:
There's nothing really remarkable about Real's success at all when you think about how easy things have been made for them financially and the money they've spent to achieve it. At least Barca have their academy, even if I'm not the biggest fan of their holier-than-thou attitude.
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Real is the greatest club of all time easily and this is coming from a non-Real fan. The team has more CL titles than all PL teams combined, I have no idea what your criteria for remarkable success is but the football world will laugh at the statement that "There's nothing really remarkable about Real's success at all".

If things could be that easily solved with money, United should have recovered by now post-SAF. That club always finds a way to successfully rebuild regardless of who the manager is or star players are, and that's very impressive..
 
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Eddy_JukeZ said:
Speak for yourself.

I think it's revered universally and shows something special.

The person who started the empire is always more revered than the person who continued it.
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It's not as valued outside of England because the football culture is different. Managerial stints are briefer, which means you will rarely ever see a manager "build from the ground up" in the way people are wanting here.

France Football did a ranking of managers not too long ago and their top manager was Rinus Michels. Second was Ferguson, third Sacchi, fourth Cruyff, fifth Guardiola.

Michels was "only" at Ajax for six years, Sacchi at AC Milan for four years (plus an additional one later), Guardiola at Barcelona for four years, even Cruyff was "only" at Barcelona for eight years.
 
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Care_de_Bobo said:
It was far more impressive seeing the likes of Valencia, Deportivo and Athletico competing against the best in Europe because they did so without just breaking transfer record after transfer record on the very best players in the world.
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Nobody's going to be putting Hector Cuper or Javi Irureta in a list of top 50 managers ever.
 
There are probably three types of success that are usually revered in a manager and that will get them spoken about as all time greats. Number of trophies, influence on how the game is being played and a pure romantic story of doing something special against the odds. The first two command the most respect from the footballing fraternity when you consider how highly viewed people like Sacchi, Michels and Cruyff. The third category is bigger in the UK than the rest of Europe because of how the clubs are setup but also because the culture of the country loves the whole fight against the odds thing and bleed for the cause. The likes of Clough are perfect examples of that. Our Sir Alex ticks two boxes, the first and third whereas Pep has the distinction of being the only influencer who also has big numbers. British football culture has always been different, some would say insolent to the rest of the world which I think is the reason many of us love it. By its parameteres, Sir Alex is the ultimate manager, for the rest of Europe, Pep would probably be viewed as ticking more boxes. Globaly speaking they're both easily in the top 5 of their field.
 
Yeah he might be, I don't know, probably top 3.

To be fair I'm absolutely tired of defending this club's legacy among other football fans if the club itself doesn't care.

We should be the ones limiting Pep's success but the owners don't care, the staff don't care, many of our ex players don't care, so I why should I care.
 
heraklion said:
Real is the greatest club of all time easily
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What are you smoking bro! Real is the god father of the PSG/City/Chelsea/Newcastle model, the 1st true state run club. If this club was anywhere other than in Spain, an European country (like say an Arabic or Asian country) our media narratives would have been distinctly different and in all likelihood ganged on Real. Absolutely despicable club that literally destroyed the ethos of sporting fairness in the football world and continues to do so with impunity even today. Unequal revenue sharing which literally restrains La Liga is spear headed by Real. From Player Tapping to underhanded deals bailed out by the Spanish Franco government, you couldn't have picked a much worse example for a club to call the greatest.

Care_de_Bobo said:
There's nothing really remarkable about Real's success
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100% agree with this.

Also between Pep and Sir Alex, I think the discussion is over. I am united to my bones, but Pep is the better football manager without any arguments. If you give them both infinite money to spend, Pep's team will beat Sir Alex's team 9 out of 10. You can strip their managerial qualities and compare them one by one and I am sure there wont be any difference at all. But when it comes to both their teams purely in football tactics and style of play terms, Pep is the GOAT.

I genuinely think our 08/09 team is the greatest team in the club history. And despite the general narrative hailing the Pep's Barca team as some kinda GOAT team, people forget that Chelsea nearly made it through and was by far the better team in the semi against them. Man to man the difference between our side and Pep's Barca was hardly anything. But we got completely outplayed in the finals and that's down to the quality of the two managers nothing else.
 
No idea how you judge the GOAT but you have to admit he has done a good job everywhere he has been. Admittedly he has usually had the best players and/or funds to buy what he needs, but he has still done very well and lots of others have made an arse of things in similar circumstances (great players and/or lots of $ to buy them).
 
iamking said:
Also between Pep and Sir Alex, I think the discussion is over. I am united to my bones, but Pep is the better football manager without any arguments. If you give them both infinite money to spend, Pep's team will beat Sir Alex's team 9 out of 10. You can strip their managerial qualities and compare them one by one and I am sure there wont be any difference at all. But when it comes to both their teams purely in football tactics and style of play terms, Pep is the GOAT.

I genuinely think our 08/09 team is the greatest team in the club history. And despite the general narrative hailing the Pep's Barca team as some kinda GOAT team, people forget that Chelsea nearly made it through and was by far the better team in the semi against them. Man to man the difference between our side and Pep's Barca was hardly anything. But we got completely outplayed in the finals and that's down to the quality of the two managers nothing else.
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Get the f...out of here with that talk.

Outside of his Barca teams, which had Messi, he under delivered at Bayern and only just pipped Liverpool to two separate titles by a single point against a manager who was working with a much lesser transfer budget and resources.

Guardiola is an incredible manager but he's able to consolidate his position with City at the top because he has an unfair financial advantage over every other club. The fact other clubs including ourselves have had such shit shows during his time here further compounds this. If money was no object, Guardiola would be finding that he would be on a level playing field with managers like Klopp, who would destroy him in head-to-head records up until a few years ago. As much as I hate to say it but if Fergie was still managing to this very day, Klopp would give you a glimpse of the style of football that could equally as competitive and dominant.
 
criticalanalysis said:
Get the f...out of here with that talk.

Outside of his Barca teams, which had Messi, he under delivered at Bayern and only just pipped Liverpool to two separate titles by a single point against a manager who was working with a much lesser transfer budget and resources.

Guardiola is an incredible manager but he's able to consolidate his position with City at the top because he has an unfair financial advantage over every other club. The fact other clubs including ourselves have had such shit shows during his time here further compounds this. If money was no object, Guardiola would be finding that he would be on a level playing field with managers like Klopp, who would destroy him in head-to-head records up until a few years ago. As much as I hate to say it but if Fergie was still managing to this very day, Klopp would give you a glimpse of the style of football that could equally as competitive and dominant.
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Klopp literally says Pep is better than him every single time. Klopp's style could be anti-thesis to Pep's doesnt mean he is a better manager than him. Its how dominant the style is against most managers and Pep has had the most dominant football philosophy from the moment he took office at Barca. Explain why He under delivered at Bayern?
 
heraklion said:
Real is the greatest club of all time easily and this is coming from a non-Real fan. The team has more CL titles than all PL teams combined, I have no idea what your criteria for remarkable success is but the football world will laugh at the statement that "There's nothing really remarkable about Real's success at all".

If things could be that easily solved with money, United should have recovered by now post-SAF. That club always finds a way to successfully rebuild regardless of who the manager is or star players are, and that's very impressive..
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I see there is some truth in the poster's statement about funds... If Liverpool and United had been able to cut their own media rights for years in the same aspects as Barca and Real did (until recently I believe), while the rest of the league tried to split a much smaller share of the pie between themselves, and assuming there are no state-backed ownership in England, there's little doubt United would have recovered post-SAF. There would only have been Liverpool to compete with annually with perhaps a club or two rising up to challenge for a couple years or so, ala Atletico. And it would probably be a Klopp vs Pep at either club, depending on which got who first.
 
iamking said:
What are you smoking bro! Real is the god father of the PSG/City/Chelsea/Newcastle model, the 1st true state run club. If this club was anywhere other than in Spain, an European country (like say an Arabic or Asian country) our media narratives would have been distinctly different and in all likelihood ganged on Real. Absolutely despicable club that literally destroyed the ethos of sporting fairness in the football world and continues to do so with impunity even today. Unequal revenue sharing which literally restrains La Liga is spear headed by Real. From Player Tapping to underhanded deals bailed out by the Spanish Franco government, you couldn't have picked a much worse example for a club to call the greatest.
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imagine disputing the undisputed greatest club of all time "by far", and I am not even a Real fan.. If you are thinking that Real is not the first team that comes to the mind of most football fans when thinking about the greatest club ever, you are probably living on a different planet.. All the financing stuff etc. nobody cares, at least their teams are owned by socios not a bunch of mostly clueless foreign owners.. Just two years ago, they destroyed all overhyped PL teams Chelsea, Liverpool, City one by one despite being in decline, having an aging squad & relatively limited finances winning the CL.

Hard to accept as I prefer Barca in Spain, but winner's mentality is in their DNA, it's timeless, you always see that in the finals.. 17 CL finals in almost 70 years - 14 wins and only 3 losses, this is crazy..
 
MrMarcello said:
I see there is some truth in the poster's statement about funds... If Liverpool and United had been able to cut their own media rights for years in the same aspects as Barca and Real did (until recently I believe), while the rest of the league tried to split a much smaller share of the pie between themselves, and assuming there are no state-backed ownership in England, there's little doubt United would have recovered post-SAF. There would only have been Liverpool to compete with annually with perhaps a club or two rising up to challenge for a couple years or so, ala Atletico. And it would probably be a Klopp vs Pep at either club, depending on which got who first.
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I agree with that. Without foreign ownership, things would obviously be much easier for United.

Pep & United would be an amazing combo, no doubt United could easily dominate the PL and the probably CL to an extent. That's what's great about Pep I think, that certainty that he would achieve great things wherever he goes. You cannot have the same level certainty with any other manager, maybe other than Klopp..
 
kaiser1 said:
Many clubs have outspent Man city without the results to show
I checked the EPL gross spend and net spend for 1yr 5yrs and 10yrs. City did not lead any of those. If we expand to Europe Barcelona nd PSG are likely to even have a higher gross and net spend
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I was talking about Fergie specifically not just any club or manager.
 
criticalanalysis said:
Outside of his Barca teams, which had Messi, he under delivered at Bayern and only just pipped Liverpool to two separate titles by a single point against a manager who was working with a much lesser transfer budget and resources.
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Then I go on another thread and see people claim that Klopp underachieved because he only won one league title....

Pep did brilliantly to construct a team that won so many games and won so many points. Klopp did brilliantly to do the same with a lesser budget.
 
No doubt he's up there, but he's only managed some of the biggest clubs in Europe (bar shitty), so no. He's never taken a lesser side and turned them completely around; and don't say shitty because they were already more or less competing before he arrived.
 
iamking said:
Explain why He under delivered at Bayern?
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Easy. He did not reach a single CL final with them. In the four seasons before Pep arrived they reached three (won only 2013, not 2010 and 2012)
 
Real Madrid are not a "state-run club." Any argument that begins with that belongs in a trash can.
 
criticalanalysis said:
only just pipped Liverpool to two separate titles by a single point
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I'm not really sure why this is supposed to be a negative. The first of these two was won with 98 points. The PL record (as well as in all major leagues, iirc) is 100 points.
 
iamking said:
What are you smoking bro! Real is the god father of the PSG/City/Chelsea/Newcastle model, the 1st true state run club. If this club was anywhere other than in Spain, an European country (like say an Arabic or Asian country) our media narratives would have been distinctly different and in all likelihood ganged on Real. Absolutely despicable club that literally destroyed the ethos of sporting fairness in the football world and continues to do so with impunity even today. Unequal revenue sharing which literally restrains La Liga is spear headed by Real. From Player Tapping to underhanded deals bailed out by the Spanish Franco government, you couldn't have picked a much worse example for a club to call the greatest.


100% agree with this.

Also between Pep and Sir Alex, I think the discussion is over. I am united to my bones, but Pep is the better football manager without any arguments. If you give them both infinite money to spend, Pep's team will beat Sir Alex's team 9 out of 10. You can strip their managerial qualities and compare them one by one and I am sure there wont be any difference at all. But when it comes to both their teams purely in football tactics and style of play terms, Pep is the GOAT.

I genuinely think our 08/09 team is the greatest team in the club history. And despite the general narrative hailing the Pep's Barca team as some kinda GOAT team, people forget that Chelsea nearly made it through and was by far the better team in the semi against them. Man to man the difference between our side and Pep's Barca was hardly anything. But we got completely outplayed in the finals and that's down to the quality of the two managers nothing else.
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There are plenty of arguments. Also, you have no idea how Fergie would do with infinite money/backing. If Fergie received financial backing after Ronaldo was sold while City were on the come-up, we likely win 7 league titles in a row(the 2 titles we didn't win were by a singular point + GD), reach another CL final at least and probably win another league cup/FA cup or two.

For the second bolded: Meh, people conflate this final with the 2011 one too often.

The 2009 final was way more even despite the media reaction.

We also fielded a player who was far too content to outshine Messi and go at it alone.
 
RoyH1 said:
Of his generation, yes without a doubt.

Of all time...I have to see him do it without a chequebook. Manage Aberdeen (you're Spanish, fine, I'll you do it with Celta de Vigo instead) to win over the colossal clubs that dominate your league utterly and win a European in the process and I'll crown you there.
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Bit of a stretch, SAF had a ton of money afterward and more often than not was lacklustre in CL. Pep had his short comings in CL too but people act like SAF didn’t have a ton of money at his disposal during his time with united.

https://www.businessinsider.com/sir-alex-fergusons-man-united-transfer-bill-2013-5?amp

850 million and that doesn’t factor in inflation. He spent a hell of a lot in his day too.

and pep ran rings around saf head to head with a lot of academy players at the time.

I do think his stint with Aberdeen was impressive
 
iamking said:
What are you smoking bro! Real is the god father of the PSG/City/Chelsea/Newcastle model, the 1st true state run club. If this club was anywhere other than in Spain, an European country (like say an Arabic or Asian country) our media narratives would have been distinctly different and in all likelihood ganged on Real. Absolutely despicable club that literally destroyed the ethos of sporting fairness in the football world and continues to do so with impunity even today. Unequal revenue sharing which literally restrains La Liga is spear headed by Real. From Player Tapping to underhanded deals bailed out by the Spanish Franco government, you couldn't have picked a much worse example for a club to call the greatest.


100% agree with this.

Also between Pep and Sir Alex, I think the discussion is over. I am united to my bones, but Pep is the better football manager without any arguments. If you give them both infinite money to spend, Pep's team will beat Sir Alex's team 9 out of 10. You can strip their managerial qualities and compare them one by one and I am sure there wont be any difference at all. But when it comes to both their teams purely in football tactics and style of play terms, Pep is the GOAT.

I genuinely think our 08/09 team is the greatest team in the club history. And despite the general narrative hailing the Pep's Barca team as some kinda GOAT team, people forget that Chelsea nearly made it through and was by far the better team in the semi against them. Man to man the difference between our side and Pep's Barca was hardly anything. But we got completely outplayed in the finals and that's down to the quality of the two managers nothing else.
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The entire post is a car crash, but especially the bolded part. A much lesser manager Ole beat Pep several times, but somehow SAF wouldn’t.
 
Is he balls. The ultimate silver spoon manager. His system is really good, but it only works when you've got fantastic players in every position. Good luck making that work at Burnley. But we'll never find out will we, because he only ever takes on jobs where everything is loaded in his favour.

His Barcelona team were amazing, but look at what he had to work with. Some of the all time GOAT players. I think most high quality managers would be winning CLs with that team. He then took over a Bayern side that were dominant, and couldn't win the CL there. Then joins city, a team funded by an entire state. Despite that ridiculous advantage it took him how many seasons to win the CL? Despite being amongst the favourites in pretty much every season.

Not a chance he's the greatest ever. He's never had to face any kind of adversity, everything is always in his favour.

And that's before we even consider the 115 charges of corruption and cheating that have underpinned his success.
 
It's quite amazing that some people agree with this months after he's won everything with club that cheated their way to glory. Also isn't his Barca period in question too based on those referees scandals?
 
Amar__ said:
It's quite amazing that some people agree with this months after he's won everything with club that cheated their way to glory. Also isn't his Barca period in question too based on those referees scandals?
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It isn't, he's considered by many to be the best manager because of his teams' style of play and the way they can impose that upon their rival.

The same applies to Messi. You can argue his achievements at Barcelona are tainted by refereeing but it will only get you so far; people have seen the way he plays.
 
miked99 said:
Is he balls. The ultimate silver spoon manager. His system is really good, but it only works when you've got fantastic players in every position. Good luck making that work at Burnley. But we'll never find out will we, because he only ever takes on jobs where everything is loaded in his favour.

His Barcelona team were amazing, but look at what he had to work with. Some of the all time GOAT players. I think most high quality managers would be winning CLs with that team. He then took over a Bayern side that were dominant, and couldn't win the CL there. Then joins city, a team funded by an entire state. Despite that ridiculous advantage it took him how many seasons to win the CL? Despite being amongst the favourites in pretty much every season.

Not a chance he's the greatest ever. He's never had to face any kind of adversity, everything is always in his favour.

And that's before we even consider the 115 charges of corruption and cheating that have underpinned his success.
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But this is not true, at City he has not had amazing players in all positions, in fact most of the time he has good players with a handful of stand out players.

Very few of his players were big names or expensive when he bought them, he's done more of making players into bigger names than anything.

Also what value is there really to making your style work with Burnley? Why waste his time there when it adds nothing to him outside of redcafe?

His football we changed the PL in such a big way, nearly all clubs have shifted in his direction.
 
Hammondo said:
But this is not true, at City he has not had amazing players in all positions, in fact most of the time he has good players with a handful of stand out players.
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A few years ago the criticism was that with City's money, he could replace crap players like John Stones. Now the criticism is that John Stones is simply too good.
 
Amar__ said:
It's quite amazing that some people agree with this months after he's won everything with club that cheated their way to glory. Also isn't his Barca period in question too based on those referees scandals?
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Not until we find out what the scandal actually was in regards to how it influenced matches. The court case is still going and doesn’t seem like they have found anything that makes it an open/shut case yet. If they do, Barca should be relegated, otherwise it’s just a whole lot to smoke for now.
 
heraklion said:
imagine disputing the undisputed greatest club of all time "by far", and I am not even a Real fan.. If you are thinking that Real is not the first team that comes to the mind of most football fans when thinking about the greatest club ever, you are probably living on a different planet.. All the financing stuff etc. nobody cares, at least their teams are owned by socios not a bunch of mostly clueless foreign owners.. Just two years ago, they destroyed all overhyped PL teams Chelsea, Liverpool, City one by one despite being in decline, having an aging squad & relatively limited finances winning the CL.

Hard to accept as I prefer Barca in Spain, but winner's mentality is in their DNA, it's timeless, you always see that in the finals.. 17 CL finals in almost 70 years - 14 wins and only 3 losses, this is crazy..
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Stop acting like you support Barca in Spain. I stand firmly by what I said, Real Madrid are the worst club in world football and their achievements are hardly worth mentioning in the same breath as other great teams across the continent. The first state run football team and if you don't know this you should read about General Franco. Nobody has 'bought' their titles more than Madrid have, the role model for all the 'I can buy my way to success" clubs like PSG, City, Chelsea etc. I remember Madrid getting tonked 4-0 at Anfield and guess what their response is, do a City/PSG/Chelsea.. Just sell the whole team and buy a new team. Its a useless Club.

Also, Champions League is not really a measure of true greatness because its a glorified cup competition at best. Lets look at its name "Champions" "League" both are false. They should rename it as Top 4 Cup or something. A Champions League would be more like the European Super League proposed (or the yesteryear Champions Only cup) and not this crap. Madrid winning the CL is the best example of that. They were nowhere near as good as the other teams and lucked out to win the cup competition (much like Liverpool 05 win). I see it more like Portsmouth/Leicester winning the FA cup. Even under Zizou, they were hardly dominating in the league but lucked their way through the Top 4 Cup competition. To somehow keep it as a measure of club greatness is a joke.

Utd under Sir Alex, Liverpool under Paisley, Barca under Pep, Milan under Sacchi/Capello, Cryuffs Ajax team, etc. are some of the greatest teams in my opinion as they were dominating their respective leagues while still doing well in Europe. This Real Madrid team is an absolute Hoax that bummed in a 2 team league and played the only cup competition that matters (just like PSG). Just buy all the players from all the teams and showcase it as Madrid team. They did absolute nothing noteworthy in their respective league and to lay any claims of greatness they have to go to the inaugural football seasons some 80 years back under the fascist Spanish government to even make a case. So please stop this crap Madrid thing here. Vile Club that continues to leach other La Liga teams and deny sporting parity.
 
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I think one of the reasons fergie retired was he could see the writing was on the wall long term. In every walk of life big spending beats little spending. Now we have had Chelsea spell and a City spell. Before them it was Liverpool Utd Blackburn for a season Newcastle and Arsenal. With the last three as soon as the money dropped off, so did they.
What Pep has done is shown with money he can create the best teams in every league he has managed in. If City had have had the owners and pep in from the turn of the century, they would have had the record Premier titles and a few more Ch lges
 
Amar__ said:
It's quite amazing that some people agree with this months after he's won everything with club that cheated their way to glory. Also isn't his Barca period in question too based on those referees scandals?
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He's definitely changed football but the guy went from an unbelievable Barca side, to a stacked Bayern to a City that could give him anything he wanted, can't shake the feeling that he's had a lot more advantages than most if not all managers on the list of greats.
 
united_99 said:
The entire post is a car crash, but especially the bolded part. A much lesser manager Ole beat Pep several times, but somehow SAF wouldn’t.
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Shallow post. Ole had no football philosophy. The only thing he did was camp and counter. To compare Ole to SAF is a joke at any level. Ole beat Pep several times and got fired, what's that got to do with anything.

All great managers stick to their football philosophy and its an insult to them to tweak their philosophy just to win. SAF/Pep/Klopp etc would never just camp to win, (do an Ole) as they are all managing greats. SAF wouldn't just camp and counter and if he did that I am certain he would have had more CL titles but that would go against his football philosophy (its like him agreeing that he is a lesser manager than Pep). What we saw in 2009 is a genuine clash of two styles of football, SAF's world class attacking threat with proper wingers beating their man and bombing the channels and cutting in vs Pep's possession control based incisive football. Pep's philosophy was superior.
 
Amir said:
Then I go on another thread and see people claim that Klopp underachieved because he only won one league title....

Pep did brilliantly to construct a team that won so many games and won so many points. Klopp did brilliantly to do the same with a lesser budget.
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Iker Quesadillas said:
I'm not really sure why this is supposed to be a negative. The first of these two was won with 98 points. The PL record (as well as in all major leagues, iirc) is 100 points.
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My point is that Guardiola is a fantastic manager in the same vein as someone like Klopp. The poster's original point was of a scenario where a manager could have unlimited funds and that Guardiola would win 9/10 is ludicrous when he's so was close to losing a title twice against a similarly fantastic manager with much less resources.

iamking said:
Klopp literally says Pep is better than him every single time. Klopp's style could be anti-thesis to Pep's doesnt mean he is a better manager than him. Its how dominant the style is against most managers and Pep has had the most dominant football philosophy from the moment he took office at Barca. Explain why He under delivered at Bayern?
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Klopp was as dominant against other sides if not more, reaching the Champions League final 3 separate times, won 1 Premier League and got pipped to another two titles by only a single point with much less resources. He's not 'just' the antithesis of Guardiola, he's more than his equal, except Klopp couldn't replace Gomez, Van Dijk, Matip etc when they got their injuries with another 60m+ transfers (Stones>Laporte>Dias>Gvardiol) the same way City could. That's just talking about their defence. Klopp and Liverpool obviously had/have money and they did spend but their number of hit rates must be exponentially higher because they don't have 115 charges to contend with how they 'generate' funds.

Now I'm going away from my initial argument and perhaps I've projected a bit much to say whatever Klopp has achieved would be similarly achieved by Fergie in this day and age but this 9/10 times is hyperbole. The one time Guardiola has had to play in a level playing field like at Bayern, he under delivered with consistent European failures; heck look at his earlier City campaigns. Truth be told, if you just said 6/10, I probably would have just read and carried on my day without replying.
 
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