Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?

[BuzzKillington]

There are probably three types of success that are usually revered in a manager and that will get them spoken about as all time greats. Number of trophies, influence on how the game is being played and a pure romantic story of doing something special against the odds. The first two command the most respect from the footballing fraternity when you consider how highly viewed people like Sacchi, Michels and Cruyff. The third category is bigger in the UK than the rest of Europe because of how the clubs are setup but also because the culture of the country loves the whole fight against the odds thing and bleed for the cause. The likes of Clough are perfect examples of that. Our Sir Alex ticks two boxes, the first and third whereas Pep has the distinction of being the only influencer who also has big numbers. British football culture has always been different, some would say insolent to the rest of the world which I think is the reason many of us love it. By its parameteres, Sir Alex is the ultimate manager, for the rest of Europe, Pep would probably be viewed as ticking more boxes. Globaly speaking they're both easily in the top 5 of their field.

I’d say Sir Alex kind of partially ticks box two as well. You have to remember before he came along Liverpool had dominated England and Europe for two decades by going 1-0 up then spending the rest of the game passing it back to the keeper. It became that dull they had to introduce the back pass law.

United were wild and a breath of fresh air when we first got back into Europe again. Probably similar to Klopps gegenpress recently, everything was breathless and rapid.

 

[zonaldefending]

Michels, Cruyff, Sacchi, Pep all changed the way the world looks at football. That will be his legacy along with (most likely if he doesn't stop being a manager) winning the most major trophies of any manager ever.

 

[RedRocket9908]

My point is that Guardiola is a fantastic manager in the same vein as someone like Klopp. The poster's original point was of a scenario where a manager could have unlimited funds and that Guardiola would win 9/10 is ludicrous when he's so was close to losing a title twice against a similarly fantastic manager with much less resources.

It is wrong to put Pep in the same bracket as someone like Jurgen Klopp as Klopp earnt the right to be called one of the worlds best managers by starting from the bottom and working his way to the top while Pep has only ever managed the best squads with the biggest budgets.

Pep took 7 attempts to win the Champions League with City despite inheriting a squad the reached the semis the previous season and being given an unlimited transfer budget while Klopp reached the final on his first attempt with Liverpool and won it on his second despite inheriting a much poorer squad and limited transfer budget.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

The first state run football team and if you don't know this you should read about General Franco.

Please do tell me about the Franco biographies that have chapters on how he ran Real Madrid.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

It is wrong to put Pep in the same bracket as someone like Jurgen Klopp as Klopp earnt the right to be called one of the worlds best managers by starting from the bottom and working his way to the top while Pep has only ever managed the best squads with the biggest budgets.

Pep took 7 attempts to win the Champions League with City despite inheriting a squad the reached the semis the previous season and being given an unlimited transfer budget while Klopp reached the final on his first attempt with Liverpool and won it on his second despite inheriting a much poorer squad and limited transfer budget.

Rafa Benitez won the CL in his first attempt at Liverpool, after having won a league title in Spain managing a team that isn't Real Madrid or Barcelona, but presumably you don't think he's one of the world's best managers.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I understand Ferguson>Guardiola, it's a totally sensible argument and especially so in a Manchester United forum.

But Klopp>Guardiola...sorry, no chance.

 

[RedRocket9908]

Rafa Benitez won the CL in his first attempt at Liverpool, after having won a league title in Spain managing a team that isn't Real Madrid or Barcelona, but presumably you don't think he's one of the world's best managers.

Rafa was one of the best managers at that time, he also worked his way up from the bottom and did well to win the Champions League with Liverpool in an era where English football was dominated by big spending Chelsea and prime Mourinho.

 

[Member 117152]

In my lifetime Sir Alex and Mourinho always were FAR more interesting. The way they won trebles and big titles tended to be as underdog which I respect so much.

Granted they didn’t win as much as Pep or reinvent the game but something about his football is soulless these days after Barcelona.

 

[Hammondo]

I’d say Sir Alex kind of partially ticks box two as well. You have to remember before he came along Liverpool had dominated England and Europe for two decades by going 1-0 up then spending the rest of the game passing it back to the keeper. It became that dull they had to introduce the back pass law.

United were wild and a breath of fresh air when we first got back into Europe again. Probably similar to Klopps gegenpress recently, everything was breathless and rapid.

In what way did he change how the game was played?

 

[Hammondo]

It is wrong to put Pep in the same bracket as someone like Jurgen Klopp as Klopp earnt the right to be called one of the worlds best managers by starting from the bottom and working his way to the top while Pep has only ever managed the best squads with the biggest budgets.

Pep took 7 attempts to win the Champions League with City despite inheriting a squad the reached the semis the previous season and being given an unlimited transfer budget while Klopp reached the final on his first attempt with Liverpool and won it on his second despite inheriting a much poorer squad and limited transfer budget.

I agree he's not done well enough in the CL with City, but he hasn't had a unlimited transfer budget, he's clearly had limits and mostly found bargains rather than bought big.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I agree he's not done well enough in the CL with City, but he hasn't had a unlimited transfer budget, he's clearly had limits and mostly found bargains rather than bought big.

Not sure I'd say City go and find bargains...ignoring they cheated, they do tend to get "good" prices for players but they top the wage bills and agent fees and it will be very interesting to see the details of the 115 charges because a lot of them are in relation to financials in one way or another.

 

[Hammondo]

Not sure I'd say City go and find bargains...ignoring they cheated, they do tend to get "good" prices for players but they top the wage bills and agent fees and it will be very interesting to see the details of the 115 charges because a lot of them are in relation to financials in one way or another.

It's not that they get good prices for players, it's that they very rarely go for big names, usually for players not discussed on the cafe as possible targets, and when the reports say a club asks for lots of money, they stop their interest.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Rafa was one of the best managers at that time, he also worked his way up from the bottom

I think that's a disputable charaterization.

Benitez had a thin resume and limited record, managing teams whose goal was promotion / avoiding relegation. He went from promoting Tenerife to getting the job at Valencia, a club that had just played a CL final. The fans did not like it; per this article, one said: "We are a Primera (first division) club, one of the greats of Europe, we cannot hire a manager from Segunda (second division)."

As far as shocking promotions go, it's not that far removed from Guardiola to Barcelona.

 

[united_99]

Shallow post. Ole had no football philosophy. The only thing he did was camp and counter. To compare Ole to SAF is a joke at any level. Ole beat Pep several times and got fired, what's that got to do with anything.

All great managers stick to their football philosophy and its an insult to them to tweak their philosophy just to win. SAF/Pep/Klopp etc would never just camp to win, (do an Ole) as they are all managing greats. SAF wouldn't just camp and counter and if he did that I am certain he would have had more CL titles but that would go against his football philosophy (its like him agreeing that he is a lesser manager than Pep). What we saw in 2009 is a genuine clash of two styles of football, SAF's world class attacking threat with proper wingers beating their man and bombing the channels and cutting in vs Pep's possession control based incisive football. Pep's philosophy was superior.

Another car crash post, you are on a roll. To start with, no one compared SAF to Ole. Bye.

 

[tomaldinho1]

It's not that they get good prices for players, it's that they very rarely go for big names, usually for players not discussed on the cafe as possible targets, and when the reports say a club asks for lots of money, they stop their interest.

Yeah they often don’t go into a bidding war, helps having an actual DoF I guess!

 

[kaiser1]

It is wrong to put Pep in the same bracket as someone like Jurgen Klopp as Klopp earnt the right to be called one of the worlds best managers by starting from the bottom and working his way to the top while Pep has only ever managed the best squads with the biggest budgets.

Klopp has worked in clubs where he can play the underdog. And not under any pressure to win every trophy? Klopp has had a few trophyless seasons but he is not under any pressure. How will Klopp fare at Bayern, Barcelona Madrid? Clubs who must win every season and many times just winning is not even enough? We never know

We have seen many underdog team coaches fail spectacularly when they get to clubs with expectations

 

[iamking]

Please do tell me about the Franco biographies that have chapters on how he ran Real Madrid.

It's a pretty well known fact that Madrid was the first state owned club under Generalisimo regime. I am not your dad, I can't teach you these things in detail, May be you can do some research and find out yourself how the despicable madrid gained their advantage over other clubs in Spain.

Also,
1. it is an undeniable fact that Madrid 'bought' their way to success much like what City or PSG is doing today (cue galacticos) and the only reason its not called out is because its a part of the establishment.
2. How can anybody shamelessly ignore the La Liga disparity to hail Madrid's achievement as anything significant is beyond me. Madrid singlehandedly killed the league and today begging the English Clubs for ESL to continue their charade.

Challenge these points. Tell me this is not true and why?

 

[Swordsman]

Klopp has worked in clubs where he can play the underdog. And not under any pressure to win every trophy? Klopp has had a few trophyless seasons but he is not under any pressure. How will Klopp fare at Bayern, Barcelona Madrid? Clubs who must win every season and many times just winning is not even enough? We never know

We have seen many underdog team coaches fail spectacularly when they get to clubs with expectations

moyes, potter comes to my mind..

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

It's a pretty well known fact that Madrid was the first state owned club under Generalisimo regime. I am not your dad, I can't teach you these things in detail, May be you can do some research and find out yourself how the despicable madrid gained their advantage over other clubs in Spain.

It's not a well-known fact at all because it isn't true. You're ignorantly repeating a half-remembered rant you heard at a bar once.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

SAF is probably the best at taking a mixed group of players- World-class ones, great ones, decent ones... and making them a sum that can conquer world football. Klopp is of the same mold, but they can't be compared.

Pep is probably the best at taking an already great group of players and squeezing 2-3 extra levels out of them, taking them to historical playing level and sometimes point tallies.

It's not something popular to write on a United forum, but-
While it's probably accepted that United under SAF never reached the footballing heights (level, not trophies) of Pep's Barca,
What's more debatable is that we also never reached the peak levels of Pep's best City teams [his treble-winning team wasn't his absolute best, ability-wise].

If you take one of the midtable English teams- be it West Brom, as an example-

I'd say that before kickoff, they have maybe 15% chance percent of beating SAF's best United teams.
Against Pep's best City teams, the chance will be slightly lower, let's say 10%.

The margins are not great but they're still there.

I think neither could have done what the other has done.

Now, if you factor in the fact that City are most probably (can we say fecking definitely?) cheating,
And that SAF probably did almost alone what Pep, Soriano, and Txiki do together....

I know who I'd choose, even if I'm biased.

I believe SAF could achieve success on a much broader scale of starting conditions than Pep.
But given a very specific working environment, Pep is able to produce football that I can't imagine SAF producing.
You don't even have to be entertained by it, I certainly am not. but it's just harder to play against.

Maybe that's the coach vs manager debate...

 

[Acrobat7]

It's not a well-known fact at all because it isn't true. You're ignorantly repeating a half-remembered rant you heard at a bar once.

Wait for the "They sold their training grounds to the city for 500m" line.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

I always feel in a minority whenever I give Pep credit for elevating the levels of Xavi, Iniesta, Dani Alves. and to a lesser extent Pique, Puyol,

I think that Pep has a lot to do with the fact that Xavi, Iniesta, and Busquets will be remembered as historical players, and not "only" as greats of their clubs or country. Same with KDB. He wouldn't be talked about as the best AM ever in English football- as I've seen claimed- if he played under a different manager.

Pep needs great players to begin with, but once he has them, his football enables many players- but especially midfielders with an attacking nous and an eye for a pass- to turn into monsters.

I strongly disagree with the notion that he already had an unbelievable Barca side before he came. He made them what they were (and some refs, apparently.. hehe).

With Messi I'm less certain what Pep's influence was on his development. he was unreal before Pep came. who knows, maybe he still would have fulfilled his potential with a lesser manager in those 4 years of his career. It certainly helped that he played in what was the best team in the world. But ability-wise wise it really doesn't look like he ever needed that much coaching.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I always feel in a minority whenever I give Pep credit for elevating the levels of Xavi, Iniesta, Dani Alves. and to a lesser extent Pique, Puyol,

I think that Pep has a lot to do with the fact that Xavi, Iniesta, and Busquets will be remembered as historical players, and not "only" as greats of their clubs or country. Same with KDB. He wouldn't be talked about as the best AM ever in English football- as I've seen claimed- if he played under a different manager.

Pep needs great players to begin with, but once he has them, his football enables many players- but especially midfielders with an attacking nous and an eye for a pass- to turn into monsters.

I strongly disagree with the notion that he already had an unbelievable Barca side before he came. He made them what they were (and some refs, apparently.. hehe).

With Messi I'm less certain what Pep's influence was on his development. he was unreal before Pep came. who knows, maybe he still would have fulfilled his potential with a lesser manager in those 4 years of his career. It certainly helped that he played in what was the best team in the world. But ability-wise wise it really doesn't look like he ever needed that much coaching.

Messi was always going to be other-worldly in all likelihood, but Pep did help him change his nutrition if I recall correctly. It led to far less nagging injuries for him.

You could also argue Messi's best versions of himself were under Pep.

 

[Rob]

Guardiola's quite clearly one of the best ever.

But it would be interesting to see him manage a relative underdog like an Atletico Madrid, Dortmund or Milan.

 

[Andersonson]

It's difficult to rate a manager from every era in every league and nation. But he is the greatest one in the premier leagues history for sure.

With SAF second and Wenger 3

 

[Righteous Steps]

Klopp has worked in clubs where he can play the underdog. And not under any pressure to win every trophy? Klopp has had a few trophyless seasons but he is not under any pressure. How will Klopp fare at Bayern, Barcelona Madrid? Clubs who must win every season and many times just winning is not even enough? We never know

We have seen many underdog team coaches fail spectacularly when they get to clubs with expectations

How would Klopp fare at Bayern? He would win the league like every other manager.. Same thing at Madrid, there is hardly any pressure being a top manager in a lopsided league, it’s a bizarre argument actually to think Klopp wouldn’t do as well as Xavi at the very least.

 

[Righteous Steps]

Guardiola is the best coach of his time that’s the best way to sum things up, would he go down as the greatest ever when all said and done? Most probably, context isn’t always applied when people make such sweeping statements.

 

[Gehrman]

In what way did he change how the game was played?

He won a league title with Anderson and tom Cleverly which all of Europe tried to emulate. We are still trying with Fred.

 

[RedRocket9908]

It's difficult to rate a manager from every era in every league and nation. But he is the greatest one in the premier leagues history for sure.

With SAF second and Wenger 3

He is not even the best manager in the league at the moment in my opinion, he has just been lucky to have only had the jobs he has had and to have been in charge of the richest club in the premier league during an era where the quality of it has been the one of poorist its ever been with all the other top clubs except Liverpool struggling, in transition, or rebuilding.

 

[Gehrman]

Klopp has worked in clubs where he can play the underdog. And not under any pressure to win every trophy? Klopp has had a few trophyless seasons but he is not under any pressure. How will Klopp fare at Bayern, Barcelona Madrid? Clubs who must win every season and many times just winning is not even enough? We never know

We have seen many underdog team coaches fail spectacularly when they get to clubs with expectations

At Dortmund he won league titles against Bayern only to have Lewandowski and Goetze running down their contracts to join bayern on a free after the cl final. On top of that Dortmund was a feeder club to Man utd for instance. Id say trying to stay 1st when your rivals and biggest clubs elsewhere is far more difficult than managing the biggest club in the country and yeah be expected to win.

 

[Amir]

I always feel in a minority whenever I give Pep credit for elevating the levels of Xavi, Iniesta, Dani Alves. and to a lesser extent Pique, Puyol,

I think that Pep has a lot to do with the fact that Xavi, Iniesta, and Busquets will be remembered as historical players, and not "only" as greats of their clubs or country. Same with KDB. He wouldn't be talked about as the best AM ever in English football- as I've seen claimed- if he played under a different manager.

Pep needs great players to begin with, but once he has them, his football enables many players- but especially midfielders with an attacking nous and an eye for a pass- to turn into monsters.

Yeah, I agree. Saying he always had money to spend is nice and all, but money isn't any good if you don't use it well to get the right players and work well with him.

Case in point: Manchester United, since 2013. But there are also many others.

 

[Amir]

He is not even the best manager in the league at the moment in my opinion, he has just been lucky to have only had the jobs he has had and to have been in charge of the richest club in the premier league during an era where the quality of it has been the one of poorist its ever been with all the other top clubs except Liverpool struggling, in transition, or rebuilding.

He's been lucky to get the Barcelona job with little experience.

Since then, he's been making his own luck. There's a reason Bayern went for him, there's a reason City went for him when they could have gotten almost anyone.

 

[heraklion]

How would Klopp fare at Bayern? He would win the league like every other manager.. Same thing at Madrid, there is hardly any pressure being a top manager in a lopsided league, it’s a bizarre argument actually to think Klopp wouldn’t do as well as Xavi at the very least.

No, Real won La Liga only twice in 9 years when Ronaldo was playing despite being coached by Ancelotti, Mourinho, Pellegrini, Benitez, Zidane etc. not as easy as it seems..

Ancelotti, one of the greatest managers of all time, has only one Serie A title in 12 years (Milan-Juventus-Parma) though he won the PL right away when he came to PL, so you never know..

 

[heraklion]

He's been lucky to get the Barcelona job with little experience.

Since then, he's been making his own luck. There's a reason Bayern went for him, there's a reason City went for him when they could have gotten almost anyone.

It's easy to see that Pep can be the medicine to all United problems.. almost a certainty that if he starts at United and gets enough financial support (which he will at a club like United), United will be back to its glorious days.. You cannot claim the same for any other manager with the same level of certainty.. That's what makes him stand out..

 

[Hammondo]

He won a league title with Anderson and tom Cleverly which all of Europe tried to emulate. We are still trying with Fred.

In what way did they try to emulate it? I cannot tell if you are joking.

 

[Gehrman]

In what way did they try to emulate it? I cannot tell if you are joking.

Srry. Of course i was joking.

 

[RedRocket9908]

It's easy to see that Pep can be the medicine to all United problems.. almost a certainty that if he starts at United and gets enough financial support (which he will at a club like United), United will be back to its glorious days.. You cannot claim the same for any other manager with the same level of certainty.. That's what makes him stand out..

Pep would struggle at Man Utd as he wouldnt be inheriting an already top quality side with massive funds to buy more players like he has at the 3 clubs he has managed so far.

 

[Hammondo]

Srry. Of course i was joking.

Kinda knew it, but you can never be 100 percent sure m

 

[Camara]

It's easy to see that Pep can be the medicine to all United problems.. almost a certainty that if he starts at United and gets enough financial support (which he will at a club like United), United will be back to its glorious days.. You cannot claim the same for any other manager with the same level of certainty.. That's what makes him stand out..

How can you be sure he will succeed in a club that is not in an ideal/good situation? He never did it, others actually have. You cannot claim he can do it with any level of certainty.

 

[Care_de_Bobo]

Messi was always going to be other-worldly in all likelihood, but Pep did help him change his nutrition if I recall correctly. It led to far less nagging injuries for him.

You could also argue Messi's best versions of himself were under Pep.

I'm sure it was Pep telling him to eat his 5 a day that helped and not all the growth hormones pumped into him as a teenager. The kid was tearing it up at the age of 16, he would have been fine without Pep.

Pep doesn't need any extra bigging up for the likes of Xavi, Iniesta and Messi. The first two were already fresh of winning a European Championship medal with Spain(Xavi won player of the tournament) when he took over and all three of them already had CL winners medals from their time with Rijkaard.

Can people not just accept that it's mostly the players that win trophies, not the managers. It's not a miracle to be able to win a CL with a front three of Messi, Henry and Eto'o backed up by a midfield of Xavi and Iniesta, a warrior like Puyol at the back and Dani Alves who had won back to back UEFA Cups and recorded 14 assists for Seville before he joined Barca.

He also didn't revolutionise the game. Did he invent the false 9? No. Did he invent 433? No. Did he invent attacking fullbacks? No. Did he invent possession football? No. Did he invent the triangle? No. You'd think he'd invented the game itself the way people go on about him. Please watch the Overmars goal vs Liverpool in 2001 with a player named Xavi providing the assist to see that this was the football Barca had played for years and Pep just happened to have far superior players at his disposal when he was manager.

He's a very good coach, but he's not some visionary like people like to make out, he has simply always had better players than the opposition which will always make his tactics look better. Despite always having superior players at his disposal, he has messed up numerous CL ties against vastly inferior opposition and has never had his teams punching above their weight like a Klopp or Mourinho.

Soon we'll be hearing how he turned Haaland into a goalscoring machine or something, I swear.