Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?

[André Dominguez]

The record books will say it all. The books don’t care about Don Revie or anything George Graham might have done. It doesn’t even say Matt Busby got off his death bed and ultimately built a side which went on the achieve the dream of those who perished.

It just lists their achievements.

Unfortunately for the regular fan this is it. Many managers who were very important for the history of this sport are neglected.

Arrigo Sacchi is basically the father of what people call now "modern football" (high defensive line, aggressive pressing, zonal marking, more emphasis on the attack, etc), but if you ask any football fan he will probably say that Sacchi was a defensive manager or deployed cartenaccio tactis.
Helenio Herrera was the first to implement a full training schedule that would involve nutrition and training in the gymn and was the first top club manager to use inverted winger along with a mobile forward.
Marcello Lippi showed how important was the team to behave like a cohesive block and not to become disjointed, even during counter-attacks.

But all people will remember is the number of trophies won.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Of his generation, yes without a doubt.

Of all time...I have to see him do it without a chequebook. Manage Aberdeen (you're Spanish, fine, I'll you do it with Celta de Vigo instead) to win over the colossal clubs that dominate your league utterly and win a European in the process and I'll crown you there.

While I agree that Pep lacks what Fergie did with Aberdeen, why would he self-demote?

Who in the history of football has ever taken a far lesser job when they're on the top just to 'prove' something?

 

[Ayoba]

Probably. Can see him winning 10 PL's in a row.

 

[Appletonred]

Absolutely no, not even close, Busby and Clough are ahead of him to name but two.

 

[Scandi Red]

The greatest manager of what? Los Pollos Hermanos?

 

[Baxquux]

If he takes over and gets England to win a 'proper' competition (so WC or EC), then possibly. Right now, still can't see past SAF though (beyond even Shankly, Busby, Ancelotti and his cups, Pep etc) for the most 'complete' manager of all time, and not solely for partisan reasons...

 

[big_jeffstar]

Nah not for me, he’s too much of a cheque book manager, given unlimited funds he’s probably the best I suppose, but he clearly hated having financial restrictions at Bayern, and he’s yet to do it with a team that isn’t already the best in their league anyway.
Having said that, I think City will struggle once he’s gone, he buys players for a very specific system that not many managers can seem to replicate

 

[Gehrman]

While I agree that Pep lacks what Fergie did with Aberdeen, why would he self-demote?

Who in the history of football has ever taken a far lesser job when they're on the top just to 'prove' something?

Of course he wouldn't demote himself. But after Barcelona he only managed a cl more than a decade afterwards managing clubs that were primed to win it. He should have won with city far sooner considering how they have unlimited funds and never lose their players for some weird shady reason. His Barcelona stint was the most impressive. Not because he build the club from scratch but fine tuned it to perfection. Having Messi hitting his prime helped as well.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

He's definitely one of the most influential managers in any sport. You will struggle to find more than a few managers whose philosophies had such a massive impact on the game as a whole. Not even our dear Sir Alex had that.

Funnily, a question popped up, between drinks, the other day: What if you gave him a game a week and told him that the goal is to finish the league with 38/38 wins... would he be able to pull it off? The (our) negative responses didn't sound very confident. That's how good he is. He cuts luck and chance out of football games to an almost suffocating, for the spectator, degree. Klopp isn't like that. Sadly, he's more like SAF in the sense that he, quite often, likes a roll of the dice. But in terms of asserting complete control on a game that chaotic by nature, no one has ever come closer than him. Perhaps Sacchi, who then got fecked by the new offside rule. And we may have a case of history repeating itself here.

What he lacks is a proper football story. I can understand why he left Barcelona. It's an impossible task to overcome the shadow the great Johan Cruyff casts on that club. Probably the greatest football person ever. I'm not sure that he will find it at City unless football, in a few years time, looks like a plaything for oil-states and oligarchs.

 

[Appletonred]

Busby, Clough, Paisley, Ferguson built football dynasties from the roots up, Pep hasn't done that, rather, he has walked into jobs that have all the infrastructure in place to succeed, not diluting his achievements he's clearly a fantastic coach but he is behind those managers listed at the top of this post.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Building a dynasty from the ground up just isn't that important ouside of England.

 

[Revan]

He is going to be the most successful manager of all time, and has been the most influential manager since at least Rinus Michels.

So, I think, definitely yes. Providing that he continues like this for another 10 years, he is going to be remembered in a league of his own.

 

[kaiser1]

Of course he wouldn't demote himself. But after Barcelona he only managed a cl more than a decade afterwards managing clubs that were primed to win it. He should have won with city far sooner considering how they have unlimited funds and never lose their players for some weird shady reason. His Barcelona stint was the most impressive. Not because he build the club from scratch but fine tuned it to perfection. Having Messi hitting his prime helped as well.

Ferguson managed United for 20yrs and won 2 CL.

 

[spiriticon]

Yes, in my lifetime. He had a lot of support other managers wouldn't get but at the same time you can't deny the genius.

 

[Gehrman]

Ferguson managed United for 20yrs and won 2 CL.

If Fergie had spent like it was the richest club in the world as it was became his tenure, he would have won far more cl's

 

[Sylar]

If Fergie had spent like it was the richest club in the world as it was bevame his tenure, he would have won far more cl's

Still annoyed about the no more than 3 foreigners rule and Irish players counting towards that for United.
That was about five years of not being able to compete with the best team available

 

[Irwin99]

Ferguson managed United for 20yrs and won 2 CL.

It's a fair point but i do think English football had to recover a lot in the 90s to catch up with the rest of Europe and the 99 team stagnated with some pretty poor transfer business and not improving. Our tie vs Bayern in 2001 very much indicated the problems with the likes of Silvestre, Barthez, Brown starting, Yorke no longer interested. We just weren't good enough.

In later years Sir Alex had the misfortune of being beaten twice by arguably the best team there's ever been in modern times in two of those finals.

 

[heraklion]

Busby, Clough, Paisley, Ferguson built football dynasties from the roots up, Pep hasn't done that, rather, he has walked into jobs that have all the infrastructure in place to succeed, not diluting his achievements he's clearly a fantastic coach but he is behind those managers listed at the top of this post.

You cannot build football dynasties from the roots up nowadays with all the super clubs, it's impossible. Let's go back to the 3-foreigner rule, yeah, than it might be possible, PL clubs would probably be the worst affected..

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

Building a dynasty from the ground up just isn't that important ouside of England.

Is it even that important in England anymore? And in fairness, Barca had quite a bit of academy players back in the day.

 

[Acrobat7]

Building a dynasty from the ground up just isn't that important ouside of England.

I had to google Clough. No one will have to google Guardiola in 30 years.

 

[el3mel]

Building a dynasty from the ground up just isn't that important ouside of England.

You mean outside of Caf. People on this forum have different standards in evaluating coaches than the rest of the world.

People everywhere evaluate coaches based on football played and trophies won. On Caf, you have to manage Sheffield United and lead them to the treble without spending money.

 

[Steve Bruce]

I had to google Clough. No one will have to google Guardiola in 30 years.

If the media exposure both main and social in the 70s and 80s was the same today you would have known clough.

What clough did would have been the equivalent to Leicester winning the league then winning the following 2 champions leagues. An amazing achievement that probably won't be replicated.

Not to mention he built a team and won the league at Derby County

 

[Hammondo]

If Fergie had spent like it was the richest club in the world as it was became his tenure, he would have won far more cl's

Well he spent quite a lot on that
2008 squad, I don't see the excuse, did he lack the players? We had some amazing squads and I don't think a bit more money would have made much of a difference.

 

[Amir]

You cannot build football dynasties from the roots up nowadays with all the super clubs, it's impossible.

Exactly. You can only bring a club up - and keep it there - with money.

Football has changed and so is the way we should judge managers.

 

[doomy20]

Busby, Clough, Paisley, Ferguson built football dynasties from the roots up, Pep hasn't done that, rather, he has walked into jobs that have all the infrastructure in place to succeed, not diluting his achievements he's clearly a fantastic coach but he is behind those managers listed at the top of this post.

Not comparable imo, different generations. Maybe he would not be able to achieve what they did and maybe Ferguson, Busby etc. couldn’t do the job he is doing now. All of them are on top within their time and working environment.

 

[Gehrman]

Well he spent quite a lot on that
2008 squad, I don't see the excuse, did he lack the players? We had some amazing squads and I don't think a bit more money would have made much of a difference.

That 2008 squad won a cl and runner up in 2009. Then Ronaldo was sold for a staggering fee and tevez leff on a free and we replaced them with Valencia and Michael Owen. I think if Man Utd was run more like Madrid and Barcelona in Fergies tenure wouldnt have turned down R9, Batistuta etc because of our wage structure and we wouldnt have turned down Hazard because of agent fee's.

 

[Baxquux]

If Fergie had spent like it was the richest club in the world as it was became his tenure, he would have won far more cl's

This. He was up against incredibly financially doped clubs in Italy in the 90s and early 2000s, plus 'The King's Team' Madrid, then Barcelona's miracle generation (and some dogy PEDs, however much that whole late 2000s Spain and Barca issue has been memory-holed).

If United had been taken over by an Abramovich-style figure or Sheikh in the early 2000s, there's a decent chance we'd be looking at a Madrid 2010s style sequence, particularly once he brought in CQ as Assistant...

 

[Hammondo]

That 2008 squad won a cl and runner up in 2009. Then Ronaldo was sold for a staggering fee and tevez leff on a free and we replaced them with Valencia and Michael Owen. I think if Man Utd was run more like Madrid and Barcelona in Fergies tenure wouldnt have turned down R9, Batistuta etc because of our wage structure and we wouldnt have turned down Hazard because of agent fee's.

But we never didn't compete for the top players with anyone outside of RM. We spent a lot, we kept up with them. Our squads were some of the best, I don't see how Pep has had such an easier time.

 

[Cascarino]

Top manager with players that fit his system and a good transfer budget

Would generally get relegated with Everton though

So no

This gets argued a lot but I disagree. Brendan Rodgers took a newly promoted Swansea side to 11th (with Danny Graham leading the line) with a style that was inspired by Guardiola. There’s plenty of cases of managers with a possession philosophy doing well with weaker clubs.

 

[Hammondo]

This gets argued a lot but I disagree. Brendan Rodgers took a newly promoted Swansea side to 11th (with Danny Graham leading the line) with a style that was inspired by Guardiola. There’s plenty of cases of managers with a possession philosophy doing well with weaker clubs.

Generally speaking the whole league has shifted in a possession direction, it's just been proven to work well.

 

[kaiser1]

If Fergie had spent like it was the richest club in the world as it was became his tenure, he would have won far more cl's

Many clubs have outspent Man city without the results to show
I checked the EPL gross spend and net spend for 1yr 5yrs and 10yrs. City did not lead any of those. If we expand to Europe Barcelona nd PSG are likely to even have a higher gross and net spend

 

[kaiser1]

This. He was up against incredibly financially doped clubs in Italy in the 90s and early 2000s, plus 'The King's Team' Madrid, then Barcelona's miracle generation (and some dogy PEDs, however much that whole late 2000s Spain and Barca issue has been memory-holed).
If United had been taken over by an Abramovich-style figure or Sheikh in the early 2000s, there's a decent chance we'd be looking at a Madrid 2010s style sequence, particularly once he brought in CQ as Assistant...

Ferguson also worked in an environment where he had total control, he was not just a coach who will take orders from a Roman or have him dump Shevchenko into his laps. It can be argued that if Ferguson worked with a Roman type figured he could have been fired

 

[Maluco]

Many clubs have outspent Man city without the results to show
I checked the EPL gross spend and net spend for 1yr 5yrs and 10yrs. City did not lead any of those. If we expand to Europe Barcelona nd PSG are likely to even have a higher gross and net spend

This argument needs to stop. All the spending around those official figures makes them a laughable comparison.

They literally have more than 100 charges against them.

They have consistently cheated to win every title they have and Pep is complicit in that.

 

[kaiser1]

This argument needs to stop. All the spending around those official figures makes them a laughable comparison.

They literally have more than 100 charges against them.

They have consistently cheated to win every title they have and Pep is complicit in that.

A player sale/buy involves another club either a seller to City or a buyer from City who also have to report the money paid or received in their own books. Which would mean those clubs have been falsifying their own books as well
What is laughable is thinking the buying/selling clubs are in collusion with City to help them hide money and for what benefit to those clubs?
You probably think Bayern paid less for Sane, and City probably paid more/received less for Kovacic/Sterling than was reported only that Bayern/Chelsea agreed to help City in falsifying the numbers.
Until its proven that they are paying more than the That's almost Q-Anon conspiracy stuff right there

 

[Maluco]

A player sale/buy involves another club either a seller to City or a buyer from City who also have to report the money paid or received in their own books. Which would mean those clubs have been falsifying their own books as well
What is laughable is thinking the selling clubs are in collusion with City to help them hide money and for what benefit to those clubs?
You probably think Bayern paid less for Sane, and City probably paid more/received less for Kovacic/Sterling than was reported only that Bayern/Chelsea agreed to help City in falsifying the numbers.
Until its proven that they are paying more than the That's almost Q-Anon conspiracy stuff right there

Wages, salaries, bonuses, speaking gigs, after dinner talks, football clubs for family etc... It’s not Q-Anon because there is enough stuff out there on top of the charges they are actually facing. They are cheats.

 

[kaiser1]

Wages, salaries, bonuses, speaking gigs, after dinner talks, football clubs for family etc... It’s not Q-Anon because there is enough stuff out there on top of the charges they are actually facing. They are cheats.

When did we start counting those as part of teams gross/net spend transfer fees? When Hojlund was reported for 75m did that include, Wages, Salaries, Bonuses, dinner, flight tickets, hotel tickets, massages?

There are many clubs who have spent more than City in transfer fees without the trophies to show for it
E.g A player signed on a free transfer is reported as 0 but in reality there are millions that will go into that deal despite the 0 reported on the transfer fees

 

[Maluco]

When did we start counting those as part of teams gross/net spend transfer fees? When Hojlund was reported for 75m did that include, Wages, Salaries, Bonuses, dinner, flight tickets, hotel tickets, massages?

There are many clubs who have spent more than City in transfer fees without the trophies to show for it
E.g A player signed on a free transfer is reported as 0 but in reality there are millions that will go into that deal despite the 0 reported on the transfer fees

I think that is very naive to not think that they are spending massively in that area and how much of an advantage things like double salaries gives them. It creates a gulf that can’t be closed.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Of course he wouldn't demote himself. But after Barcelona he only managed a cl more than a decade afterwards managing clubs that were primed to win it. He should have won with city far sooner considering how they have unlimited funds and never lose their players for some weird shady reason. His Barcelona stint was the most impressive. Not because he build the club from scratch but fine tuned it to perfection. Having Messi hitting his prime helped as well.

Winning the CL isn't easy.

SAF only has 2 and would probably say he should have won more too.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Building a dynasty from the ground up just isn't that important ouside of England.

Speak for yourself.

I think it's revered universally and shows something special.

The person who started the empire is always more revered than the person who continued it.

 

[sangria]

When did we start counting those as part of teams gross/net spend transfer fees? When Hojlund was reported for 75m did that include, Wages, Salaries, Bonuses, dinner, flight tickets, hotel tickets, massages?

There are many clubs who have spent more than City in transfer fees without the trophies to show for it
E.g A player signed on a free transfer is reported as 0 but in reality there are millions that will go into that deal despite the 0 reported on the transfer fees

When Man City were shown to have hidden as much expenditure as they've officially reported. Was Mancini paid £2.5m for managing City, as reported? Or was he paid at least another £3m, which was what he paid in a sidejob by the same employers that was totally unrelated to his football job, which occupied something like 2-3 days/year? Similarly with Guardiola, whose brother owns a club that's part-owned by City's owners. Haaland and agent fees that amount to his transfer fee, etc. And how much Mancini-style money are their players paid?